So there's this guy...

EuropeanSon · 08-11-2013 01:24PM

Tyson never beat a great fighter. I could name 40 boxers I'd have ahead of him on a pound for pound list, and at least 10 heavyweights.
Heavyweights:
Louis
Ali
Holmes
Marciano
Frazier
Liston
Foreman
Holyfield
Norton
Lewis

A case could be made for either or both of the Klitschko brothers too, and a few pre-Louis fighters who I don't really want to discuss as I've never really seen them, but they have stellar records.

Tyson's reputation is a product of extraordinary media hype, and a very poor heavyweight division at the start of his career.

Too Tough To Die · 08-11-2013 01:29PM

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Tyson never beat a great fighter. I could name 40 boxers I'd have ahead of him on a pound for pound list, and at least 10 heavyweights.
Heavyweights:
Louis
Ali
Holmes
Marciano
Frazier
Liston
Foreman
Holyfield
Norton
Lewis

A case could be made for either or both of the Klitschko brothers too, and a few pre-Louis fighters who I don't really want to discuss as I've never really seen them, but they have stellar records.

Tyson's reputation is a product of extraordinary media hype, and a very poor heavyweight division at the start of his career.

No. No it couldn't.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 08-11-2013 01:34PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think Wahlberg is supposed to have spoken out about regretting it etc

I don't know if we're talking about GN or his post but he had come out about regretting both.

Interesting stuff from him about his past actually. I'll try post if I can get to a computer later.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 08-11-2013 01:35PM

emmabrighton wrote: »

Really??? Ah, yeah... no... obviously not... I didn't know it was a wind up so it just completely turned me off him...

Let's give him another chance! I normally like him in interviews. He's pretty down to earth

Wacker The Attacker · 08-11-2013 01:40PM

Einhard wrote: »

So there's this guy.

He was a bit of a teenage delinquent. Arrested 38 times by the age of 13. Tried as a juvenile for all manner of crimes.

Bit of a scumbag, eh?

Sentenced to six years in prison for raping a teenage girl.

Definitely a scumbag!

Later sentenced to another year in prison for assaulting two motorists in a fit of rage after an accident.

Scumbag, scumbag, scumbag.

Sentenced to 24 hours in jail a decade later for drink driving.

This guy would have some in AH whipped into a righteous frenzy!! There'd be talk about locking him up forever and throwing away the key. Probably even calls for castration and banishment to a desert island. There's definitely mention of the death penalty and scumbags, and how wimpy liberals allow such people to thrive. He'd be called all manner of things, and all manner of punishments demanded. And this wouldn't be confined to AH, but to a lot of people in society. He'd be viewed as an animal, and treated as such.

And yet, he's not. He's widely claimed as an inspiration. On the AH documentary thread, his film was mentioned more than once as a tour de force, and he as an inspiration. When people questioned this, others jumped to the defence of the man. At the moment, he's taking part in an autobiographical world tour, where he basically talks about his life from stage. And there's no shortage of people willing to pay money to listen to the man, and defend him against critics. In the ads for the show, he's described as a living legend, and lots of mention is made of his charitable activities. And his darker side is relegated to "some controversies".

Of course, the man is Mike Tyson. Now, the guy doesn't particularly interest me. I'm not starting this thread to condemn the man. What gets me is people's reaction to him, and the hypocrisy therein. Time after time, people with his type of record are slammed in AH. Let's not forget, he's a convicted rapist; a man with a history of violent assaults; a man who has driven under the influence of alcohol and drugs. Not exactly Mr Nice Guy. Yet some people who'd go to town on lesser-known scumbags give this guy the benefit of the doubt, and make excuses for him. Indeed, some seem to idolise the guy.

Why is this? Probably because he's a celebrity. As with the rapist Roman Polanski, people seem willing to forgive celebrities anything. Maybe the next time though, that they slam some ordinary scumbag, people should think about the scumbags that they adore and idolise. Shouldn't all scumbags be treated equally??

TL/DR? No need to post.

Youre only speaking nicely about him because otherwise he'd eat your scrotum

RainMaker · 08-11-2013 01:41PM

Part of the problem with Tyson wasn't his rough upbringing really, it was the fact that for so long he was allowed get away with being a thug.

There were many sexual harassment allegations against him before he even reached 18, but it was all swept under the carpet D'Amato and his trainers as they knew he was a future world champion - so basically he came to believe this was acceptable behaviour.

As for the boxing debate, I am really not sure any boxer past or present could have lived with Tyson's speed and power at his peak. Some argue that Ali, etc lived in times when the HW division was more competitive, I won't disagree that it was less competitive by the time Tyson arrived on the scene, but Tyson demolished so many opponents - the fact he had so many first round stoppages I think shows the gap that existed between Tyson and most of his opponents...

His Brad Pitt story is worth listening to if nobody had heard it.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 08-11-2013 01:42PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think Wahlberg is supposed to have spoken out about regretting it etc

he half arsed his way into regretting it publically, then said he forgave himself and put it behind him.

the man he half blinded presumably put it behind him as well, wahlberg never made any effort to find out.

Cold Chocolate · 08-11-2013 01:46PM

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

No. No it couldn't.

Yes it could, peak Vitali was probably the greatest heavyweight of all time.

08-11-2013 01:49PM

With regards to Polanski - like it or not, the guy has produced an immense body of work, despite his.. moral complications.. with the Pianist being one of the greatest and most harrowing World War Two movies in existence.

As for Wahlberg - there's so many actors who have tumultuous pasts that they've overcome; only a few years ago was Robert Downey Jnr. a washed-up alcoholic and drug addict. Now, he's one of the highest earning actors of this generation. Then there's also Mickey Rourke, who was almost left brain damaged, but has come back to fruition lately.

Heck, go back in time and you'll probably see that many iconic painters, sculptures, musicians, composers all had extremely immoral backgrounds.

petes · 08-11-2013 01:49PM

Rocky would kick the **** out of all of them!!

RainMaker · 08-11-2013 01:54PM

petes wrote: »

Rocky would kick the **** out of all of them!!

Not if he fought like he did in his first fight against Clubber Lang

strobe · 08-11-2013 01:59PM

Its possible to separate the person from the work. There's no reason you can't say "I'm inspired by that body of work, guy's a **** of a person though". Amongst boxing fans I've never heard anyone say anything other than Tyson was a ****head on a personal level, but he was a great fighter.

Roman Polanski the same, no reason someone can't admire his work and be inspired by it and his creation of it while not liking the guy personally.

Irish Guitarist · 08-11-2013 02:08PM

Some people have done great things despite being horrible people. For instance Richard Wagner was an anti-semite but was a great composer.

Mike Tyson on the other hand is a scumbag who punches people for a living.

nacho libre · 08-11-2013 02:08PM

There was no doubting his power, i've not seen anyone dispute that, but a lot of his early fights were against moderate opposition, who did not have the ability to negate his speed and withstand his power.
I can think of only three boxers who would have been able to do so.
So to be fair he was a good fighter.

As for hm being inspirational, there are quite a few boxers who had equally ****ty childhoods and went on to be law abiding citizens, there's the inspirational ones in my opinion.

Mark Twain · 08-11-2013 02:13PM

There are plenty of people who believe Tyson is innocent of rape.

http://www.examiner.com/article/it-s-17-years-later-and-i-still-don-t-believe-mike-tyson-raped-that-woman

I don't know whether he is or not. There are only 2 people who know, and one says he's guilty (Washington) and one says he's innocent (Tyson)

pundy · 08-11-2013 02:21PM

Mark Twain wrote: »

There are plenty of people who believe Tyson is innocent of rape.

http://www.examiner.com/article/it-s-17-years-later-and-i-still-don-t-believe-mike-tyson-raped-that-woman

I don't know whether he is or not. There are only 2 people who know, and one says he's guilty (Washington) and one says he's innocent (Tyson)

yeah but either way he's still as bad as a junkie who'd rob your phone in the street...

Mark Twain · 08-11-2013 02:23PM

pundy wrote: »

yeah but either way he's still as bad as a junkie who'd rob your phone in the street...

Unless that junkie is also the youngest ever heavyweight champion and one of the most impressive sportspeople in recorded history then I doubt it buddy.

Too Tough To Die · 08-11-2013 02:35PM

Cold Chocolate wrote: »

Yes it could, peak Vitali was probably the greatest heavyweight of all time.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

BillyMitchel · 08-11-2013 03:06PM

Cold Chocolate wrote: »

Who was better than him?

His defence is ridiculous.

You're argument is ridiculous! He bottled fighting pacquiao on more than one occasion.

Who's better? You honestly saying he's the best boxer of all time?

Dublinpato · 08-11-2013 03:07PM

mad turnip wrote: »

Once again no clarity is given on the type of rape, was it a "no, not tonight kind of rape" or a drag her into a bush down some dark alley kind of rape. The word in general is way too vague now a days

Einhard wrote: »

I don't see the difference between the two to be honest. If the act is not consensual, then it's rape. Not all that vague I would have thought.

What if you yell surprise? does it become surprise sex or is it still rape?.:pac:

Corkbah · 08-11-2013 03:12PM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Many "scumbags", addicts etc. suffer from mental health issues as well. This is rarely taken into account though for your average sham on the street though.

Not everyone can be born extraordinarily gifted either, and for the few that are, they shouldn't be able to use that as a ticket in life to do whatever they want.

have you not been in the courts lately for sentencing hearings …. it is ALWAYS taken as a mitigating factor (even if its completely made up for the benefit of the court)

DeanAustin · 08-11-2013 03:22PM

Cold Chocolate wrote: »

An 18 year old having sex with a 16 year old isn't consensual, hardly as bad as forcing a woman physically to have sex against her will.

That's a little bit different to the distinction the poster was making though isn't it?

EuropeanSon · 08-11-2013 03:43PM

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

No. No it couldn't.

It certainly could. Wladimir is incredibly difficult to fight against (mainly because he constantly fouls, but he does get away with it) and I don't think the arguments against his chin are necessarily very valid. Vitali was a monster a few years ago.

Just because you'd have to pay me to suffer through one of their fights (especially Wlad) doesn't mean they aren't extremely good boxers.

Anyway, haters gonna hate, and 'huggers gonna 'hug. The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle. And now I'm done with discussing the K brothers, as there really isn't anything more to say.

As far as Floyd is concerned, personally I think Rigondeaux is a more impressive fighter currently (though far less accomplished, obviously), and Floyd's claims to being the best ever are very weak, at best. He's still the most accomplished current fighter, however.

Lapin · 08-11-2013 03:57PM

donegal__road wrote: »

there is good in everyone

Except the French.

Mark Twain wrote: »

At the risk of dragging the thread off topic, who do you consider to be the greatest boxer?

Please don't say Ali....

Ok then.

Clay.

Trebber · 08-11-2013 03:58PM

BillyMitchel wrote: »

You're argument is ridiculous! He bottled fighting pacquiao on more than one occasion.

Who's better? You honestly saying he's the best boxer of all time?

Possibly the best, in the top 10 for sure.

pundy · 08-11-2013 04:42PM

Mark Twain wrote: »

Unless that junkie is also the youngest ever heavyweight champion and one of the most impressive sportspeople in recorded history then I doubt it buddy.

i am not interacting with you

Sleepy · 08-11-2013 04:43PM

Tyson's hardly the only one....

Cheryl Cole was convicted of racially motivated assault yet still gets put out there as a role-model for young girls.
Reese Witherspoon was arrested for disorderly conduct when her husband failed a sobriety test.
Tulisa whateverhernameis was arrested for dealing.
Jordan was arrested for assaulting some girl in a nightclub before.
Michelle Rodriguez was done for a hit and run and a few assaults.

And that's before you even start counting celebrities done for drink driving or drug possession...

pundy · 08-11-2013 04:45PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Tyson's hardly the only one....

Cheryl Cole was convicted of racially motivated assault yet still gets put out there as a role-model for young girls.
Reese Witherspoon was arrested for disorderly conduct when her husband failed a sobriety test.
Tulisa whateverhernameis was arrested for dealing.
Jordan was arrested for assaulting some girl in a nightclub before.
Michelle Rodriguez was done for a hit and run and a few assaults.

And that's before you even start counting celebrities done for drink driving or drug possession...

yeah, but michele rodriguez is hot and it wasnt a hit and run it was DUI

Call Me Jimmy · 08-11-2013 04:49PM

Is there any human, animal or organism that isn't a product of their environment? I don't know much about Mike Tyson but my usual reaction to people who do extremely bad things is that I doubt when they were 6,7,8,9,10 years old they would have wanted to go on to rape people or ruin lives. So more often than not I just take into account that what ever way they grew up, what ever life events happened between their childhood and horrible acts, I doubt they asked for it.

I'm not absolving anyone but that is always the first thing I think about, be it Mike Tyson or your average abbey street junkie.

DeanAustin · 08-11-2013 04:52PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Is there any human, animal or organism that isn't a product of their environment? I don't know much about Mike Tyson but my usual reaction to people who do extremely bad things is that I doubt when they were 6,7,8,9,10 years old they would have wanted to go on to rape people or ruin lives. So more often than not I just take into account that what ever way they grew up, what ever life events happened between their childhood and horrible acts, I doubt they asked for it.

I'm not absolving anyone but that is always the first thing I think about, be it Mike Tyson or your average abbey street junkie.

Agree with this but there are many from a similar upbringing that turn into, for want of a better phrase, decent people. Tyson didn't.

It's easy for me to say that having been fortunate enough to come from a better background than Tyson and perhaps in his shoes I'd have done the same or worse. I'll never know. Even if I did that would make me a complete scumbag. It doesn't make him a better person or absolve him from blame for his actions.

So there's this guy...

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