Please do this Today to help Separate Church and State in Ireland

Hotblack Desiato · 31-10-2013 10:33PM

robindch wrote: »

The point of producing that alternative is to get people to see that the current situation is openly unfair and can only be resolved -- while preserving religious privilege -- at great expense. Hence that the other alternative, to remove religious privilege, is the rational choice.

Yeah, I get that, which is why I mentioned that it will not be possible to change this overnight, however desirable this change would be.

There'd have to be some sort of transitory arrangement, perhaps a year or two? but not more.

GCU - As for what unites or defines us once RCC hegemony is dismantled :rolleyes: is it not enough to state that we are people of Ireland, with common democratic and republican (small R) values. Several European nations have had massive changes in their territory in the last century, Poland and Germany aren't where they once were but Poles are still Poles and Germans still German.

The German Basic Law is a decent model for a modern republic IMHO (although it doesn't ban state funding of religion.)

Michael Nugent · 01-11-2013 12:58AM

Good news so far. This time last week, we started to ask people to make submissions about Secularism / Separation of Church and State.

Since then, there have been 59 new submissions about Secularism / Separation of Church and State, bringing it up from 24 this time last week, to 83 today.

Environment (137) and Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (133) are still ahead, but Separation of Church and State is rapidly catching up.

The Convention has said that it is likely to discuss two, or maybe three, items under the final item on its agenda, so it is really important that we get as many submissions as we can onto their website.

The decision won't be made simply by counting the number of submissions, but it will help to influence the decision, so the more we can get the better.

If you have already made a submission, thank you. If you haven't already made a submission, please do so today. Either way, please ask others to do so also.

Also, if you live near Waterford, please attend the Convention's public meeting in Waterford City Hall at 7 pm next Thursday, November 7th.

Atheist Ireland’s Regional Officer, Kevin Sheehan will be there at 6.30 pm if you would like to meet him beforehand to discuss the meeting. Also, you can email Kevin at info at atheist dot ie.

Zillah · 01-11-2013 02:29AM

Dozens of new submissions calling for a secular constitution and we get this:

Convention to consider the removal of the offence of blasphemy 31/10/2013
The Convention on the Constitution will meet in plenary session this coming weekend (2/3 November) to consider the eighth item of its terms of reference - the removal from the Constitution of the offence of blasphemy.

The plenary meeting will be streamed live on www.constitution.ie on Saturday (9.30am-5.30pm) and on Sunday (10am-1pm).

***************

Good start, but why focus on that sole issue? Seems cynical to get dozens of calls for separation of church and state and then pick a single, small part of that issue.

Dubbug · 01-11-2013 07:31AM

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Today you a have a unique opportunity to help reverse the historic influence of the Catholic Church on the Irish Constitution – a document that begins with the embarrassing anachronism of: “In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority,” and then refers to “our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ,” before making the President, judges and other public office holders swear a religious oath and allowing the Government to discriminate in various ways in favour of religious citizens over nonreligious citizens.

An official State Convention is now looking for public opinions on what changes to recommend to the Constitution. It is a forum of 100 people, made up of 66 citizens, 33 parliamentarians, and an independent Chairman. It will ask the Government to hold referendums on the issues that it thinks need changing.

The Government asked the Convention to discuss several specific topics, including the electoral system, same-sex marriage, the role of women and the crime of blasphemy. It will finish dealing with those topics this weekend, and will then move on to the final item on its agenda – any other issues on which it wants to recommend change.

How you can influence the process today

For the final item on its agenda, the members of the Convention will choose two or maybe three additional items to discuss. They are now asking the public to give them our opinions, to help them to make up their minds. You can give your opinion on their website and by attending regional public meetings.

So what two or maybe three items will they choose? So far there have been strong campaigns asking them to choose ESC rights (economic, social and cultural rights) and protection of the environment. We now need to have a similar campaign to ask them to choose Separation of Church and State.

Please spend a few minutes to do the following three things:

1. Today, make your own personal submission to the Convention

This is the easiest way for you to influence the process. If you do this, you can help today to bring Separation of Church and State in Ireland a little bit closer.

Just write a few paragraphs (as long or as short as you like) explaining why you personally believe that we need Separation of Church and State in Ireland, and why you want the Constitution changed to reflect that.

Then go to the Constitutional Convention website and upload your submission.
You can read other submissions on this page.

You can read the Atheist Ireland submission here.

You can make your own personal submission on this page.

Select the category “Other” from the drop-down menu, fill in your details and a short summary of the changes you want. You can first save your comments in word text or pdf file, and then attach the file using the “attach document” box on the website.

2. Today, ask your friends to make their own personal submissions

Also, please ask other friends or colleagues who support the need for Separation of Church and State to go to the website and make their own personal submissions.

This is a rare opportunity for us to work together to help to bring about constitutional change on this issue, and we need to convince the Convention members that a lot of people want them to select this as one of the final items on their agenda.

Please pass on the link to this page to any of your friends who support the need for Separation of Church and State, and please discuss the issue with friends in real life and on any relevant online forums.

3. Attend the nearest of the Convention’s Regional Public Meetings

Please make plans today to do this. It is the next most important thing that you can do to help influence the Convention to include Separation of Church and State onto its agenda.

The Convention is holding regional public meetings to ask people what items they want to see added to the agenda. There will be members of the Convention at each public meeting. You will be able to speak and to vote for the items you want them to discuss.

They are only going to choose two or maybe three, and at the first meeting in Cork, people voted for four items in this order: ESC Rights, Protecting the Environment, Local Government Reform and Separation of Church and State.

If we are to show the Convention members that we want them to include Separation of Church and State on its agenda, we need to have people attending these meetings and speaking and voting for Separation of Church and State.

The Cork public meeting has already taken place. Here is the schedule of the rest of the public meetings. They each start at 7pm.
Galway - 30th of October – National University of Ireland.

Waterford – 7th of November – Waterford City Hall

Dublin – 11th of November – Dublin City University (DCU)

Dublin – 13th of November – Royal Irish Academy (RIA)

Sligo – 19th of November – Sligo Borough Council

Athlone – 20th of November – Radisson SAS

Monaghan – 25th of November – Monaghan Education Campus

Atheist Ireland’s Regional Officer, Kevin Sheehan will be attending all of these meetings. He will be there at 6.30 pm if you would like to meet him beforehand to discuss the meeting. Also, you can email Kevin at info at atheist dot ie.

Summary of the Atheist Ireland submission

Here is the executive summary of Atheist Ireland’s submission to the Convention.

Atheist Ireland is an advocacy group for atheism, reason and ethical secularism. We are the only advocacy group in Ireland that promotes the political cause of Separation of Church and State as a primary aim. We are participants in the dialogue process between the Government and religious and philosophical bodies. We participate in events organised by international bodies such as the United Nations, the European Union, the Council of Europe and the OSCE. We work with other advocacy groups who are seeking to bring about an ethical society.

One of the most striking features of the Irish Constitution is its overt theistic, religious, Christian and Roman Catholic character. This is a result of the political personnel and culture of the Ireland of the 1930s, and it is entirely inappropriate for the Ireland of the 21st century. If the Convention is to make serious substantive proposals for change, it must address this issue and the problems that it has caused over the decades. We ask you to add secularisation and Separation of Church and State as one of the additional items on your agenda.

Atheist Ireland wants a secular Irish Constitution, which respects equally the right of every citizen to our religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs, with the State remaining neutral on these beliefs. Religious States promote religion, atheist States promote atheism, and secular States promote neither, but respect equally the right of each citizen to hold and manifest their personal beliefs. In a pluralist democratic society such as Ireland, a secular Constitution is the only way to protect equally the rights of religious and nonreligious people.

We recommend the following three categories of amendments:

(a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

(b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

(c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

Remember the three ways you can influence the process:

1. Today, make your own personal submission to the Convention

2. Today, ask your friends to make their own personal submissions

3. Attend the nearest of the Convention’s Regional Public Meetings

Please take a few minutes today to help to make this happen. In particular, if you live near Galway, please attend the Galway public meeting this Wednesday evening.
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Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Dubbug · 01-11-2013 07:31AM

Zillah wrote: »

Dozens of new submissions calling for a secular constitution and we get this:

Convention to consider the removal of the offence of blasphemy 31/10/2013
The Convention on the Constitution will meet in plenary session this coming weekend (2/3 November) to consider the eighth item of its terms of reference - the removal from the Constitution of the offence of blasphemy.

The plenary meeting will be streamed live on www.constitution.ie on Saturday (9.30am-5.30pm) and on Sunday (10am-1pm).

***************

Good start, but why focus on that sole issue? Seems cynical to get dozens of calls for separation of church and state and then pick a single, small part of that issue.

Separation of Church and state is a two-way street.

MrPudding · 01-11-2013 09:45AM

Dubbug wrote: »

Separation of Church and state is a two-way street.

Are you worries about the protection of catholic children ?

MrP

robindch · 01-11-2013 12:37PM

MrPudding wrote: »

Are you worries about the protection of catholic children?

Ooooo!

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 01-11-2013 01:28PM

Zillah wrote: »

<...> Good start, but why focus on that sole issue? Seems cynical to get dozens of calls for separation of church and state and then pick a single, small part of that issue.

Their deliberation on blasphemy isn't particularly on foot of public consultations. It would be taking place anyway, as it is part of their original terms of reference:

https://www.constitution.ie/AboutUs.aspx

Michael Nugent · 01-11-2013 01:33PM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Their deliberation on blasphemy isn't particularly on foot of public consultations. It would be taking place anyway, as it is part of their original terms of reference:

https://www.constitution.ie/AboutUs.aspx

That's right. The Government told them to discuss several specific issues, the last of which was blasphemy. That debate was already scheduled for this weekend.

After that, they can add other items onto the final item on their agenda, which will take place in February. It is under this 'other' agenda category that we are trying to get separation of church and state included.

Michael Nugent · 01-11-2013 01:35PM

Dubbug wrote: »

Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Thank you for quoting the entirety of my post.

Your promotional assistance is acknowledged.

iDave · 01-11-2013 01:50PM

Dubbug wrote: »

Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Church of Atheism is an oxymoron

PopePalpatine · 01-11-2013 03:11PM

Dubbug wrote: »

Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Hello Fr. McKevitt, goodbye Fr. McKevitt! :pac:

robindch · 01-11-2013 03:28PM

Here's the Knights of Columbanus on blasphemy in the Constitution. They like it.

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=d41e4103-e542-e311-8571-005056a32ee4

MrPudding · 01-11-2013 03:33PM

Hmmm, can't get to it.

MrP

robindch · 01-11-2013 03:40PM

^^^ it's a link to a PDF. And it's available from the main submissions page too:

https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx

btw, very rapidly followed up by another submission by an A+A poster. Beer's on me next time, Sean!

Hotblack Desiato · 01-11-2013 09:28PM

Just sent one in. They don't accept ODT or even RTF :rolleyes:

swampgas · 03-11-2013 10:19AM

robindch wrote: »

Here's the Knights of Columbanus on blasphemy in the Constitution. They like it.

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=d41e4103-e542-e311-8571-005056a32ee4

What's interesting is how the KoC justify the constitutional prohibition on blasphemy using the Constitution's other explicit references to God and Catholicism.

22. On balance we contend that the constitutional provision on blasphemy should be retained for the
following reasons:

i) it is in harmony with the Constitution’s expressed reverence for God and religion

So it may well be that the issues of secularism and blasphemy are interlinked to such an extent that the only sensible way to remove blasphemy from the constitution may be to also remove many of the explicit references to God and religion.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 03-11-2013 05:21PM

swampgas wrote: »

So it may well be that the issues of secularism and blasphemy are interlinked to such an extent that the only sensible way to remove blasphemy from the constitution may be to also remove many of the explicit references to God and religion.

I'd continue to plow the same lonely furrow, which I think your point illustrates.

I think you are right. IF the Constitution reveres God and religion, and claims that the Trinity is the ultimate source of all authority, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to delete blasphemy. What does all that reverence mean, if there isn't some sanction?

That's why I'd suggest what's actually needed is a full step back from the Constitution, to pose the question of what kind of society we think we're forming. That might give us some clue as to what's important, and what isn't.

Maybe blasphemy should stay, or go. But its hard to assess without a more fundamental agreement over how we actually conceive of our State, and how we actually conceive of the rights it should be protecting. For the sake of argument, I've a dim memory of someone saying that the Life of Brian was banned in Sweden under legislation protecting minority beliefs from persecution. I'm not saying we'd follow that line. I am saying that a piecemeal consideration of blasphemy isn't useful.

wretcheddomain · 03-11-2013 06:01PM

Any updates on the figures?

Hotblack Desiato · 03-11-2013 06:53PM

They won't have added any submissions to the website over the weekend.

Here's the text of my one (not up yet) :

Separation of Church and State

We should bring about a complete separation of church and State in our Constitution and laws.

Our Constitution is the founding document of our nation. It should be inclusive of all citizens. It should promote values of democracy, inclusivity, tolerance and freedom. Instead we have a document which, notwithstanding the removal of the explicit reference to a 'special position' of the Catholic Church, continues to promote a particular religious point of view. This is unacceptable in a modern pluralist democracy.

The Constitution has a preamble which states that power is derived not from the people, but from a god, and an explicitly Christian god at that. It requires judges and Presidents to take explicitly Christian, religious, oaths on appointment. It quashes free speech by obliging the State to prohibit blasphemy. The rights of women are not held equal to those of men. Article 41.2 all but states that a woman's place is in the home. The effect of Article 40.3.3 is that the bodily integrity and right to life and health of a woman is inferior to that of a man.

Article 44.1 is particularly offensive to non-believers (and certain religious believers also) and is not compatible in any way with a pluralist democratic republic.

Notwithstanding Article 44.2, the State does fund religious indoctrination in our schools, and permits employment and enrolment policies which are explicitly discriminatory against members of minority religions and non-believers. Education funded by the State must be inclusive of all, and free of indoctrination.

The State must ensure that there is no Constitutional barrier to holding religious bodies legally and financially accountable for wrongdoing.

The promotion of a religion should not be subsidised by taxpayers through charitable status or tax reliefs. Religious bodies should not be treated any more favourably than secular clubs or associations.

wretcheddomain · 05-11-2013 03:43PM

Looks like they're already putting up the new submissions; surely they can't ignore this massive quantity of submissions on the same topic?

robindch · 06-11-2013 12:14AM

Wife of corrupt politician, Pee Flynn explains that "God knows best" after corrupt policitian, Pee Flynn, did a religious reading or two from the pulpit in Castlebar. TD Michelle Mulherin (of "fornication [...] is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country" fame) explained that she was fine with it, matter for himself and all that, and that the church is a "place where you find mercy, not condemnation".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/why-the-fuss-now-asks-padraig-flynns-wife-on-mass-row-29726461.html

Independent wrote:

THE wife of former politician Padraig 'Pee' Flynn has defended him after he gave a reading to Mass-goers, saying: "Sure he's been reading at Mass there for the last 40 years." Dorothy Flynn was responding to reports that parishioners in Castlebar, Co Mayo, complained about her husband speaking from the pulpit.

Asked if she thought criticism of her husband was unfair, Mrs Flynn replied: "I think God knows best." She said that Mr Flynn, a former Fianna Fail minister and European Commissioner, wasn't available when the Irish Independent phoned and he did not return our call last night.

The controversial former politician gave two readings during Mass in the Church of the Holy Rosary on October 27, and one of the readings stated: "I have fought the good fight."

Last year, the Mahon Tribunal found that Mr Flynn accepted a corrupt payment of IR£50,000 from developer Tom Gilmartin. The tribunal found he used the money to buy a farm for his wife, although it was intended for Fianna Fail coffers. He was never reprimanded in court.

Reports yesterday said parishioners felt "disgust" after Mr Flynn gave the readings. The Tuam archdiocese is investigating complaints. An archdiocese spokesman said they would be "very reluctant to comment publicly".

But Mayo Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin backed Mr Flynn, saying: "I think it's really a matter for himself and his faith. I personally don't have a problem with it. This is the church we're talking about. It's a place where you find mercy, not condemnation."

Hotblack Desiato · 06-11-2013 01:34AM

^ Hmm, couldn't decide if it was scandals, hazards or funny, so posted it here :pac:

robindch · 06-11-2013 11:51AM

ninja900 wrote: »

^ Hmm, couldn't decide if it was scandals, hazards or funny, so posted it here :pac:

These days, a lot of religious output is.

wretcheddomain · 06-11-2013 01:30PM

Hundreds of thousands of new submissions are now available.

Michael Nugent · 06-11-2013 06:28PM

Please continue to make submissions about Secularism / Separation of Church and State to the Constitutional Convention.

There has been a huge surge in Church and State submissions in recent weeks. However, the Convention members seemed to show little interest in adding it to the final item on their agenda when they met last weekend.

When we started asking for submissions two weeks ago, there were about 25 Church and State submissions, Now there are about 110. Church and State is now closing in on the top two topics, Environment and ESC Rights, with about 140 each. But these were at about 130 each two weeks ago.

And the Convention secretariat told us on Saturday that it was noticeable that the Church and State submissions were individually written and expressing nuanced opinions, rather than being merely petition-style submissions to which people had simply added their names.

The Convention now seems likely to discuss only one or maybe two items under the final item on its agenda. It or they will be selected from this list:

Environment
ESC Rights
Church and State
Political and Institutional Reform
Family and Morality
Bill of Rights

Feedback from the Convention’s discussions on Sunday suggested support for ESC Rights, and possibly for Environment or Political Reform, but there was almost no feedback supporting the inclusion of Church and State.

To be honest, we have a dilemma at the moment. The Convention voted to replace the blasphemy clause on Saturday, but 38% of them wanted to keep the 1937 blasphemy reference, and 49% wanted a law against blasphemy on the statute books.

So it may be a double-edged sword in that, if we do get Church and State onto the agenda, this particular group of people might not recommend a very positive outcome after their discussions, if they do end up discussing it.

However, on principle, we should still try to demonstrate that people want to see Constitutional Separation of Church and State.

The decision as to what they discuss won't be made simply by counting the number of submissions, but it will help to influence the decision, so it is really important that we continue to get as many submissions as we can onto their website.

If you have already made a submission, thank you. If you haven't already made a submission, please do so today. Either way, please ask others to do so also.

Also, if you live near Waterford, please attend the Convention's public meeting in Waterford City Hall at 7 pm this Thursday, November 7th.

Atheist Ireland’s Regional Officer, Kevin Sheehan will be there at 6.30 pm if you would like to meet him beforehand to discuss the meeting. Also, you can email Kevin at info at atheist dot ie.

Mark Hamill · 07-11-2013 12:06AM

I just uploaded mine:

Submission to Constitutional Convention on Separation of Church and State

1.1 Lets ignore everything we have seen and heard about all the despicable things that religious organisations have done (moving around paedophile priests while hampering police investigations) or not done (offer to pay anything even remotely reasonable towards reparations to the victims of the Magdalene laundries while moving assets into trusts to hide them from prosecution) in this country.
1.2 Lets ignore how religious control of our healthcare system has cost the lives of vulnerable women, driven many abroad for necessary treatment and even interfered in the testing of novel anti-cancer drugs because their use would break religious doctrine (by requiring contraception to be used in parallel).
1.3 Lets ignore how our highest positions of office - Uachtarán na hÉireann, Dail Eireann, Council of State, judges - all involve oaths and prayers to a specific god thereby discouraging, disregarding or discriminating against non/alternative believers from interacting with or taking part in them.

1.4 Separation of Church and State boils down to one thing: We should not evoke a god to do the things we are supposed to do to have the best and most effective state we can achieve, a state that best cares for and supports all of its citizens. By evoking a specific god we alienate those that worship another, by evoking any god we alienate those who worship none. By evoking a god we encourage subjective viewpoints to influence decisions in state level institutions and allow the unscrupulous to twist religious interpretation and take advantage of religious insecurities of the public to damage the country for personal gain. By evoking god we allow "I believe" to become an argument in and of itself.

1.5 We can do better than evoking god. From any and all points of view, we are supposed to do better than evoking god - from the theist who believes in objective morality, to the non-theist who simply manages to exist without ethically imploding.

1.6 It is long past time that this country fully welcomes and accommodates those of other religious beliefs and of none, especially those who have been born and raised here. And we cannot do that by tolerating their existence while emphasising one religion over all others and none, in every aspect of life from schooling, to healthcare, to the legal system, to the very politic institutions that are supposedly in service of all citizens equally. Anyone with any degree of compassion, religious or otherwise, would not want such an environment inflicted on their fellow Irish citizen when they know they would not want it inflicted on themselves in any other country they may go.

Hotblack Desiato · 07-11-2013 01:00AM

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Feedback from the Convention’s discussions on Sunday suggested support for ESC Rights, and possibly for Environment or Political Reform, but there was almost no feedback supporting the inclusion of Church and State.

Well that's probably because these measures would be easier to implement and meet less opposition.

To gut the 1937 Constitution of the explicitly religious, christian and roman catholic provisions running through much of the document would involve a large number of changes and there would be substantial opposition (not, I believe, a majority, but enough to be very politically troublesome.)

Honestly I think we should be scrapping it and starting with a blank sheet, and do little other in it than guarantee fundamental rights and set out the basic structures of government and the courts. But that won't happen.

To be honest, we have a dilemma at the moment. The Convention voted to replace the blasphemy clause on Saturday, but 38% of them wanted to keep the 1937 blasphemy reference, and 49% wanted a law against blasphemy on the statute books.

This is so aggravating. But we've never really embraced the concept of personal freedom in Ireland. We are used to an authoritarian state and/or church so the idea of people being allowed to do or say whatever they want is seen by a lot of people as threatening.

An incitement to religious hatred law would be bad enough, but putting that into the constitution would be disastrous, and probably far more restrictive on speech than what we have now. And we'd be stuck with it - at least laws can be much more easily changed when it's clear the people don't support them or they are deeply flawed.

Banbh · 09-11-2013 10:59AM

An incitement to religious hatred law would be bad enough, but putting that into the constitution would be disastrous, and probably far more restrictive on speech than what we have now. And we'd be stuck with it - at least laws can be much more easily changed when it's clear the people don't support them or they are deeply flawed.

I fear we are going to lose this, in light of the Chairman's summary and that's even before the pro-god people have started publicly campaigning.

recedite · 10-11-2013 01:53PM

ninja900 wrote: »

An incitement to religious hatred law would be bad enough, but putting that into the constitution would be disastrous, and probably far more restrictive on speech than what we have now.

I agree this would be a very bad outcome. It could be worse than the blasphemy laws in the sense that it could be more defined, and therefore more usable.
I don't know who came up with the idea of having "incitement to religious hatred" as a separate category to more general incitement to hatred but this proposition is now being bandied about as a viable alternative to the blasphemy laws.

Please do this Today to help Separate Church and State in Ireland

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