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The disappeared

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  • #62
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    alastair wrote: »
    Who lost their war. Which puts them pretty far down the pecking order of success, by any reasonable measure.

    Considering the British have agreed to return the six counties to Irish control. I would say that not only did a small band of brave Irish men and women beat one of the largest armies in the world. They also had the decency to accept the British surrender, without requiring the triumphalist chest beating that accompanies the loyalist victories of battles that took place hundreds of years ago.


  • #63
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    alastair wrote: »
    Of course. The 1916 rebellion had no popular mandate - they were not representing anyone but themselves. That politicians aligned with 1916 subsequently gained a significant mandate is true, as is the reality that the Provos did not.

    Doing the right thing isn't always the most popular thing. The IRA were not looking to win a popularity competition, they were putting right a wrong


  • #64
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    grainnewhale wrote: »
    Considering the British have agreed to return the six counties to Irish control. I would say that not only did a small band of brave Irish men and women beat one of the largest armies in the world. They also had the decency to accept the British surrender, without requiring the triumphalist chest beating that accompanies the loyalist victories of battles that took place hundreds of years ago.

    You'd be mistaken then. The British have agreed to nothing but to accede to the will of the people of NI. The Scottish have exactly the same deal - and no-one was murdered and disposed of amongst a veil of lies for that to happen.


  • #65
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    alastair wrote: »
    Of course. The 1916 rebellion had no popular mandate - they were not representing anyone but themselves. That politicians aligned with 1916 subsequently gained a significant mandate is true, as is the reality that the Provos did not.

    They represent the majorty in 4 of the six counties in the north and a sizable porpotion of the other 2,
    When voting systems are doctored to suit one side (as was the case in the six counties for decades) the puppet regime in place has no credibility.


  • #66
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    They represent the majorty in 4 of the six counties in the north and a sizable porpotion of the other 2,
    When voting systems are doctored to suit one side (as was the case in the six counties for decades) the puppet regime in place has no credibility.

    The Provos never sought, let alone gained any political mandate. If you mean post-armed-campaign SF - then that's quite another matter - they never got anywhere near the same vote while they supported a campaign of violence. That they inherited the SDLP franchise once they copped on to themselves tells you everything you need to know about what the will of the people is.


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  • #67
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    alastair wrote: »
    The Provos never sought, let alone gained any political mandate. If you mean post-armed-campaign SF - then that's quite another matter - they never got anywhere near the same vote while they supported a campaign of violence. That they inherited the SDLP franchise once they copped on to themselves tells you everything you need to know about what the will of the people is.

    Usually anti SF poster here dont distinguish between Provos and SF,
    I think you will find a lot more factors than a shift from SF to SDLP
    take for instance the four counties in the south west of the six counties,
    even before SF stood for elections the SDLP could never gain them, yet within a few years they have a rebublican majority,
    If you check the data you will see that these seats were inherited from unionists,


  • #68
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Usually anti SF poster here dont distinguish between Provos and SF,
    I think you will find a lot more factors than a shift from SF to SDLP
    take for instance the four counties in the south west of the six counties,
    even before SF stood for elections the SDLP could never gain them, yet within a few years they have a rebublican majority,

    Because the SDLP vote shifted over to SF - for exactly the reasons I specified. Clearly a split vote will not result in a majority.


  • #69
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    alastair wrote: »
    Because the SDLP vote shifted over to SF - for exactly the reasons I specified. Clearly a split vote will not result in a majority.
    A majority of what?


  • #70
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    The IRA are no country, and didn't represent any country. You've clearly missed the point where those 'fighting for complete freedom' finally got the message that they had no mandate, and that their 'war' was a pointless exercise. And the 'we' is everyone who weights Nuala O'Loans investigation with more credibility than continued lies from the iRA.

    What makes you believe Nuala O'Loan?


  • #71
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    A majority of what?

    Voters within a constituency.


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  • #72
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What makes you believe Nuala O'Loan?

    She's an impartial professional with more information available to her, with which to form an unbiased judgement. As opposed to a bunch of self-confessed liars.


  • #73
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    She's an impartial professional with more information available to her, with which to form an unbiased judgement. As opposed to a bunch of self-confessed liars.

    What evidence did she present?


  • #74
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What evidence did she present?

    What evidence had anyone presented? She had access to military and RUC records from the period, and interviewed the broadest range of witnesses and investigators. Which gives her rather more credibility than the alternative pub talk narrative from the bunch who murdered her and claimed to know nothing about it for thirty years.


  • #75
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    What evidence had anyone presented? She had access to military and RUC records from the period, and interviewed the broadest range of witnesses and investigators. Which gives her rather more credibility than the alternative pub talk narrative from the bunch who murdered her and claimed to know nothing about it for thirty years.

    I asked you a specific question, what evidence did Baroness Nuala O'Loan OBE, the impartial observer present?


  • #76
    first doyle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 42 ✭first doyle


    junder wrote: »
    Having watched the disappeard on bbc4 last night, we have Deloris price, darkie Hughes claiming Adams ordered the death of jean mcconville, we also have vetern ira commander billy McKee claming that Adams was indeed oc in the pira and responsable for the death of jean mcconville. People tend to focus on jean mcconville because of her being a mother of ten, the programme highlighted that we tend to forget the other 'disappeared' as well.



    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hcfdm


    Like Robert Nairac who was a member of the the FRU which infamously colluded with British Loyalist death squads? Why should the Irish public be concerned about his whereabouts considering the damage his group done?


  • #77
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I asked you a specific question, what evidence did Baroness Nuala O'Loan OBE, the impartial observer present?

    You were given a specific answer. If you believe her OBE undermines her competency or impartiality, then why not spell out your evidence for such a belief. Otherwise it's just so much more hot air and diversion. Keep in mind we know that those who claimed she was an informer were liars - by their own eventual admission.


  • #78
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    You were given a specific answer. If you believe her OBE undermines her competency or impartiality, then why not spell out your evidence for such a belief. Otherwise it's just so much more hot air and diversion. Keep in mind we know that those who claimed she was an informer were liars - by their own eventual admission.

    What evidence did she present?, simple question.


  • #79
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What evidence did she present?, simple question.

    Equally simple answer - feel free to review if you missed it first time.


  • #80
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Equally simple answer - feel free to review if you missed it first time.

    Ok, I'll answer for you. She could find NO evidence that Jean McConville was an informer.
    Does that mean she wasn't? Of course it doesn't, it just means no evidence exists of a murky practice.
    Because if it does mean she definitely wasn't then we must reach the same conclusion about Gerry Adams and his alleged membership of the IRA and ordering Mrs McConvilles death.
    You and Nuala and the RUC can find NO evidence of that either.


  • #81
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Ok, I'll answer for you. She could find NO evidence that Jean McConville was an informer.
    Does that mean she wasn't? Of course it doesn't, it just means no evidence exists of a murky practice.
    Because if it does mean she definitely wasn't then we must reach the same conclusion about Gerry Adams and his alleged membership of the IRA and ordering Mrs McConvilles death.
    You and Nuala and the RUC can find NO evidence of that either.

    She found no evidence to support the claim she was an informer - and she had access to contemporaneous military records.

    She's got a solid record of professionalism and impartiality.

    The IRA never produced any evidence in support of their claim. They are also proven liars, with a serious credibility problem.

    I know who I believe, just as I know who I believe in relation to the evidence relating to Pat Finucane's murder.


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  • #82
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    She found no evidence to support the claim she was an informer - and she had access to contemporaneous military records.

    She's got a solid record of professionalism and impartiality.

    The IRA never produced any evidence in support of their claim. They are also proven liars, with a serious credibility problem.

    I know who I believe, just as I know who I believe in relation to the evidence relating to Pat Finucane's murder.

    I am not asking who you believe or about what the IRA said.


    She found NO evidence that the woman was a British agent.

    Does that mean she definitely wasn't Alastair?


  • #83
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I am not asking who you believe or about what the IRA said.

    I think you'll find you were.


  • #84
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    I think you'll find you were.


    Can't bring yourself to answer?


  • #85
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Can't bring yourself to answer?

    Not my fault you can't remember what you've asked. I've answered your questions, while you play at pedantry.


  • #86
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Not my fault you can't remember what you've asked. I've answered your questions, while you play at pedantry.

    :D

    Does finding NO evidence mean she was definitely not an British Agent?


  • #87
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    :D

    Does finding NO evidence mean she was definitely not an British Agent?

    The evidence was reviewed and rejected by an impartial investigation - don't know what more you really expect? If you want to get into the whole 'you can't disprove a negative' game - then feel free to entertain yourself - the rest of us will draw the conclusions that the proponants of claim and counter-claim warrant.


  • #88
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    The evidence was reviewed and rejected by an impartial investigation - don't know what more you really expect? If you want to get into the whole 'you can't disprove a negative' game - then feel free to entertain yourself - the rest of us will draw the conclusions that the proponants of claim and counter-claim warrant.



    Does finding NO evidence mean she was definitely not an British Agent?

    Whenever you are ready.


  • #89
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Does finding NO evidence mean she was definitely not an British Agent?

    Whenever you are ready.

    Whenever you're ready to deal with my answer, let me know. I'm not interested in playing games.


  • #90
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,525 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    I assume the bodies are unrecognizable after so many years, they use DNA to identify them?

    And as mentioned, no information has emerged, there has just been a new documentary?


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  • #91
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Whenever you're ready to deal with my answer, let me know. I'm not interested in playing games.

    You know exactly why you won't answer the question and so does anybody else with any sense on the thread.
    You disappoint me Alastair.


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