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Numbers up Gerry

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Comments

  • #662
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    The fact you're talking about a group fighting in a conflict zone that isn't even in the ROI kind of says all I need to know on your knowledge northern irelands troubled past.

    Thank you Jack for the Geography lesson.

    Sadly , I am extremely aware of Northern Ireland's troubled past.

    Let us go back to the thread for fear we may go off topic.

    The documentary last night highlighted that Mrs. McConville, widow, mother of 10 children was murdered by the IRA Fact1.

    Ms.Nuala O'Loan confirmed that Mrs. McConville was not an informer Fact 2.

    As for Mr Adams.......?? Well it was pretty clear to all the viewers that he has acquired some Dazzling new teeth.:D

    Have a good evening.

    Apologies I can't debate this further as I'm heading out to Dinner:)


  • #663
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    Nuala O Loan was the police ombudsman. She had no access to British military or intelligence files or obviously enough to IRA personnel.

    Given this, I found her comments on the doc quite bizarre to say the least.

    She'd have more information on it than I'd say anybody on this thread. The IRA are going to say she was an informer, I take it they thought she was at the time, that doesn't mean she was.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #664
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Painted Pony wrote: »
    I think you could make your list a bit longer. Many “believe” that there was collusion between British forces and loyalists paramilitaries during the troubles. More “believe” there was a shoot to kill policy and even more still “believe” that the British were involved in the Dublin / Monaghan bombings.


    My god you're right. How ever will we tell if these things are true or not.

    Maybe its not possible to, maybe we should just assume something if it sounds about right.

    Globe shaped world indeed haw haw haw.


  • #665
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    K-9 wrote: »
    She'd have more information on it than I'd say anybody on this thread. The IRA are going to say she was an informer, I take it they thought she was at the time, that doesn't mean she was.

    She stated that Jean McConville was killed because she was a protestant living in west Belfast as though it was a fact.

    She has about as much info on this murder as anyone other than those directly involved which is fvck all.

    There were other protestants forced to move to west Belfast at the time so why weren't they killed as well?

    I think it should have been made clear she was giving a personal opinion. Otherwise, I thought the programme was excellent.


  • #666
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    No
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The IRA existed, did what they did and achieved what they achieved.

    The IRA achieved sweet f*ck all seeing as partition still exists and the North is governed by a devolved administration more or less exactly the same as that offered at Sunningdale (albeit scuppered by loyalists) nearly 40 years ago.


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  • #667
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    anncoates wrote: »
    The IRA achieved sweet f*ck all seeing as partition still exists and the North is governed by a devolved administration more or less exactly the same as that offered at Sunningdale (albeit scuppered by loyalists) nearly 40 years ago.

    Marty sharing leadership? SF invested in every administrative dept and growing as a party in the South. The British saying they are no longer interested and it is up to the people of the island to decide their own future.

    You are having a laugh?


  • #668
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    anncoates wrote: »
    The IRA achieved sweet f*ck all seeing as partition still exists and the North is governed by a devolved administration more or less exactly the same as that offered at Sunningdale (albeit scuppered by loyalists) nearly 40 years ago.

    Well they managed to prevent their own slaughter at the hands of B-specials, murder gangs, ruc et al and obtain civil right, prevent more bombay street type burning of houses, and lean enough on the apartheid govt to the point where they had a bargaining chip towards civil rights.

    Or maybe they should have just sat back and took it.


  • #669
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,210 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    No
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Marty sharing leadership? SF invested in every administrative dept and growing as a party in the South. The British saying they are no longer interested and it is up to the people of the island to decide their own future.

    You are having a laugh?

    Can you provide a quote where the British government declared they were no longer interested? :confused:


  • #670
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    awec wrote: »
    Can you provide a quote where the British government declared they were no longer interested? :confused:
    During the later stages of the Brooke / Mayhew initiative, Irish nationalists were pursuing an alternative strategy. The Hume / Adams dialogue, which had started in 1988, was re-established in the early 1990s and was to provide the main stimulus for the Downing Street Declaration of December 1993. The Declaration stated that Britain had 'no selfish, strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland' and aimed to bring Sinn Féin (SF) to the negotiating table via a ceasefire from the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/aia/after.htm

    (My emphasis).

    Basically, 'do with it what ye will'.


  • #671
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,210 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    No
    That's different to what Happyman42 said.

    Anyway, surely the only people who removed their interest where the people of the Republic of Ireland who voted overwhelmingly to remove the claim they had on Northern Ireland?

    How much more of a "do with it what ye will" can you get than that?

    The fate of Northern Ireland will be determined by the majority in Northern Ireland. That fact has never changed.


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  • #672
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    delthedriver wrote: »
    .........................................................
    .........................................................................................................
    .................................................................

    Have a good evening.

    Apologies I can't debate this further as I'm heading out to Dinner:)

    At least we now know that the above poster is not Jackie Healy-Rae.

    Down his way people eat dinner around noontime


  • #673
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    (My emphasis).

    Basically, 'do with it what ye will'.

    Polls for the G.B public say the same.
    They want rid of it.


  • #674
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    awec wrote: »
    Can you provide a quote where the British government declared they were no longer interested? :confused:

    The GFA:
    (ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
    agreement between the two parts re
    spectively and without external
    impediment, to exercise their right
    of self-determination on the basis of
    consent, freely and concurrently gi
    ven, North and South, to bring about a
    united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
    achieved and exercised with and subject
    to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland

    in other words, 'we're outta here as soon as we get the chance'. No Thatcherian Warships sailing the high seas in rescue missions, just a simple handover and withdrawal.


  • #675
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    No
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It's not the first time the grief and suffering of families has been exploited for cheap television and other agendas. They need to be careful about that.

    Was it exploitative? I thought it was very restrained and I'm sure the only agenda that the families care about is finding the bodies. The IRA have immunity from prosecution.


  • #676
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,210 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    No
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The GFA:


    in other words, 'we're outta here as soon as we get the chance'. No Thatcherian Warships sailing the high seas in rescue missions, just a simple handover and withdrawal.

    A handover and withdrawal once the people of Northern Ireland say so.

    I.e - the same as it has been since... its entire existence?


  • #677
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Wattle wrote: »
    Was it exploitative? I thought it was very restrained and I'm sure the only agenda that the families care about is finding the bodies. The IRA have immunity from prosecution.

    Not in the mconville case.


  • #678
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    No
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Marty sharing leadership? SF invested in every administrative dept and growing as a party in the South. The British saying they are no longer interested and it is up to the people of the island to decide their own future.

    You are having a laugh?

    Highly Instructive that all the SF heads spend the whole thread saying they have nothing to do with the IRA and then when I say that the IRA achieved nothing, you think I'm talking about SF.


  • #679
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,210 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    No
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It's not the first time the grief and suffering of families has been exploited for cheap television and other agendas. They need to be careful about that.

    Yes, it's definitely the media causing these families grief and not the people who murdered their loved ones and didn't even have the decency to return a body. :rolleyes:

    Would you listen to yourself?


  • #680
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    awec wrote: »
    That's different to what Happyman42 said.

    I think that's what he meant?
    Anyway, surely the only people who removed their interest where the people of the Republic of Ireland who voted overwhelmingly to remove the claim they had on Northern Ireland? How much more of a "do with it what ye will" can you get than that?

    The claim was dropped to placate Unionists, the aspiration of a UI remains codified in the constitution.
    Article 3 (1)

    It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island.


  • #681
    Buzz84
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭Buzz84


    No
    delthedriver wrote: »
    They got it wrong so!

    When you finally watch the documentary you will hear Nuala O'Loan confirm that Mrs. McConville was not an informer.

    Unless of course you know something else?

    So you are going on everything that was said in the Documentary as fact. Then I'm sure you seen the bit where Hughes says she was an informer. Or does that not suit your agenda?


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  • #682
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Wattle wrote: »
    Was it exploitative? I thought it was very restrained and I'm sure the only agenda that the families care about is finding the bodies. The IRA have immunity from prosecution.

    Yes it was exploitative as RTE cherrypick this case from the vaults of misery whenever their masters decide it is time to have a pop at SF. We see no similar investigations into other cases of equal and worse misery caused by the conflict.
    awec wrote: »
    A handover and withdrawal once the people of Northern Ireland say so.

    I.e - the same as it has been since... its entire existence?
    It is now written in an internationally binding agreement with the south and the parties involved in the conflict.
    Britain will no longer defend the percieved right of Northern Irish men and women to be British citizens, they will however continue to recognise and militarily defend the right of Falklanders to be British.
    Seeing anything here?
    anncoates wrote: »
    Highly Instructive that all the SF heads spend the whole thread saying they have nothing to do with the IRA and then when I say that the IRA achieved nothing, you think I'm talking about SF.
    Where did I or anybody else say that? You do know how the organisation was structured, why for instance the RUC could not arrest somebody for being a member of SF? Maybe some reading is required?
    awec wrote: »
    Yes, it's definitely the media causing these families grief and not the people who murdered their loved ones and didn't even have the decency to return a body. :rolleyes:

    Would you listen to yourself?
    And again, where did I say that the media caused their grief? 'Their grief is being exploited.....'
    Maybe you might start listening to me, rather than to what your biased self wants to listen to?


  • #683
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    A lost son is starting now where Michael McDowell talks about treaty and anti treaty brothers during the civil war.

    Of course it was ok if you were anti treaty and had no mandate back then, but during the troubles, not at all.


  • #684
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    No
    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    Polls for the G.B public say the same.
    They want rid of it.

    They've wanted rid of it for the last 100 years.

    At least until the 50s it wasn't running at a loss.

    However, the British government has made a commitment to maintain control of Northern Ireland as long as the citizens of Northern Ireland wish to remain British - which has a very large majority at the moment.

    I don't know why Happyman42 brought Falklands into the equation. Both the Falklands and Gibraltar were asked if they wanted independence or to change sovereignty and they both overwhelming declined.


  • #685
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    They've wanted rid of it for the last 100 years.

    At least until the 50s it wasn't running at a loss.

    However, the British government has made a commitment to maintain control of Northern Ireland as long as the citizens of Northern Ireland wish to remain British - which has a very large majority at the moment.

    I don't know why Happyman42 brought Falklands into the equation. Both the Falklands and Gibraltar were asked if they wanted independence or to change sovereignty and they both overwhelming declined.

    Their must of been a referendum I missed while I was in the toilet?


  • #686
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    No
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Of course it was ok if you were anti treaty and had no mandate back then, but during the troubles, not at all.

    How were the anti-treaty party, who fought against the Irish governemnt and generated a civil war, in any way okay? :mad:


  • #687
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    No
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Their must of been a referendum I missed while I was in the toilet?

    I didn't bother looking at these links, just took the first results off google.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_Constitution_Order_2006


  • #688
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    How were the anti-treaty party, who fought against the Irish governemnt and generated a civil war, in any way okay? :mad:

    Just saying I bet we don't see him calling his cousin a terrorist and murdering scumbag.


  • #689
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    No
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Their must of been a referendum I missed while I was in the toilet?

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013


    On a turnout of 92%, 99.8% voted overwhelmingly to remain a British territory, with only three votes against.[6] Had the islanders rejected the continuation of their current status, a second referendum on possible alternatives would have been held.[5] Brad Smith, the leader of the international observer group, announced that the referendum was free and fair and executed in accordance with international standards and international laws.[7]


  • #690
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I didn't bother looking at these links, just took the first results off google.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_Constitution_Order_2006

    I'm talking about northern ireland.


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  • #691
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    No
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Just saying I bet we don't see him calling his cousin a terrorist and murdering scumbag.

    How did his cousin fight? Did he target civilians or launch attacks which recklessly endangered the lives of civilians? If his cousin did, and he refrains from calling him such, then I suppose he would be a hypocrite.


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