Islam in Scandanavia

rambutman · 07-11-2013 04:28PM

i grew up Catholic, ended up coverting to Islam (stupidly) and after a few years of having my head in it GTFO ASAP......so think i may have a little understanding of Islam

IMHO the majority of muslims have the same belief about Sharia law. I remember when there was that uproar about the cartoons depicting Mohammad asking a room full of muslems (in Ireland, and all around the 30 years old mark) if they believed the cartoonist should be killed/assassinated and they all whole-heartedly agreed....shocking

FTA69 · 07-11-2013 04:32PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

We can respect individual Muslims who wish to integrate into society

Firstly it's important to state that most Muslims in Britain were born here, and in another few years that will increase to be the case. Secondly, 83% of British Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, a figure higher than the traditional white British population. This notion that it's only the odd Muslim with an interest in partaking in wider society needs to be dispelled.

but they can keep their private beliefs to themselves and shouldn't try to impose their own beliefs on others.

I agree with you there. I think all religion is a pile of b*llocks. However, most Muslims are quite personal about their religion and don't try and foist it on others.

Railing against their beliefs is not Islamophobic as that word has no meaning.

Saying you disagree with Islam's tenets or religion is fine. Making broad, discriminatory negative generalisations about a community isn't. Islamophobia is a real thing in western society and is the current rallying point of the far right. It isn't a case of being "afraid" of Muslims, no more than a xenophobe or a homophobe is "afraid" of foreigners and gays. There are plenty people who seek to insinuate that Muslims have no place in our society and that is also dangerous and wrong.

wretcheddomain · 07-11-2013 04:32PM

rambutman wrote: »

IMHO the majority of muslims have the same belief about Sharia law. I remember when there was that uproar about the cartoons depicting Mohammad asking a room full of muslems (in Ireland, and all around the 30 years old mark) if they believed the cartoonist should be killed/assassinated and they all whole-heartedly agreed....shocking

Firstly, unless the cartoonist is a political and/or some prominent figure then it cannot be called an assassination.

But leaving that aside...

I don't think the Muslims would say that they wish him to be murdered but that under Sharia they would be obliged to agree with the punishment if it were installed as the ideology of a government. But otherwise, yes, they're bound to agree to these terms. I've had similar experiences with seemingly moderate Muslims who have absolutely no difficulty reconciling the murder of individuals for what appear to be very minor or insignificant events.

Ush1 · 07-11-2013 04:33PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Exactly. Islam is not a political manifesto but its content can be manipulated for political goals. These are two distinct concepts and shouldn't be conflated.

Ideology and religion, hmmm.....

It's not even a debate the amount of influence religion has on politics, it's a massive influence, probably the biggest of all in some cases.

Look how many laws are based of religion, particularly in this country and also how education has formed around the world.

Britain for instance, pumps state money into schools that teach biblical creation for instance. You're not talking ancient laws from some mad time either. That was Tony Blairs idea, a devout Christian. His reasoning? Lets not let the facts get in the way of "diversity".:rolleyes:

Anyway, I digress....

wretcheddomain · 07-11-2013 04:40PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Saying you disagree with Islam's tenets or religion is fine. Making broad, discriminatory negative generalisations about a community isn't. Islamophobia is a real thing in western society and is the current rallying point of the far right. It isn't a case of being "afraid" of Muslims, no more than a xenophobe or a homophobe is "afraid" of foreigners and gays. There are plenty people who seek to insinuate that Muslims have no place in our society and that is also dangerous and wrong.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. However, the term Islamophobic infers there's something about Islam as a religion individuals dislike. However, as you've mentioned, the far right is more concerned with the individuals themselves who happen to share a particular cultural parameter. It's in this sense that the discrimination that Muslims are subjected to at the hands of the far right actually just simply falls under a criterion for Xenophobia; again, referring to the people as alien and their customs as a foreign threat.

The second form of xenophobia is primarily cultural, and the objects of the phobia are cultural elements which are considered alien. All cultures are subject to external influences, but cultural xenophobia is often narrowly directed, for instance, at foreign loan words in a national language. It rarely leads to aggression against individual persons, but can result in political campaigns for cultural or linguistic purification. In addition, entirely xenophobic societies tend not to be open to interactions from anything "outside" themselves, resulting in isolationism that can further increase xenophobia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

It has nothing really to do with Islam as the far right will identify any external culture as a foreign threat. It's the people they deem the problem, who just happen to share a common cultural constant.

07-11-2013 04:44PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

http://itsnobody.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/debunking-the-atheistracist-muslim-rape-lie-in-sweden/

I'm an atheist racist?

Many reported rapes in Sweden are false reports caused by the extreme racism there

I don't think you can talk about impartial sources when using this guy to be honest.

Mesut Ozil · 07-11-2013 04:44PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Islam is no more a political Ideology than Christianity is.

It's not a race, though. You need to stop dismissing people arguments as "racist" because you clearly cannot distinguish the different between racism and bigotry.

Race is a social construct, meaning it has no scientific basis. Everything nowadays should revolve around science, so where's the science in grouping religious organizations in with Africans or Asians?

I suppose Tom Cruise and his fellow Caucasian Scientologists are a different race from other white, Christian people in America because they're members of different religious organizations? No because that sounds downright fúcking retarded.

As for Islam being a political ideology: it actually was a political ideology when it was created because religions are scams created to control the masses. Religions have a lot in common with fascism and Nazism as they both preach submission to a power and preach dominance over those who don't not conform to their way of thinking.

BobbyPropane · 07-11-2013 04:45PM

Reading back over the thread I may come across as a right wing nut but that was not my intention.

Just sick of all this extreme tolerance stuff recently when Muslims have rioted because they don't want to integrate and still have such old ideas in their heads (some of them).

Everything is not all merry in countries that have accepted particularly Muslim immigrants and from my own experience it is them who choose not to integrate, natives should not be blamed for this as they are in Sweden and indeed ireland

Nodin · 07-11-2013 04:53PM

BobbyPropane wrote: »

,.................

Just sick of all this extreme tolerance stuff recently ...............

You're right!!!!! Screw the liberal agenda, we can go back to the good old days of protestants vs catholics, everybody vs the jews and muslims. Another few centuries of sectarian nuttery would do us good.

imtdub · 07-11-2013 04:54PM

hansfrei wrote: »

The sister of one of the three people who were stabbed by a Muslim on a bus recently have asked for tolerance. Can't say I'd be so forgiving.

How forgiving is this Doctor...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/doctor-seeks-to-bring-bodies-of-family-to-ireland-after-fire-1.1534640

BobbyPropane · 07-11-2013 04:55PM

Nodin wrote: »

You're right!!!!! Screw the liberal agenda, we can go back to the good old days of protestants vs catholics, everybody vs the jews and muslims. Another few centuries of sectarian nuttery would do us good.

**** off mate I knew that would be the reply. I don't want that either. You know there are people who are not either liberal or conservative? Perhaps you are the conservative for automatically thinking I somehow wanted to abolish the liberal agenda. Look at what I said EXTREME tolerance.

eisenberg1 · 07-11-2013 04:56PM

Is it down to some countries like Sweden being seen as a "soft touch". I am not too well versed on this, but have read about entire muslim ghettoes in parts of Stockholm, where Schools have to employ special teachers for the non Swedish speakers.

iDave · 07-11-2013 04:56PM

Mesut Ozil wrote: »

It's not a race, though. You need to stop dismissing people arguments as "racist" because you clearly cannot distinguish the different between racism and bigotry.

Race is a social construct, meaning it has no scientific basis. Everything nowadays should revolve around science, so where's the science in grouping religious organizations in with Africans or Asians?

I suppose Tom Cruise and his fellow Caucasian Scientologists are a different race from other white, Christian people in America because they're members of different religious organizations? No because that sounds downright fúcking retarded.

As for Islam being a political ideology: it actually was a political ideology when it was created because religions are scams created to control the masses. Religions have a lot in common with fascism and Nazism as they both preach submission to a power and preach dominance over those who don't not conform to their way of thinking.

Scientology isn't a religion.

Other than that I largely agree with you.

crockholm · 07-11-2013 05:06PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

BobbyPropane wrote: »

Apparently 90% of all rapes in Norway are committed by Muslims while in Sweden it stands at 48%
QUOTE]

More lies and racist distortions.

You might try reading this:
http://itsnobody.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/debunking-the-atheistracist-muslim-rape-lie-in-sweden/[/QUOTE]

I love the fact that you of all people posted that-His conclusion being that "Swedes are disgusting extremely racist people", Yes they are his Words,not taken out of context or anything, and you Humphry Dumpty agree with his assessment- how shockingly bigoted of you, you truely are the extremist here ( though keep posting, I like your winsome truculent teenager style:))

wretcheddomain · 07-11-2013 05:06PM

iDave wrote: »

Scientology isn't a religion.

Other than that I largely agree with you.

It's a set of beliefs which was characterised by its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, in 1953, as a religion.

It's called the Church of Scientology.

iDave · 07-11-2013 05:10PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

It's a set of beliefs which was characterised by its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, in 1953, as a religion.

It's called the Church of Scientology.

And I can found the Church of iDaveology and scam you out of your cash. Doesn't make it a religion.

Having said that a chap called Muhammad can set up a new church too but I wont go there.

biko · 07-11-2013 05:10PM

I think the Scandis should take a leaf from the book of the Saudis.

"Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination"
versus
"Designs for a Saudi-funded landmark mosque in Gothenburg have received the final go-ahead from Muslim leaders in the city".

BobbyPropane · 07-11-2013 05:11PM

biko wrote: »

I think the Scandis should take a leaf from the book of the Saudis.

"Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination"
versus
"Designs for a Saudi-funded landmark mosque in Gothenburg have received the final go-ahead from Muslim leaders in the city".

Very true statement had forgotten about this aspect.

It's the same in Dublin, I am completely opposed to the building of that mosque.

Nodin · 07-11-2013 05:13PM

biko wrote: »

I think the Scandis should take a leaf from the book of the Saudis.

"Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination"
versus
"Designs for a Saudi-funded landmark mosque in Gothenburg have received the final go-ahead from Muslim leaders in the city".

...so we drop aspiring to the western liberal model, and send all fact finding junkets to Saudi in future. That'll end well.

Ush1 · 07-11-2013 05:16PM

iDave wrote: »

And I can found the Church of iDaveology and scam you out of your cash. Doesn't make it a religion.

Having said that a chap called Muhammad can set up a new church too but I wont go there.

What makes it a religion so? Or not a religion in the case of scientology? Would you consider Mormonism a religion?

JohnMc1 · 07-11-2013 05:17PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

funnily enough the best thing to do with those people would be to integrate the **** out of them

christianity in europe has been well and truly neutered, now we just need to do the same to islam.

What a pipe dream you are having. Muslims do not want to integrate into Western Society. This is the problem with Immigration in general now. Nobody wants to integrate into their new society. Multiculturalism is steeped in selfishness and laziness. The sooner people wake up to this the sooner we'll be able to fix the problem.

wes · 07-11-2013 05:19PM

Nodin wrote: »

...so we drop aspiring to the western liberal model, and send all fact finding junkets to Saudi in future. That'll end well.

Also, it ignores that pretty much every other Muslim majority nation have churches. Even Iran has churches.

imtdub · 07-11-2013 05:20PM

biko wrote: »

I think the Scandis should take a leaf from the book of the Saudis.

"Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination"
versus
"Designs for a Saudi-funded landmark mosque in Gothenburg have received the final go-ahead from Muslim leaders in the city".

A big difference churches are being sold to pay for the compensation for the abuse victims and hardly anybody goes to Mass from current generations.

Wibbs · 07-11-2013 05:24PM

Mesut Ozil wrote: »

Race is a social construct, meaning it has no scientific basis.

Actually, not quite. One can talk scientifically about different genetic human populations and they broadly follow the old idea of "race". There are some differences between populations too. Put it this way a pathologist can usually take one look at a skeleton and tell you with very good accuracy the origins of the owner. The skull alone can tell you. Other differences include propensity to different conditions, even how a person may respond to different medical drugs.

biko · 07-11-2013 05:33PM

wes wrote: »

Also, it ignores that pretty much every other Muslim majority nation have churches. Even Iran has churches.

Yet the most fundamentalist Muslims fund the landmark mosque in Gothenburg.
The most intolerant builds temples while the most tolerant accepts.

As to churches in muslim countries
http://www.persecution.org/category/countries/middle-east/

American pastor Saeed Abedini has been imprisoned in Iran for his faith since since the summer of 2012. ICC has just learned that he is being transferred to what is perhaps Iran's most brutal prison, where it is common for inmates to perish before completion of their sentences.

Four Iranian Christian who were imprisoned for attending a house church lost their appeals and now face 3years and 8 months in prison. The Christians were originally sentenced in June for their faith activities

This might be tolerance in your view, but it's not in mine.

Nodin · 07-11-2013 05:36PM

biko wrote: »

Yet the most fundamentalist Muslims fund the landmark mosque in Gothenburg.
The most intolerant builds temples while the most tolerant accepts.

That's how it works. Unless we all end up intolerant and drag ourselves back a few centuries.

crockholm · 07-11-2013 05:36PM

Nodin wrote: »

...so we drop aspiring to the western liberal model, and send all fact finding junkets to Saudi in future. That'll end well.

Yup,lots of liberalism,thats what comes with Saudi funded mosques.:D

Nodin · 07-11-2013 05:39PM

crockholm wrote: »

Yup,lots of liberalism,thats what comes with Saudi funded mosques.:D

......I presume he was referring to the Saudi intolerance of other faiths places of worship as something to be aspired to.

ahnowbrowncow · 07-11-2013 05:39PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Firstly, unless the cartoonist is a political and/or some prominent figure then it cannot be called an assassination.

But leaving that aside...

I don't think the Muslims would say that they wish him to be murdered but that under Sharia they would be obliged to agree with the punishment if it were installed as the ideology of a government. But otherwise, yes, they're bound to agree to these terms. I've had similar experiences with seemingly moderate Muslims who have absolutely no difficulty reconciling the murder of individuals for what appear to be very minor or insignificant events.

Well the cartoonist was a prominent figure so it would most definitely would have been called an assassination especially because it would have been for religious reasons...

But leaving that aside...

crockholm · 07-11-2013 05:44PM

Nodin wrote: »

......I presume he was referring to the Saudi intolerance of other faiths places of worship as something to be aspired to.

And how self defeating it is to allow them have anything to do with religion in Sweden

Islam in Scandanavia

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