Religious child

Rosina1969 · 07-11-2013 09:59PM #1

Hi, my daughter is 10 and she's become obsessed with god and religioni. She wants to make her first communion and become a catholic. She's not baptised. I was brought up a catholic but long since lapsed and don't believe in anything now. She's been influenced by my parents strong catholic faith. What should I do, I'm very torn. On the one hand I should respect what she wants but on the other hand I really didn't want this for her. She prays every night, she reads prayer books and bible stories. She prays when she eats. She worries that I don't believe, or her dad. What would you do.

JPCN1 · 07-11-2013 10:02PM

I'd leave her make her own choices.

Holsten · 07-11-2013 10:05PM

Let her make her own choice, then as she gets older she should start to question her own beliefs.

campo · 07-11-2013 10:07PM

She sounds like a great kid, I would respect her wishes

Smash The House · 07-11-2013 10:14PM

it all sounds a bit odd OP

do they attend a Catholic school? surely at the age of 10 they'd past communion year? How much time do they spend with your parents? are you ok with your dad and possibly the school preaching?

you said she's worried about you not believing, if that's the case, then you really need to talk to whoever is filling her head with all this. You don't want your child to be convinced your going to hell and worrying about you every day

I'm not saying refuse to let her make it, I'm just saying a few things should be cleared up if you are going to let her:)

catallus · 07-11-2013 10:20PM

Smash The House wrote: »

it all sounds a bit odd OP

do they attend a Catholic school? surely at the age of 10 they'd past communion year? How much time do they spend with your parents? are you ok with your dad and possibly the school preaching?

you said she's worried about you not believing, if that's the case, then you really need to talk to whoever is filling her head with all this. You don't want your child to be convinced your going to hell and worrying about you every day

I'm not saying refuse to let her make it, I'm just saying a few things should be cleared up if you are going to let her:)

This is hugely important. She's young and she has some autonomy but you as her parent need to be sure that whatever/whoever the influence is that is spurring on this religious belief that she has is operating in her best interests. Best case scenario is that she is just happy believing. Worst case is she is being influenced by people who would use her new-found faith as a weapon against her.

If you find her obsessing about hell and the rest, then you need to set her straight on a few things.

Sulla Felix · 07-11-2013 10:51PM

I'd explain to her why I don't believe.

magicbastarder · 07-11-2013 11:36PM

send her to work with nuns next summer. that will cure her.

robindch · 08-11-2013 02:19AM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

She worries that I don't believe, or her dad. What would you do.

Your kid is fearful because of what your parents told her? I'd be having a very short, very sharp conversation with them about that for a start.

You could also read the bible and find all the bits that she's not supposed to to, but probably doing -- eating shellfish, wearing cloth of two different types, praying in public (at mass), calling priests "father" and so on. And all the stuff that she's supposed to be doing, that she's probably not - learning off prayers, going to mass every day, giving ten percent of everything to the church, believing six impossible things before breakfast and so on.

The Skeptics Annotated Bible is your friend for some of this:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/long.html

etc, etc.

magicbastarder · 08-11-2013 02:44AM

she's 10. no point coming on hot and heavy on her. best to try to understand what underpins her faith.

kylith · 08-11-2013 03:13AM

I'd say to support her learning all she can about it and to let her go to mass if she wants, but I'd also teach her as much as possible about other world religions, and I wouldn't let her make her communion until she's old enough to fully understand what she's signing up to; maybe around 16. That way she can have time to learn about religions and can make an informed decision when she's old enough to do so.

Turtwig · 08-11-2013 03:14AM

This is tough.

Somewhere or somehow your daughter is now behaving like a devout Catholic. The most likely culprits are the parents or the school. Or perhaps just maybe she acquired it of her own autonomy. Either way your child is now a Catholic. Explain in as neutral a tone as possible what you believe. Then put yourself in her shoes would you like a parent preaching telling you what you ought to believe? Whatever she believes she should believe it of her own freewill. Telling her she needs to adopt a particular stance is the wrong way to go imo. Treat her as a Catholic but don't become extra tolerant of Catholicism, make sure your values and beliefs are clear at all times, but also don't attempt to persuade her out of it.

pauldla · 08-11-2013 04:28AM

OP, my advice, for what it's worth, is: if she wants to explore Catholicism, facilitate her. Let her receive the sacraments, etc, but maintain your own stance on it, too. No need to come down heavy: for example, if she wants to go to Mass, bring her, but wait outside, the same as you would for any other activity (I bring my son to dance class, but I feel no compulsion to shaking my money-maker to Gangnam Style, no matter how much I love him). Keep up a dialogue with her, listen to what she has to say, and see how it goes. It might just be a phase for her, or she might find it fulfilling. Either way, it's her choice, but as a parent, I think it's most important that you make sure it IS her own choice, and not something that is being foisted on her by others. It's a tricky one to call: I don't envy your predicament.

smacl · 08-11-2013 09:44AM

I'd tend to agree with pauldla, in that if your child wants to explore religion, let her do so. Any strong willed child will fight harder for the thing that is banned than something allowed, and keeping in open friendly communication is IMHO a crucial part of parenting. What I would do is chat with her about the reasons that you ditched religion yourself. I find with my two, having a bit of a laugh about it always helps. Living in a house full of happy heathens, Catholicism is unlikely to stick.

nozzferrahhtoo · 08-11-2013 10:05AM

Whenever children have asked me about religion off their own choice, for whatever reason, I tend to try and put it in terms they understand. I ask them do they enjoy imagination while they play. They always say yes. I ask them about how it all feels really real during the game. Which they always agree with me over. They are more than aware that imagination can seem so real in the heat of play.

I then simply tell them that grown ups are not as good as imagination as kids are and "god" is just what happens when grown ups forget how to tell the difference between reality and imagination on some things.

They seem to understand this and it has impacted their view on the subject more than I could have contrived had I set out to have that effect intentionally.

gaynorvader · 08-11-2013 11:30AM

I'd sit down with her and have a discussion about why she believes. Just get her to explain to you, don't put words into her mouth. I find at that age for most kids the reasons are pretty selfish: "Teacher says I'll go to hell if I don't", "I want the money from first communion", etc. When you find out why, it might be easier to dissuade her "Do you think your teacher is always right about everything?", "What makes you think she's right about hell?", etc. Don't preach to her, just question her, let her answer, if she can't don't press her for an answer, just ask her to think about it and come back when she wants to answer.

Rosina1969 · 08-11-2013 11:36AM

Thanks for all the interesting though-provoking posts. She goes to educate together, so its not from school. She went happily through 2nd class not bothered about children who were making their communion. I had a childminder who was a devout christian, and I think she talked a lot about god. But to be fair, my daughter is so interested in god and religion I imagine she would have started a lot of the conversations herself especially when she found out her childminder was a christian. My parents sometimes, the odd time, would bring her to mass with them. I didnt see a problem with that - just more 'education'. My current childminder is a devout catholic and goes to mass every day, so I would think there have been a lot of conversations with her also. I dont believe any of them have pushed it on my daughter though. It's just a passion she has developed herself. I probably havent been proactive enough in telling her what I believe. I find it harder as its more what I DONT believe than what I do, IUKWIM.
Would you really not go into the church with her, or not sit with her for mass. That would suit me as I could bring my son for a walk while she's in there - he hates to sit still!

feelgoodinc27 · 08-11-2013 11:37AM

robindch wrote: »

Your kid is fearful because of what your parents told her? I'd be having a very short, very sharp conversation with them about that for a start.

You could also read the bible and find all the bits that she's not supposed to to, but probably doing -- eating shellfish, wearing cloth of two different types, praying in public (at mass), calling priests "father" and so on. And all the stuff that she's supposed to be doing, that she's probably not - learning off prayers, going to mass every day, giving ten percent of everything to the church, believing six impossible things before breakfast and so on.

The Skeptics Annotated Bible is your friend for some of this:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/long.html

etc, etc.

So replace one dogma for another.

Rosina1969 · 08-11-2013 11:41AM

gaynorvader, I did that, and she just said ' how can you not believe - god made the whole world, he loves us'. She didnt really explain, she just really believes.
no its definitely not about the money for the first communion or the dress or the bouncy castle or anything like that.
she prays for hours every night, literally about an hour. She gets quite upset if she doesnt have time to do it.
I think it's like a comfort to her

gaynorvader · 08-11-2013 11:59AM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

gaynorvader, I did that, and she just said ' how can you not believe - god made the whole world, he loves us'. She didnt really explain, she just really believes.
no its definitely not about the money for the first communion or the dress or the bouncy castle or anything like that.
she prays for hours every night, literally about an hour. She gets quite upset if she doesnt have time to do it.
I think it's like a comfort to her

Why does she think god made the whole world? Why does she think he loves us?
I certainly wouldn't stand in the way of her praying if she wants, just gentle questions. Ask yourself why you don't believe and try to get her to ask the same questions that led you to not believing.

Sulla Felix · 08-11-2013 12:09PM

I've been thinking about this since I posted and I think I need to reconsider.

I personally believe organized religion, Catholicism in particular, to be actively harmful to the mental health of an otherwise healthy individual. With that as a predicate of my dealings with religion and the religious, I couldn't in good conscience take a softly, softly approach to a child of mine deciding they wished to be a Catholic.

That doesn't mean I'd ban the practise or anything along those lines, since it'd be counter productive, especially with a child. I would however actively dispute the foundations of the faith. Challenge the assumptions that religious people make.

The child prays before bed? Fine, but a conversation on the why's and how's of how that's supposed to effect anything meaningful is required. There's plenty of cognitive dissonance that can be drawn into the foreground. Efficacy of prayer vs gods divine plan etc

Child wants to go to mass? Facilitate that, but why is mass necessary? If God is everywhere, if it's not in the Bible?

I guess, basically, I'd run through the questions I asked myself as I fell away from the Church. I'd be less inclined to worry for a christian child than a catholic one. Not saying I'd leave it at that, but I'd see Catholocism specifically as a clear and present danger to any child of mines mental wellbeing.

Rosina1969 · 08-11-2013 12:18PM

I think I need to examine my own beliefs, or lack of them. I find it hard to explain, only that I dont believe in any of it any more.
Sulla Felix I think that is my worry, I dont really want her mixing with priests and religious, and there's the whole 'guilt' thing which she is getting into already - like she said 'jesus died for US on the cross, how can you not believe in him and love him'. Before we had children we made a very definite decision that we didnt want them brought up in any kind of organised religion. But like the others say, if I try to say no, or wait until you're older, she goes mental at me, and is so angry with me. I'm wondering if the anger she will have against me if I say no to making communion, will outweigh any issues she will have if I let her.
One friend says to me that I should facilitate her, and let her explore her passion.
Her dad (ex-husband) says we should just say no, you're not doing it now, you can do it when you're older and you understand more about whether it's something you really want to do.
I tried to say to her the other day to wait until she is old enough to go to church herself, and it was a big decision, but she went absolutely mental. Then she started saying she had prayed and prayed that she would be allowed to do it... So if I do say no would it be a lesson that god doesnt answer her prayers?
I'm very confused about what to do.

the cats pajamas · 08-11-2013 12:22PM

If they are your child's wishes then think about respecting them, but she is a child and your responsibility is to raise her as best you can, not humor her in endeavors you think are foolish. (but that's your choice).
If she didn't get this into her head at your home, you need to ask where did she get it?
Is someone pushing it on her?

08-11-2013 12:36PM

I think asking her some honest and real questions and pointing out some of the cog dissonance would be useful.
Plenty of people die and could say they're doing it for other people. It doesn't prove anything. Something only being written in one book with no other contemporary sources - early history lesson there about sources of historical documents. And so on.
I think a firm "no" at this stage would be harmful and counter productive, it needs to be engaged and brought out into the light.
If she still believes in it all anyway in a few years and doesn't seem to display any trauma - I'd be wary about this guilt and hell obsession, frankly - then it's up to her

Benny_Cake · 08-11-2013 01:14PM

The only thing that would concern me there is that you say she is worried about the fact that you don't believe. It would worry me to see a child becoming obsessed with the idea that their loved ones could die at any time and be sentenced to eternal suffering. If that's the case, then she's getting it from somewhere and some gentle questioning will probably reveal the source.

I wouldn't worry about the rest of it (well, I would say that). She sounds like a very smart and thoughtful child - as she gets older her beliefs will undoubtedly change or evolve. Just be there to support her when she needs you.

smacl · 08-11-2013 01:16PM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

I tried to say to her the other day to wait until she is old enough to go to church herself, and it was a big decision, but she went absolutely mental. Then she started saying she had prayed and prayed that she would be allowed to do it...

No offence, but that sounds like a plain and simple tantrum. Having two girls myself, this is something we all get to see to a greater or lesser extent. Currently with me it is due to me not wanting to get my youngest (11) a dog. Whatever your decision about religion, letting your daughter get her own way by throwing a tantrum is bad news.

So if I do say no would it be a lesson that god doesnt answer her prayers?

Absolutely. Let God not answer her prayers, or anyone else for that matter when she's going mental, and then get her the odd unexpected nice surprise when she behaves well. Kids can be very manipulative, and mean as it may seem, you often have to be manipulative right back at them.

Benny_Cake · 08-11-2013 01:20PM

smacl wrote: »

No offence, but that sounds like a plain and simple tantrum. Having two girls myself, this is something we all get to see to a greater or lesser extent. Currently with me it is due to me not wanting to get my youngest (11) a dog. Whatever your decision about religion, letting your daughter get her own way by throwing a tantrum is bad news.

I didn't notice that bit, definitely sounds like a tantrum to me! OP, don't let her use this to manipulate you, it would send the wrong signal on a number of levels.

Sulla Felix · 08-11-2013 01:31PM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

I think I need to examine my own beliefs, or lack of them. I find it hard to explain, only that I dont believe in any of it any more.

I think you're right.

You need, when presented with a statement like 'jesus died for US on the cross, how can you not believe in him and love him' , to be able to explain why that statement is morally repugnant and not just that you don't agree with it, because or worse, that it's wrong because I said so. (the alarmbell for every child that tells them mom or dad are just being asses!).

You're not going to solve this issue overnight anyway, so you have time for some reading. Most on this forum come at things from two directions: a better command of the bible and religious doctrine than a lot of actually religious people, and a decent grasp of critical reasoning.

Regarding that specific statement though: why did he have to die on the cross? If God was his father, couldn't he have saved him? Oh, to expiate our sins, which sins? Original sin, so we're to be blamed for Adam and Eve disobeying God? Is that fair? If I (you) do something wrong, does that mean that you (her! brainmelt...) should be punished for it? Why not, if we're to be punished for our ancestors wrongdoing etc etc.
Why should we be guilty for Jesus dying? Are we guilty for other things that happened before we were born? If not, why not? If not, why are for this one thing and not the others?

There's just a wealth of things for which there is no reasonable answer.

Dades · 08-11-2013 01:35PM

OP does she have friends who are the same way inclined? Is she a sociable child? She didn't link these notions of hers off the stones.

Normally I'd say let her make her own mind up but someone is taken that choice away from her already and already started instilling some negative traits.

If you fill in the "gaps" that God usually fills it might go some way to at least relieving some of her pre-teen fundamentalism. I have my daughter on a staple diet of popular science to counteract the "God made it" stuff she's going to hear in school.

Terrlock · 08-11-2013 01:36PM

I have never ever heard of a Child trying to manipulate a Parent to go to mass.

I had a very strong believe in God as a child, but growing up as a child I think I found mass to be one of the most boring things ever.

Is this for real or is this a troll?

One thing I'd say to you though, if your wrong about God and God does indeed exist, I'd hate to be one answering for coming between him and a child.

vitani · 08-11-2013 01:39PM

A lot of kids go through a religious stage at about that age - I know I did. I remember praying every night in 5th or 6th class. By the age of 13 though, I'd started to move away from the Church. I think religion and believing that there's someone out there watching over you can be very comforting when you're learning about the world and starting to lose a bit of your childhood innocence.

For now, I'd support her in learning about Catholicism and I'd be respectful about her current beliefs, within reason. At the very least, this will take the rebellion out of it. Chances are that it's a phase and she'll grow out of it soon.

I'd also reassure her about you not believing - something along the lines of if God exists, then you think he's more concerned about people being kind and good to each other rather than going to Mass or believing in him. So, even though you don't go to Mass, if you live a good life, he won't send you to hell. I think it's important that she doesn't have to fret about being separated from you in whatever afterlife she believes in.

Religious child

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