Season 4, Episode 4 - Indifference [Spoilers]

wonderfullife · 05-11-2013 01:32AM

There's a clear dichotomy evident here between what's relevant to the characters and what's relevant to the viewers. It's the writers role to narrow that gap so that, broadly speaking, what matters to the viewers matters to the characters (and vice versa).

For example - the voice on the radio. None of the characters have even mentioned it since, why is that? We can all accept as viewers they have been going on medical runs and whacking Walkers (trying to stay alive) and, for them, that supercedes anything else. However, they've still had plenty of time for heart-to-hearts - whether about Michonne rambling off, Bobs drink problem, Tyreses anger issues.....

That's where the disconnect becomes evident. As a viewer i'm more than interested in character development and when done well, it can provide epic tv. Most people agree "Clear" is a standout example. However, as a viewer i'm also interested in the over-arching story - the overall scene. Learning more about the state of the world, the country, the virus itself, any attempted settlements, any military response etc.

The characters don't see to care one iota. If they did, surely they can spare 2 mins out of their busy, "deep meaningful" chats for someone to ask "so, hey what was the voice on the radio any ideas?!!!!".

The Rick-Carol scenes didn't quite work for me. They were well-acted, no doubt about that, but the actual dialogue was slightly disappointing. All season we've been witnessing Carols "journey" from newly-confident/self-assured to a cold, ruthless, survive at all costs person. She was effectively turning into the female Shane.

Despite that clear progression, and despite making a faithful promise to look after Lizzie and Mika, this new ruthless Carol left with a whimper. Surely it would be more in keeping with her character arc for her to try kill Rick and make it back to the prison to the girls?

I was also underwhelmed by what Rick said to her. There were very easy comparisons to make to underline what she did was wrong. All he had to say was "Glenn is now sick, would you murder him to "save" the group when you don't know for certain he's going to die??".

There was no emotional resonance in their scenes. Rick is a semi-broken man showing little emotion and Carol showed next to nothing. There was no depth or punch behind the words - it was like watching 2 people on antidepressants saying goodbye after 10 years of a loveless marriage. Drained of emotion.

Season 4 to date has 2 key problems - the focus on the illness and the role the new characters have played.

We don't really care for Patrick or Lizzie, Mika, Zach, even Bob - yet all 5 of those have been shoehorned into subplots. In the case of Patrick he was used point blank as a storytelling device on the illness.

More importantly, for this arc to pay off, they will really have to learn a game-changing truth from all this illness stuff. To devote 5 or more episodes to this arc and not learn something critically important regarding the illness would be a travesty. Even if there is a game-changing revelation (which, right now, i fail to see one) they're still devoting a lot of air time to it. Some of which smacks of filler, given the 16 episode season.

I know a lot of the above is a critical analysis of the episode and season. I do like (even love) the show. But it has to try harder to connect to what the viewers and characters care about. That dichotomy is far too wide for my liking right now. I don't care that Bob is an alco, Lizzie is a weird child, Patrick had glasses and is now dead.........the people i do care about are off farming (Rick), off sleeping (Maggie), off babysitting (insert Beth, Carl), off running-off (Michonne).

More to the point, none of them seem to care about the world right now. I know if i was one of them i'd be asking a shed-load of questions beyond trying to survive every day. All these council meetings and nobody seems to sit down and ask the simple stuff - i wonder how many people are left alive in the country? I wonder is there any central government left? Telecommunications ability? Militarised safe zones? etc. All they seem to care about are their cell blocks and they waste endless hours of the day talking without asking any important questions.

It surely wouldn't and couldn't harm the show for some of the characters to be asking some of these questions. And soon.

pixelburp · 05-11-2013 08:32AM

Hmmm, ok Walking Dead, I don't get you. I want to love you, but you make it so difficult. You finally get your sh*t together, it only takes 4 seasons, and just as you take a former non-entity from the cast and turn her into a fascinating, emotional and competent character, you have her drive off and out of the show.

Well, cheerio Carol; I was enjoying the hardened, pragmatic woman she became and I can't get my head around the 'why' of it all, unless it was simply a case of the actor wanting out & bar a death this was the simplest way of achieving that. Of course it's a convenient wedge in the dynamic of the prison, so doubtless the fallout will make for more drama.

While I thought the Rick / Carol material was pretty solid, the B-plot was pretty clunky. Bob's alcoholism was horrendously forced (pulling a gun on Daryl? Really?) as was the heart to heart between the two men earlier. Tyresse will probably put the whole group in jeopardy at the rate he's going too.

One thing - I presume I'm not the only one who thinks that creepy-girl-whose-name-I-forget is the one who was feeding the walkers? She's clearly a few sandwiches short of a picnic and it's easy to imagine how her love/empathy for the walkers will cause severe problems for everyone.

Jason Todd · 05-11-2013 10:48AM

Hope Carol comes back. Hate to see any of the original cast go, but really enjoyed her character arc.

Once we saw the tattoo on the girls leg you just knew her leg would feature again. More than likely in a horrible way. Same with Lizzie's bracelet.

Do ye think the two survivors didn't pass Rick's test for being brought to the prison and Carol wanted to overrule him anyway so they'd help look for medication?

Hyzepher · 05-11-2013 11:24AM

For me Carol is the only one facing up to reality and not just with Lizzie etc. but the way she deals with death and the threat of death. Her reaction to the young couple's demise seemed to push Rick past the point of no return.

Everyone seems to be dealing with the reality around them but Rick is still stuck in the old way of thinking. Something that is likely to put the group at risk at some point - especially without Carol to intervene

Paddy Cow · 05-11-2013 11:38AM

Hyzepher wrote: »

For me Carol is the only one facing up to reality and not just with Lizzie etc. but the way she deals with death and the threat of death. Her reaction to the young couple's demise seemed to push Rick past the point of no return.

Everyone seems to be dealing with the reality around them but Rick is still stuck in the old way of thinking. Something that is likely to put the group at risk at some point - especially without Carol to intervene

Although she's not very prominent, I think Beth has also come on in leaps and bounds. Considering at one point she wanted to commit suicide because she thought it was all so pointless, she now has a stoic resolution about her and it was her being strong for Maggie. If something happened to Judith though, I think it would set her back to a bad place.

Yakuza · 05-11-2013 11:45AM

Did anyone else spot the petrol station's price digits being re-arranged into "Hell"? (Or did I just imagine it?

)

I bet Carol will be back, I do think it's a shame to lose her when she's completely transformed from the doorstep/victim we met in Season 1.

Why would Rick give some randomer his watch? That annoyed me a bit, I have to admit.

Lastly, I'd have thought that a zombie apocalypse would be a good cure for raging alcoholism - you either succumb to it early or get cured of it, but I didn't think you could have many high-functioning alco's in the Walking Dead universe!

5starpool · 05-11-2013 11:48AM

While I still enjoy the show, I get some of the criticism as well. After years/months of near isolation in a small group, a crackly radio signal is something that should not just be barely mentioned, and it's not like they would have just forgot that. Surely that would have been one of the first things they checked for again once they got back into a car?

The inconsistency of the virus is a bit annoying as well, although we have actually only seen it kill a couple of people I think? The first kid and the fella that locked himself into his cell.

On the Carol thing that seems like a weird way to do things, and will lead to ructions within the group, although of his options to deal with it, none were good. I am guessing that he will tell the group that she was munched and that there will be repercussions later when we meet her again.

listermint · 05-11-2013 12:20PM

gavmcg92 wrote: »

One aspect of the episode that I didn't like was the obvious product placements from hyundai. They're not even trying to hide it any more. Couldn't help but notice that the only modern car around was the one that they were using... and of course it was a hyundai. The rest were all rust buckets.

Disagree, The People carrier they used was a chrysler and not exactly a rust bucket. Also the lads car that got stuck on the zombies last week was a Dodge Charger.

You seem to be confusing hyundai with the one hyundai Jeep that theyve always had.

wonderfullife · 05-11-2013 12:27PM

Hyzepher wrote: »

For me Carol is the only one facing up to reality and not just with Lizzie etc. but the way she deals with death and the threat of death. Her reaction to the young couple's demise seemed to push Rick past the point of no return.

Everyone seems to be dealing with the reality around them but Rick is still stuck in the old way of thinking. Something that is likely to put the group at risk at some point - especially without Carol to intervene

The old way of thinking? As in it's wrong to murder people who have flu symptoms when you're not a doctor and have no clue whether they will live/die and were in isolation anyway?

Carol was turning into a loose canon. For all of Ricks issues it was reassuring to see he retains a sense of right and wrong.

Jason Todd · 05-11-2013 01:49PM

Are we to assume that the walkers inside the veterinary college were up-to-recently still alive, because a) there was a relatively undisturbed little bed with books and booze hidden behind a desk and b) they are all victims of this new strain of 'flu' (blood coming from the eyes) and weren't as decomposed as the ones in the car garage for example.

Also, if they did die from the new strain, would they not have tried to use all the medicine right under their noses?

I hate nit-picking as I love the show, but that seems strange to me.

wes · 05-11-2013 01:57PM

Jason Todd wrote: »

Also, if they did die from the new strain, would they not have tried to use all the medicine right under their noses?

Maybe they did, and used the wrong stuff or used the right stuff incorrectly, as they didn't have anyone with medical training on hand.

P.Walnuts · 05-11-2013 02:11PM

It's gotten to the stage where I really want to like the show, but its all becoming a bit meh.

I think it boils down to if you liek the characters then you will stick with it and enjoy the show. I just really can't connect with any of the characters, everyone is just way to serious and preachy, there is no escape from the constant soul searching and moralising that goes on in each episode.

To make a fairly crude comparison, Lost ( I was a causal viewer at best) had several characters who would break the mould and provide humour, sarcasm etc people like Hurley or Sawyer and balance the pragmatism of Jack, TWD doesn't have that. It's an entire cast of Jacks and that just isn't interesting to me.

Cork boy 55 · 05-11-2013 04:22PM

We already know the state of the outside world from episode TS-19 no contact to the CDC comms network in months, last contact France, almost complete government/military collapse, An extinction event in the Doctors words

There are nothing discussing the radio transmission because they have a critical mission on hand anyway the equipment required to generate a FM signal can fit in a suitcase and can be powered from car battery. Its not indicator of civilization somewhere
just someone somewhere has an FM transmitter.
The prison group or the governor could setup a radio station if they wanted to do.

We never saw or heard of the helicopter Rick saw in Atlanta either
(the helo the Governor found was a different model)
Coincidentally that helo also served as a distraction to lead Rick into a herd(IIRC)

I would mind not a briefing where they saw how much stuff they have and what they have been doing the last few months.

05-11-2013 04:59PM

I think it's fair to assume that Carol isn't leaving the show altogether.

The Gov signed on for a second season even though it was only meant to be for the one.
We're now 4 episodes in and he still hasn't figured.
I think the logical assumption is that Carol will bump into him and that will be his reintroduction as he can't really emerge back in alone or with the group seeing how things ended.
It's not often a main character has just left the group, so I think her departure is signalling his return.

I don't read anything about plot lines, that's just my guess but it seems the most logical assumption with his lack of appearance thus far.

alastair · 05-11-2013 07:00PM

listermint wrote: »

You seem to be confusing hyundai with the one hyundai Jeep that theyve always had.

...that's managed to remain nice and clean, and unblemished (bar a bit of dust) ever since they picked it up. Strange that.

Mind you - the grass on the road verges everywhere are also remarkably well trimmed for a post-apocalyptic scenario.

Lovely Bloke · 05-11-2013 07:11PM

What IS Rick's test?

PhiloCypher · 05-11-2013 07:26PM

He asks 3 questions, I think they are something along the lines of 1)how many walkers have you killed 2)how many humans 3) why

Mr.Prodston · 05-11-2013 07:26PM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

What IS Rick's test?

The 3 questions he asked Tayto in the first episode

username123 · 05-11-2013 09:32PM

I'm totally shocked. I think Rick was wrong to banish Carol. She did what she did for the greater good, her intentions were in the right place.

Paddy Cow · 05-11-2013 10:37PM

username123 wrote: »

I'm totally shocked. I think Rick was wrong to banish Carol. She did what she did for the greater good, her intentions were in the right place.

He should look closer to home, at his son who clearly is itching to kill for the sake of it. Right little psycho he's going to turn into.

wonderfullife · 05-11-2013 11:05PM

username123 wrote: »

I'm totally shocked. I think Rick was wrong to banish Carol. She did what she did for the greater good, her intentions were in the right place.

What? You cant go around killing people for having a cold!! There was absolutely no definitive proof to Carol that a) they would have died or b) would have infected others.

Anyway is there not an irony in her killing them which in itself puts her at risk of contracting the illness and spreading it?

None of her actions should/could be condoned. Rick couldn't allow someone back with that mentality, that anyone is expendable for the greater good.

B.A._Baracus · 05-11-2013 11:24PM

Thought this episode was meh. Wasnt bad, but wasnt great either.

The Walking Dead is a very good show it's just that, well, how can I put it into words .... It certainly doesn't drag but it can 'stretch' things. Like you just want to see what happens next but hold on, the next episode is gonna slow down the tempo.

I know you could say it's slowly building things up for a better pay off. I get that. But to quote Abe Simpson "Just eat the damn orange!" :P

Paddy Cow · 06-11-2013 01:23AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

What? You cant go around killing people for having a cold!! There was absolutely no definitive proof to Carol that a) they would have died or b) would have infected others.

Anyway is there not an irony in her killing them which in itself puts her at risk of contracting the illness and spreading it?

None of her actions should/could be condoned. Rick couldn't allow someone back with that mentality, that anyone is expendable for the greater good.

They had 30 days without incident and then Millhouse got sick, died very quickly and turned. At that stage it was pointless trying to separate "at risk" people as they were all obviously at risk.

The situation now they have is a joke. Loads of sick people at various stages of their illness simply allowed to wander around the cell block. I said that was asking for trouble and going by clips for next weeks show (spoiler tagged if you don't want to know)

It looks like they try to get sick people into their cells but some have either died and/or turned

Rick is a weak, indecisive leader who makes poor decisions. While the others were organising council meetings to discuss how to handle the situation, Rick was out wrestling with whether he wanted to be a farmer or put on his gun again.

Carol is gone and Tyrese and Ben? (the alcho) are looking like they are also gonna be liabilities. Maggie is a mess over Glynn and her father. The only two strong characters left are Daryl and Michonne. If when the sh!t hits the fan, the prison is gonna collapse and unless Rick has one of his miraculous personality changes, there are gonna be a lot of dead people.

I have a feeling they will be forced to leave the prison a much smaller group and will end up seeking refugee in someplace that Carol is holding up in. How ironic would it be if Rick had to answer three questions for Carol before she deemed him worthy of staying with her :pac:

Lovely Bloke · 06-11-2013 08:04AM

I suppose my question was really - what are the answers to Rick's Test that will let you pass?

username123 · 06-11-2013 08:57AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

What? You cant go around killing people for having a cold!! There was absolutely no definitive proof to Carol that a) they would have died or b) would have infected others.

Anyway is there not an irony in her killing them which in itself puts her at risk of contracting the illness and spreading it?

None of her actions should/could be condoned. Rick couldn't allow someone back with that mentality, that anyone is expendable for the greater good.

They were drowning in their own blood, they didn't just have a cold. It was a mercy killing.

Rick has committed cold blooded murder himself so he has no business judging the actions of others. He has committed plenty of violent acts for the greater good. Banishing Carol is effectively sentencing her to death.

This is post apocalypse, the old rules don't apply.

Kiith · 06-11-2013 01:11PM

Thought it was a great episode myself. Slow enough, but good character developments.

As for Carol...stabbing sick people in the back of the head, when you can't be sure they will die or infect others has to be a step too far. I get why she thought it had to be done, but no one else agreed with it being necessary (even Darryl, from the comment he made over the bodies).

Brozy · 06-11-2013 01:17PM

I can definitely understand see where people are coming from when complaining about the slower episodes. Having read the comics, you could be waiting a month for the next issue and it will be all character building and no action. I wait till the end of year and buy the hardback with all the issues and you can flick through the slower issues quickly. I love the show too much to wait till the end of the season though.

As for this episode, while not brilliant, I think it sets the stage nicely for the coming episodes. While the scenes with group in the veterinary clinic were forgettable, Carol and Ricks scenes were good.

I don't buy the whole Bob is an alcoholic thing, not a chance he'd would of lasted this long. Interesting to see how Daryl has progressed from fully blown redneck (maybe not as bad as Merle though) to driving around with 3 African-Americans and seems to be flirting with Michonne, poor Merle woudln't be happy with him.

As for Rick banishing Carol, I thought she would of put up more of a fight, while it was a bit rich of Rick. Although, he did say Tyresse would kill her as soon as he found out so maybe he was doing it for her own good. I'm looking forward to how Rick breaks the news to the others.

The three obvious scenarios as I see it are a) Tell the truth, he banished her for killing Karen and Dave b) Say she got killed out on the road c) They got split up and Rick couldn't find her

If Rick goes with a) Most likely option and will provide some interesting some potential confrontations. Group -vs- Rick: Not his decision to make, should of went to council. Tyresse -vs- Rick: Rick was supposed to bring the killer to Tyresse. Daryl -vs- Rick: He was close to Carol but may be more interested in Michonne now.

If Rick goes with b) A possibility but I think Rick is too honest. It would also land him in it when they eventually cross paths again.

If Rick goes with c) Rick could avoid any serious questioning but this option is highly unlikely imo. The group would want to go look for her (especially Daryl) and I think we all had enough of that in the Second Season. Also Rick would know that such a search would be dangerous, time consuming and he wouldn't want to find her anyway.

I didn't like how forced and obvious they made it to show us that girl's tattoo on her leg, so we would recognise her later from her amazingly-cleanly severed leg.

Any chance Carol meets up with Governor's group? Or a group that the Governor has joined.

wonderfullife · 06-11-2013 03:04PM

username123 wrote: »

They were drowning in their own blood, they didn't just have a cold. It was a mercy killing.

Rick has committed cold blooded murder himself so he has no business judging the actions of others. He has committed plenty of violent acts for the greater good. Banishing Carol is effectively sentencing her to death.

This is post apocalypse, the old rules don't apply.

Surely that's an underlying theme throughout the show? The struggle to retain a sense of humanity in this changing world. Rick, to my knowledge, hasn't committed cold blooded murder of a member of his group for the greater good. There's a difference between self-defence and murder.

Anyway, they weren't drowning in their own blood. They were coughing up blood. Which is quite nasty, i've been there myself having had pleurisy in the past. Point is Carol had no way of knowing if they'd get better (or die) or if killing them would halt the spread of the infection. She arbitrarily decided to kill 2 innocent people and that can't be allowed.

username123 · 06-11-2013 03:22PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Surely that's an underlying theme throughout the show? The struggle to retain a sense of humanity in this changing world. Rick, to my knowledge, hasn't committed cold blooded murder of a member of his group for the greater good. There's a difference between self-defence and murder.

Anyway, they weren't drowning in their own blood. They were coughing up blood. Which is quite nasty, i've been there myself having had pleurisy in the past. Point is Carol had no way of knowing if they'd get better (or die) or if killing them would halt the spread of the infection. She arbitrarily decided to kill 2 innocent people and that can't be allowed.

I disagree. Rick has killed Shane - he could have wounded him.

I was quoting Carol - she said they were drowning in their own blood, I have no idea what was happening or if they could have survived but I do know that she was trying to do the best she could - her motive was noble. She did not think "I am going to kill 2 innocent people". At worst it was manslaughter in pre-apocalypse terms.

I dont agree with what she did either but I dont believe she should have been banished for it. Merle was allowed into the group despite his many cold blooded actions (attempted murder of Glenn with a zombie included) simply because he was Daryls brother and a useful man to have onside. If Merle was allowed to stay then Carol should be allowed to stay.

wonderfullife · 06-11-2013 03:48PM

username123 wrote: »

I disagree. Rick has killed Shane - he could have wounded him.

I was quoting Carol - she said they were drowning in their own blood, I have no idea what was happening or if they could have survived but I do know that she was trying to do the best she could - her motive was noble. She did not think "I am going to kill 2 innocent people". At worst it was manslaughter in pre-apocalypse terms.

I dont agree with what she did either but I dont believe she should have been banished for it. Merle was allowed into the group despite his many cold blooded actions (attempted murder of Glenn with a zombie included) simply because he was Daryls brother and a useful man to have onside. If Merle was allowed to stay then Carol should be allowed to stay.

thank god you are not a judge!

It was pre-meditated murder in pre-apocalypse terms!! she decided to kill 2 people, then did it.

Anyway, Rick knows how Tyrese would react if/when he finds out she did it, so it's better she's on her own for now. She'll be seen again no doubt about it but is no loss to the group. There is no point having a council if one person arbitrarily does her own thing.

Season 4, Episode 4 - Indifference [Spoilers]

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