Please do this Today to help Separate Church and State in Ireland

Michael Nugent

Today you a have a unique opportunity to help reverse the historic influence of the Catholic Church on the Irish Constitution – a document that begins with the embarrassing anachronism of: “In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority,” and then refers to “our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ,” before making the President, judges and other public office holders swear a religious oath and allowing the Government to discriminate in various ways in favour of religious citizens over nonreligious citizens.

An official State Convention is now looking for public opinions on what changes to recommend to the Constitution. It is a forum of 100 people, made up of 66 citizens, 33 parliamentarians, and an independent Chairman. It will ask the Government to hold referendums on the issues that it thinks need changing.

The Government asked the Convention to discuss several specific topics, including the electoral system, same-sex marriage, the role of women and the crime of blasphemy. It will finish dealing with those topics this weekend, and will then move on to the final item on its agenda – any other issues on which it wants to recommend change.

How you can influence the process today

For the final item on its agenda, the members of the Convention will choose two or maybe three additional items to discuss. They are now asking the public to give them our opinions, to help them to make up their minds. You can give your opinion on their website and by attending regional public meetings.

So what two or maybe three items will they choose? So far there have been strong campaigns asking them to choose ESC rights (economic, social and cultural rights) and protection of the environment. We now need to have a similar campaign to ask them to choose Separation of Church and State.

Please spend a few minutes to do the following three things:

1. Today, make your own personal submission to the Convention

This is the easiest way for you to influence the process. If you do this, you can help today to bring Separation of Church and State in Ireland a little bit closer.

Just write a few paragraphs (as long or as short as you like) explaining why you personally believe that we need Separation of Church and State in Ireland, and why you want the Constitution changed to reflect that.

Then go to the Constitutional Convention website and upload your submission.

• You can read other submissions on this page.
• You can read the Atheist Ireland submission here.
• You can make your own personal submission on this page.

Select the category “Other” from the drop-down menu, fill in your details and a short summary of the changes you want. You can first save your comments in word text or pdf file, and then attach the file using the “attach document” box on the website.

2. Today, ask your friends to make their own personal submissions

Also, please ask other friends or colleagues who support the need for Separation of Church and State to go to the website and make their own personal submissions.

This is a rare opportunity for us to work together to help to bring about constitutional change on this issue, and we need to convince the Convention members that a lot of people want them to select this as one of the final items on their agenda.

Please pass on the link to this page to any of your friends who support the need for Separation of Church and State, and please discuss the issue with friends in real life and on any relevant online forums.

3. Attend the nearest of the Convention’s Regional Public Meetings

Please make plans today to do this. It is the next most important thing that you can do to help influence the Convention to include Separation of Church and State onto its agenda.

The Convention is holding regional public meetings to ask people what items they want to see added to the agenda. There will be members of the Convention at each public meeting. You will be able to speak and to vote for the items you want them to discuss.

They are only going to choose two or maybe three, and at the first meeting in Cork, people voted for four items in this order: ESC Rights, Protecting the Environment, Local Government Reform and Separation of Church and State.

If we are to show the Convention members that we want them to include Separation of Church and State on its agenda, we need to have people attending these meetings and speaking and voting for Separation of Church and State.

The Cork public meeting has already taken place. Here is the schedule of the rest of the public meetings. They each start at 7pm.

• Galway - 30th of October – National University of Ireland.
• Waterford – 7th of November – Waterford City Hall
• Dublin – 11th of November – Dublin City University (DCU)
• Dublin – 13th of November – Royal Irish Academy (RIA)
• Sligo – 19th of November – Sligo Borough Council
• Athlone – 20th of November – Radisson SAS
• Monaghan – 25th of November – Monaghan Education Campus

Atheist Ireland’s Regional Officer, Kevin Sheehan will be attending all of these meetings. He will be there at 6.30 pm if you would like to meet him beforehand to discuss the meeting. Also, you can email Kevin at info at atheist dot ie.

Summary of the Atheist Ireland submission

Here is the executive summary of Atheist Ireland’s submission to the Convention.

Atheist Ireland is an advocacy group for atheism, reason and ethical secularism. We are the only advocacy group in Ireland that promotes the political cause of Separation of Church and State as a primary aim. We are participants in the dialogue process between the Government and religious and philosophical bodies. We participate in events organised by international bodies such as the United Nations, the European Union, the Council of Europe and the OSCE. We work with other advocacy groups who are seeking to bring about an ethical society.

One of the most striking features of the Irish Constitution is its overt theistic, religious, Christian and Roman Catholic character. This is a result of the political personnel and culture of the Ireland of the 1930s, and it is entirely inappropriate for the Ireland of the 21st century. If the Convention is to make serious substantive proposals for change, it must address this issue and the problems that it has caused over the decades. We ask you to add secularisation and Separation of Church and State as one of the additional items on your agenda.

Atheist Ireland wants a secular Irish Constitution, which respects equally the right of every citizen to our religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs, with the State remaining neutral on these beliefs. Religious States promote religion, atheist States promote atheism, and secular States promote neither, but respect equally the right of each citizen to hold and manifest their personal beliefs. In a pluralist democratic society such as Ireland, a secular Constitution is the only way to protect equally the rights of religious and nonreligious people.

We recommend the following three categories of amendments:

(a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

(b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

(c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

Remember the three ways you can influence the process:

1. Today, make your own personal submission to the Convention

2. Today, ask your friends to make their own personal submissions

3. Attend the nearest of the Convention’s Regional Public Meetings

Please take a few minutes today to help to make this happen. In particular, if you live near Galway, please attend the Galway public meeting this Wednesday evening.
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[-0-]

Done. I only see submissions up until the 25th of this month. I guess the website is just badly put together.

wretcheddomain

[-0-] wrote: »

Done. I only see submissions up until the 25th of this month. I guess the website is just badly put together.

I would assume this was due to work finishing on Friday evening, the new ones should be up from tomorrow I'd imagine.

Michael Nugent

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I would assume this was due to work finishing on Friday evening, the new ones should be up from tomorrow I'd imagine.

Yes, submitting them online doesn't automatically publish them. The Convention secretariat publish them manually.

FouxDaFaFa

Done and done. I'll try to get a few other people to do it too.

swampgas

I don't see any references or submissions on article 40.3.3, does anyone know if this is specifically excluded from the terms of reference of the convention?

Michael Nugent

swampgas wrote: »

I don't see any references or submissions on article 40.3.3, does anyone know if this is specifically excluded from the terms of reference of the convention?

No, nothing is specifically excluded.

Atheist Ireland referred to it within our submission in our section on fundamental rights:

Atheist Ireland wrote:

Article 40.3.3 states that: “The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.”

This Article was inserted into the Constitution after a campaign based on enforcing Catholic teaching about abortion on all citizens through the Constitution. It discriminates against women who wish to terminate a pregnancy in order to protect their bodily autonomy and maintain the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health. Women do not have the same right as men to physical and mental health when living in Ireland.

We recommend: Remove this Section from the Constitution to enable the Oireachtas to pass laws that base healthcare decisions on compassion, human rights, personal autonomy, and the medical needs of patients.

swampgas

Submission done.

Michael Nugent

There are fifteen new submissions published on the Convention website today asking them to include secularism / separation of church and state. Thank you to those who have made the submissions.

If you haven't already made a submission, please do so today, and please ask others to do so also.

There are now approximately 40 submissions so far on secularism / separation of church and state.

That compares to about 130-140 each for ESC rights and protecting the environment, and about 120 collectively on other topics.

The Convention has said that it is likely to discuss two, or maybe three, items under the final item on its agenda, so it is really important that we get as many submissions as we can onto their website.

Also, if you live near Galway, please attend the Convention's public meeting in NUIG at 7 pm this Wednesday, October 30th.

Atheist Ireland’s Regional Officer, Kevin Sheehan will be there at 6.30 pm if you would like to meet him beforehand to discuss the meeting. Also, you can email Kevin at info at atheist dot ie.

iDave

Done.

Notice Blasphemy is an option on the drop down. Are you recommending we make a seperate submission on this subject?

Michael Nugent

iDave wrote: »

Done.

Notice Blasphemy is an option on the drop down. Are you recommending we make a submission on this subject?

Yes, that would be helpful too.

They are discussing blasphemy this Saturday.

Atheist Ireland will be making a presentation on why the clause should be removed. We will have Prof David Nash of Oxford Brookes University on our presentation team - he is an academic who specialises in blasphemy laws and helped get the British blasphemy law repealed.

You can read our submission on blasphemy here.

So yes, extra submissions on blasphemy will be helpful, but extra submissions on secularism / separation of church and state are more important at this stage as we need to get that item onto the Convention's agenda whereas blasphemy already is on their agenda.

robindch

Has anybody complained specifically about 44.2.2 "The State guarantees not to endow any religion."

The English word "endow" usually means "fund, pay for, support" etc, but I gather that some High Court or Supreme Court judge interpreted it at some point during the 60's or 70's to mean something else, obviously in favour of religion.

Is there any meaningful clarification that can be added here?

44.2.2.1: "The State guarantees not to provide funds or assets to any religious organization."

or

44.2.2.1: "The State guarantees not to provide funds or assets to any religious organization, without an equal provision being made available to any other religion."

or:

44.2.2.1: "The State guarantees not to provide funds or assets to any religious organization for the advancement of religion."

and add:

44.2.2.2: "The advancement of religion is not an act of charity."


44.2.3

---

Currently: "The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status."

Update: "The State, or any organization which receives funds or assets from the State, shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status."

Michael Nugent

The problem is that there are so many references to religion, and each must be read in conjunction with the others.

For example, Article 44.1 states that: “The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.” The 1996 Constitutional Review Group found that: “In effect, this section imposes an obligation on the State to refrain from engaging in what might loosely be termed ‘atheistic propaganda’ and prevents the State from adopting a policy which is actively hostile to religion.”

And Article 44.2.3 states: “The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.” This prevents the state from discriminating between one religion and another religion, but it does not prevent the state from discriminating between religions and nonreligious philosophical convictions.

All of these interacting references allow (or arguably even oblige) the State to discriminate in favour of religious beliefs and against nonreligious philosophical beliefs.

But this goes against our obligations in various human rights treaties which we have signed up to. International human rights law views nonreligious philosophical convictions as equally worthy of protection as religious beliefs. The Irish Government pays lip service to that obligation, but our Constitution says otherwise.

Michael Nugent

robindch wrote: »

44.2.2.1: "The State guarantees not to provide funds or assets to any religious organization, without an equal provision being made available to any other religion."

If you are suggesting something like this, I would add "... and to any organisation representing nonreligious philosophical convictions."

I would prefer that no State money be given to either, but if it is being given to religious bodies then it should also be given to nonreligious bodies.

Michael Nugent

robindch wrote: »

44.2.2.1: "The State guarantees not to provide funds or assets to any religious organization for the advancement of religion."

and add:

44.2.2.2: "The advancement of religion is not an act of charity."

I think this is good.

robindch wrote: »

44.2.3

---

Currently: "The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status."

Update: "The State, or any organization which receives funds or assets from the State, shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status."

This is a useful distinction.

It would also be useful to incorporate the need to not discriminate between religious and nonreligious citizens. The current wording only stops them from discriminating between one religion and another religion.

wretcheddomain

"The State must ban Atheist Ireland with immediate effect." Article 44.2.2.1.05

robindch

Just submitted the attached.

Zillah

Posted the following:

For far too long the Irish constitution has explicitly favoured the beliefs and power of one religion over others, and over those of no religion. The constitution of a republic should guarantee liberty for all of its citizens, and create an environment that is safe for all. In the arena of public debate the constitution should be the neutral bedrock on which we stand, not an active combatant favouring one side over the other.

I submit to the convention that the constitution should be amended to remove all references that privilege religious belief, including references to the status and power of God or any religious institution or figure, as well as removing the offense of blasphemy.

We are a modern republic and should conduct ourselves with the dignity of a modern republic, and not drag an archaic ball-and-chain of a constitution into the 21st century.


Decided to keep it general. They know the articles in question. I've also put an appeal on Facebook.

I often don't vote but something like this I can totally get on board with.

robindch

One of the admins on the constitution.ie website just emailed to say that there's a bit of an approvals backlog at the moment, so anybody who's submitted something in the last couple of days might have to wait a while more before any submissions are approved and posted, if approved.

Michael Nugent

robindch wrote: »

One of the admins on the constitution.ie website just emailed to say that there's a bit of an approvals backlog at the moment, so anybody who's submitted something in the last couple of days might have to wait a while more before any submissions are approved and posted, if approved.

I hope that this reflects that people are making submissions on secularism / separation of church and state.

If it doesn't, it reflects that other submissions are also being made on competing issues.

Whichever it is, please make a submission on on secularism / separation of church and state, if you have not already done so.

Michael Nugent

wretcheddomain wrote: »

"The State must ban Atheist Ireland with immediate effect." Article 44.2.2.1.05

That should be Article 6.6.6

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

Just submitted the attached.

Add 42.2.3, “The State shall not permit schools controlled by a religious or non-religious organization to indoctrinate or to attempt to indoctrinate a child with religious or nonreligious convictions incompatible with the wishes of its parents or guardians.”

Might that allow religious parents to block the discussion of atheism, agnosticism or secularism in school? The wording isn't a million miles away from 'don't talk about gayness' laws.

B. “The State guarantees not to provide funds or assets to any religion without an equal provision of funds or assets being made available to all religions.”.

In practice, it will not be possible to halt the funding of hundreds of religious-run schools and tens of hospitals overnight, or clearly differentiate between what government spending to run schools is 'secular' and what is 'religious', except in a few cases like paying chaplains. If the State provides funds to hundreds of christian schools, do they have to provide equal funds to scientology even though they have no schools?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Separating church from state in Ireland raises an issue of coherence. I think it's highlighted in the way that deleting references to Catholicism necessarily includes deleting the reference to the "centuries of trial" that provided the traditional narrative supporting the creation of an independent Irish state.

We can delete all that stuff, but we'll still have no coherent explanation for why we happen to find ourselves in an independent state, and no shared conception around what common values we feel this state should protect.

Zillah

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Separating church from state in Ireland raises an issue of coherence. I think it's highlighted in the way that deleting references to Catholicism necessarily includes deleting the reference to the "centuries of trial" that provided the traditional narrative supporting the creation of an independent Irish state.

We can delete all that stuff, but we'll still have no coherent explanation for why we happen to find ourselves in an independent state, and no shared conception around what common values we feel this state should protect.

What on Earth on you talking about? We're not planning on rewriting history books. I would have thought that the "common values" the state should protect are some of the basic fundamentals of what it means to be a republic. In the rich tradition of republics.

FouxDaFaFa

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Separating church from state in Ireland raises an issue of coherence. I think it's highlighted in the way that deleting references to Catholicism necessarily includes deleting the reference to the "centuries of trial" that provided the traditional narrative supporting the creation of an independent Irish state.

We can delete all that stuff, but we'll still have no coherent explanation for why we happen to find ourselves in an independent state, and no shared conception around what common values we feel this state should protect.

The Constitition is supposed to be a living document. By their nature, they don't tend to change much over the years but they're not supposed to be history books.

Change to them shouldn't be taken lightly but we shouldn't look at it as some kind of sacred, untouchable document either.

I mean, you still have all that ridiculous stuff about women's place in the home in the Irish one.

robindch

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

[...] deleting the reference to the "centuries of trial" that provided the traditional narrative supporting the creation of an independent Irish state.

The Constitution defines the rights and responsibilities of the state, its institutions and citizens.

It's not, as Zillah suggests, a history book, nor does it have any role in providing anybody with one "narrative" or another, any more than it should contain a protracted whinge about Irish cooking, and of course, rain and potatoes.

robindch

ninja900 wrote: »

If the State provides funds to hundreds of christian schools, do they have to provide equal funds to scientology even though they have no schools?

The point of producing that alternative is to get people to see that the current situation is openly unfair and can only be resolved -- while preserving religious privilege -- at great expense. Hence that the other alternative, to remove religious privilege, is the rational choice.

robindch

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I hope that this reflects that people are making submissions on secularism / separation of church and state.

Ah, somebody's just updated the website with fifty or sixty submissions on the separation of church and state.

Let's see what happens.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Zillah wrote: »

I would have thought that the "common values" the state should protect are some of the basic fundamentals of what it means to be a republic. In the rich tradition of republics.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

The Constitition is supposed to be a living document. By their nature, they don't tend to change much over the years but they're not supposed to be history books.

robindch wrote: »

It's not, as Zillah suggests, a history book, nor does it have any role in providing anybody with one "narrative" or another, any more than it should contain a protracted whinge about Irish cooking, and of course, rain and potatoes.

I'm not sure that "whatever oul' nonsense republics do " is enough to amount to the kind of deep, shared identification that you'd need for a common set of values. The Constitution we have doesn't just happen to have a scattering of references to deities in general or a Trinity in particular. It was written because of a shared belief that the purpose of the independent Irish State was to promote and sustain a community that would be predominantly Irish speaking, Catholic and rural. It contains measures in support of all three of those themes. Those themes are what makes it coherent, to the extent that it is.

Now, the country has changed immensely since then. Possibly, the basis and need for an independent Irish state has vanished. Maybe we don't need to worry about being excluded on grounds of religion, because we no longer subscribe. The point is not about re-writing history. The point is about identifying what, if anything, coherently unites us. That has to be something that you can express as a positive statement.

You can't remove at least one, if not two or possibly all three of the pillars that the Constitution sits on, and expect what remains to make sense.

I'd suspect the reason this convention is working on the basis of inviting people to send in piecemeal changes is precisely to avoid posing the question of what fundemental values we now hold, given that the original values that permiate the constitution are no longer relevant.

wretcheddomain

Looks like the campaign to increase submissions is having some success with the last 5 pages of submissions more or less full of the words Secularism and Separation. 70 submissions or so sounds pretty good to me, but more is needed!! :-)

Morag

swampgas wrote: »

I don't see any references or submissions on article 40.3.3, does anyone know if this is specifically excluded from the terms of reference of the convention?

No it's not and there are several pro choice groups ending in submissions on that
and calling for it to be repealed.

People can also send in personal submission on removing 40.3.3.
I send one in from an equality point of view after Minister Shatters remarks in the Dáil.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

The point of producing that alternative is to get people to see that the current situation is openly unfair and can only be resolved -- while preserving religious privilege -- at great expense. Hence that the other alternative, to remove religious privilege, is the rational choice.

Yeah, I get that, which is why I mentioned that it will not be possible to change this overnight, however desirable this change would be.

There'd have to be some sort of transitory arrangement, perhaps a year or two? but not more.


GCU - As for what unites or defines us once RCC hegemony is dismantled :rolleyes: is it not enough to state that we are people of Ireland, with common democratic and republican (small R) values. Several European nations have had massive changes in their territory in the last century, Poland and Germany aren't where they once were but Poles are still Poles and Germans still German.

The German Basic Law is a decent model for a modern republic IMHO (although it doesn't ban state funding of religion.)

Michael Nugent

Good news so far. This time last week, we started to ask people to make submissions about Secularism / Separation of Church and State.

Since then, there have been 59 new submissions about Secularism / Separation of Church and State, bringing it up from 24 this time last week, to 83 today.

Environment (137) and Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (133) are still ahead, but Separation of Church and State is rapidly catching up.

The Convention has said that it is likely to discuss two, or maybe three, items under the final item on its agenda, so it is really important that we get as many submissions as we can onto their website.

The decision won't be made simply by counting the number of submissions, but it will help to influence the decision, so the more we can get the better.

If you have already made a submission, thank you. If you haven't already made a submission, please do so today. Either way, please ask others to do so also.

Also, if you live near Waterford, please attend the Convention's public meeting in Waterford City Hall at 7 pm next Thursday, November 7th.

Atheist Ireland’s Regional Officer, Kevin Sheehan will be there at 6.30 pm if you would like to meet him beforehand to discuss the meeting. Also, you can email Kevin at info at atheist dot ie.

Zillah

Dozens of new submissions calling for a secular constitution and we get this:

Convention to consider the removal of the offence of blasphemy 31/10/2013
The Convention on the Constitution will meet in plenary session this coming weekend (2/3 November) to consider the eighth item of its terms of reference - the removal from the Constitution of the offence of blasphemy.

The plenary meeting will be streamed live on www.constitution.ie on Saturday (9.30am-5.30pm) and on Sunday (10am-1pm).

***************

Good start, but why focus on that sole issue? Seems cynical to get dozens of calls for separation of church and state and then pick a single, small part of that issue.

Dubbug

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Today you a have a unique opportunity to help reverse the historic influence of the Catholic Church on the Irish Constitution – a document that begins with the embarrassing anachronism of: “In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority,” and then refers to “our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ,” before making the President, judges and other public office holders swear a religious oath and allowing the Government to discriminate in various ways in favour of religious citizens over nonreligious citizens.

An official State Convention is now looking for public opinions on what changes to recommend to the Constitution. It is a forum of 100 people, made up of 66 citizens, 33 parliamentarians, and an independent Chairman. It will ask the Government to hold referendums on the issues that it thinks need changing.

The Government asked the Convention to discuss several specific topics, including the electoral system, same-sex marriage, the role of women and the crime of blasphemy. It will finish dealing with those topics this weekend, and will then move on to the final item on its agenda – any other issues on which it wants to recommend change.

How you can influence the process today

For the final item on its agenda, the members of the Convention will choose two or maybe three additional items to discuss. They are now asking the public to give them our opinions, to help them to make up their minds. You can give your opinion on their website and by attending regional public meetings.

So what two or maybe three items will they choose? So far there have been strong campaigns asking them to choose ESC rights (economic, social and cultural rights) and protection of the environment. We now need to have a similar campaign to ask them to choose Separation of Church and State.

Please spend a few minutes to do the following three things:

1. Today, make your own personal submission to the Convention

This is the easiest way for you to influence the process. If you do this, you can help today to bring Separation of Church and State in Ireland a little bit closer.

Just write a few paragraphs (as long or as short as you like) explaining why you personally believe that we need Separation of Church and State in Ireland, and why you want the Constitution changed to reflect that.

Then go to the Constitutional Convention website and upload your submission.

• You can read other submissions on this page.
• You can read the Atheist Ireland submission here.
• You can make your own personal submission on this page.

Select the category “Other” from the drop-down menu, fill in your details and a short summary of the changes you want. You can first save your comments in word text or pdf file, and then attach the file using the “attach document” box on the website.

2. Today, ask your friends to make their own personal submissions

Also, please ask other friends or colleagues who support the need for Separation of Church and State to go to the website and make their own personal submissions.

This is a rare opportunity for us to work together to help to bring about constitutional change on this issue, and we need to convince the Convention members that a lot of people want them to select this as one of the final items on their agenda.

Please pass on the link to this page to any of your friends who support the need for Separation of Church and State, and please discuss the issue with friends in real life and on any relevant online forums.

3. Attend the nearest of the Convention’s Regional Public Meetings

Please make plans today to do this. It is the next most important thing that you can do to help influence the Convention to include Separation of Church and State onto its agenda.

The Convention is holding regional public meetings to ask people what items they want to see added to the agenda. There will be members of the Convention at each public meeting. You will be able to speak and to vote for the items you want them to discuss.

They are only going to choose two or maybe three, and at the first meeting in Cork, people voted for four items in this order: ESC Rights, Protecting the Environment, Local Government Reform and Separation of Church and State.

If we are to show the Convention members that we want them to include Separation of Church and State on its agenda, we need to have people attending these meetings and speaking and voting for Separation of Church and State.

The Cork public meeting has already taken place. Here is the schedule of the rest of the public meetings. They each start at 7pm.

• Galway - 30th of October – National University of Ireland.
• Waterford – 7th of November – Waterford City Hall
• Dublin – 11th of November – Dublin City University (DCU)
• Dublin – 13th of November – Royal Irish Academy (RIA)
• Sligo – 19th of November – Sligo Borough Council
• Athlone – 20th of November – Radisson SAS
• Monaghan – 25th of November – Monaghan Education Campus

Atheist Ireland’s Regional Officer, Kevin Sheehan will be attending all of these meetings. He will be there at 6.30 pm if you would like to meet him beforehand to discuss the meeting. Also, you can email Kevin at info at atheist dot ie.

Summary of the Atheist Ireland submission

Here is the executive summary of Atheist Ireland’s submission to the Convention.

Atheist Ireland is an advocacy group for atheism, reason and ethical secularism. We are the only advocacy group in Ireland that promotes the political cause of Separation of Church and State as a primary aim. We are participants in the dialogue process between the Government and religious and philosophical bodies. We participate in events organised by international bodies such as the United Nations, the European Union, the Council of Europe and the OSCE. We work with other advocacy groups who are seeking to bring about an ethical society.

One of the most striking features of the Irish Constitution is its overt theistic, religious, Christian and Roman Catholic character. This is a result of the political personnel and culture of the Ireland of the 1930s, and it is entirely inappropriate for the Ireland of the 21st century. If the Convention is to make serious substantive proposals for change, it must address this issue and the problems that it has caused over the decades. We ask you to add secularisation and Separation of Church and State as one of the additional items on your agenda.

Atheist Ireland wants a secular Irish Constitution, which respects equally the right of every citizen to our religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs, with the State remaining neutral on these beliefs. Religious States promote religion, atheist States promote atheism, and secular States promote neither, but respect equally the right of each citizen to hold and manifest their personal beliefs. In a pluralist democratic society such as Ireland, a secular Constitution is the only way to protect equally the rights of religious and nonreligious people.

We recommend the following three categories of amendments:

(a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

(b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

(c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

Remember the three ways you can influence the process:

1. Today, make your own personal submission to the Convention

2. Today, ask your friends to make their own personal submissions

3. Attend the nearest of the Convention’s Regional Public Meetings

Please take a few minutes today to help to make this happen. In particular, if you live near Galway, please attend the Galway public meeting this Wednesday evening.
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Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Dubbug

Zillah wrote: »

Dozens of new submissions calling for a secular constitution and we get this:

Convention to consider the removal of the offence of blasphemy 31/10/2013
The Convention on the Constitution will meet in plenary session this coming weekend (2/3 November) to consider the eighth item of its terms of reference - the removal from the Constitution of the offence of blasphemy.

The plenary meeting will be streamed live on www.constitution.ie on Saturday (9.30am-5.30pm) and on Sunday (10am-1pm).

***************

Good start, but why focus on that sole issue? Seems cynical to get dozens of calls for separation of church and state and then pick a single, small part of that issue.

Separation of Church and state is a two-way street.

MrPudding

Dubbug wrote: »

Separation of Church and state is a two-way street.

Are you worries about the protection of catholic children ?

MrP

robindch

MrPudding wrote: »

Are you worries about the protection of catholic children?

Ooooo!

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Zillah wrote: »

<...> Good start, but why focus on that sole issue? Seems cynical to get dozens of calls for separation of church and state and then pick a single, small part of that issue.

Their deliberation on blasphemy isn't particularly on foot of public consultations. It would be taking place anyway, as it is part of their original terms of reference:

https://www.constitution.ie/AboutUs.aspx

Michael Nugent

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Their deliberation on blasphemy isn't particularly on foot of public consultations. It would be taking place anyway, as it is part of their original terms of reference:

https://www.constitution.ie/AboutUs.aspx

That's right. The Government told them to discuss several specific issues, the last of which was blasphemy. That debate was already scheduled for this weekend.

After that, they can add other items onto the final item on their agenda, which will take place in February. It is under this 'other' agenda category that we are trying to get separation of church and state included.

Michael Nugent

Dubbug wrote: »

Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Thank you for quoting the entirety of my post.

Your promotional assistance is acknowledged.

iDave

Dubbug wrote: »

Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Church of Atheism is an oxymoron

PopePalpatine

Dubbug wrote: »

Busy promoting the Irish Church of Atheism I see.

Hello Fr. McKevitt, goodbye Fr. McKevitt! :pac:

robindch

Here's the Knights of Columbanus on blasphemy in the Constitution. They like it.

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=d41e4103-e542-e311-8571-005056a32ee4

MrPudding

Hmmm, can't get to it.

MrP

robindch

^^^ it's a link to a PDF. And it's available from the main submissions page too:

https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx

btw, very rapidly followed up by another submission by an A+A poster. Beer's on me next time, Sean!

Hotblack Desiato

Just sent one in. They don't accept ODT or even RTF :rolleyes:

swampgas

robindch wrote: »

Here's the Knights of Columbanus on blasphemy in the Constitution. They like it.

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=d41e4103-e542-e311-8571-005056a32ee4

What's interesting is how the KoC justify the constitutional prohibition on blasphemy using the Constitution's other explicit references to God and Catholicism.

22. On balance we contend that the constitutional provision on blasphemy should be retained for the
following reasons:

i) it is in harmony with the Constitution’s expressed reverence for God and religion

So it may well be that the issues of secularism and blasphemy are interlinked to such an extent that the only sensible way to remove blasphemy from the constitution may be to also remove many of the explicit references to God and religion.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

swampgas wrote: »

So it may well be that the issues of secularism and blasphemy are interlinked to such an extent that the only sensible way to remove blasphemy from the constitution may be to also remove many of the explicit references to God and religion.

I'd continue to plow the same lonely furrow, which I think your point illustrates.

I think you are right. IF the Constitution reveres God and religion, and claims that the Trinity is the ultimate source of all authority, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to delete blasphemy. What does all that reverence mean, if there isn't some sanction?

That's why I'd suggest what's actually needed is a full step back from the Constitution, to pose the question of what kind of society we think we're forming. That might give us some clue as to what's important, and what isn't.

Maybe blasphemy should stay, or go. But its hard to assess without a more fundamental agreement over how we actually conceive of our State, and how we actually conceive of the rights it should be protecting. For the sake of argument, I've a dim memory of someone saying that the Life of Brian was banned in Sweden under legislation protecting minority beliefs from persecution. I'm not saying we'd follow that line. I am saying that a piecemeal consideration of blasphemy isn't useful.

wretcheddomain

Any updates on the figures?

Hotblack Desiato

They won't have added any submissions to the website over the weekend.

Here's the text of my one (not up yet) :

Separation of Church and State

We should bring about a complete separation of church and State in our Constitution and laws.

Our Constitution is the founding document of our nation. It should be inclusive of all citizens. It should promote values of democracy, inclusivity, tolerance and freedom. Instead we have a document which, notwithstanding the removal of the explicit reference to a 'special position' of the Catholic Church, continues to promote a particular religious point of view. This is unacceptable in a modern pluralist democracy.

The Constitution has a preamble which states that power is derived not from the people, but from a god, and an explicitly Christian god at that. It requires judges and Presidents to take explicitly Christian, religious, oaths on appointment. It quashes free speech by obliging the State to prohibit blasphemy. The rights of women are not held equal to those of men. Article 41.2 all but states that a woman's place is in the home. The effect of Article 40.3.3 is that the bodily integrity and right to life and health of a woman is inferior to that of a man.

Article 44.1 is particularly offensive to non-believers (and certain religious believers also) and is not compatible in any way with a pluralist democratic republic.

Notwithstanding Article 44.2, the State does fund religious indoctrination in our schools, and permits employment and enrolment policies which are explicitly discriminatory against members of minority religions and non-believers. Education funded by the State must be inclusive of all, and free of indoctrination.

The State must ensure that there is no Constitutional barrier to holding religious bodies legally and financially accountable for wrongdoing.

The promotion of a religion should not be subsidised by taxpayers through charitable status or tax reliefs. Religious bodies should not be treated any more favourably than secular clubs or associations.