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Garda found guilty of sexually assaulting and sexually harassing female colleagues

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    While we are on the topic whatever happened in PWC with the lads who were circulating e mails rating the new female staff?
    Afair most of those involved were fired.

    The exact same thing happened in another big 4 firm at the same time (though it wasn't as widely reported). The guys who started the email chain were fired and the rest were told that they would have to find employment elsewhere at the end of their contracts.

    Big companies take this stuff pretty seriously now because of the litigation aspect and the fact that HR departments are well separated from the others.

    In smaller companies where the HR director is best mates with the rest of the management team, fear of reporting is still a huge problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    pharmaton wrote: »
    It does but I don't even know from which direction. Lets not forget the Garda in question was found guilty on some specific charges. I would genuinely be concerned though if sexual harassment was that systemic that anyone on the receiving end of it would feel compelled to play along less they be consigned to the non team player rubbish dump.
    tbh I'd probably have been a bit more imaginative with my Christmas present.

    I very honestly believe that there is more to this. I think that things were running along and then something external hit the fan that caused all of this to be revisited.

    Buying such a suggestive toy for the apparent perpetrator whose actions were so apparently vile does not ring true for the allegations made.
    And we have to accept that that present was bought as the fact was not denied in court
    Hopefully we will hear the full story soon enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    The best thing about cases like this resulting in convictions is that it might give other gardai in similar situations the courage to come forward. I suspect the fear of colleagues closing ranks in defence of their own makes it very daunting for people to speak out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,234 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Current serving members as at September 2013
    Commissioner: 1
    Deputy Commissioner: 1
    Assistant Commissioner: 8
    Chief Superintendent: 44
    Superintendent: 151
    Inspector: 273
    Sergeant: 1,874
    Garda: 10,807
    Total: 13,159

    Considering the size of the force, two cases is hardly shocking and there are dickheads in all walks of life to be fair. Don't really get ya OP, are you disgusted by sexual harassment in the workplace or are you taking a pop at all gardai?

    It's a national pastime in this country. I can imagine the number of people wringing their hands in glee at this story and dreaming up some story about an encounter they had with a guard to throw into the mix when they discuss it with others.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,743 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    What is it about Letterkenny and bullying cases, remember that poor woman who was almost bullied to death in Letterkenny General Hospital a few years back by horrible co workers. When she complained the treatment got even worse. Some right scumbags around.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,234 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    What is it about Letterkenny and bullying cases, remember that poor woman who was almost bullied to death in Letterkenny General Hospital a few years back by horrible co workers. When she complained the treatment got even worse. Some right scumbags around.

    The court case was held in letterkenny. Neither the defendant or his colleagues were stationed in Letterkenny. Get your facts right before jumping to stupid conclusions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Did she buy them as a kris kringle and it ended up being him maybe

    and then she selected this present for him. I never heard of kris kringle where you just buy a present then find out who it is for. You get a name and select a present


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    What is it about Letterkenny and bullying cases, remember that poor woman who was almost bullied to death in Letterkenny General Hospital a few years back by horrible co workers. When she complained the treatment got even worse. Some right scumbags around.
    What sticks in my mind is the bullying that certain Gardai and members of the public in Donegal were subjected to when mid to high ranking officers were trying to make wrong and fabricated charges stick.
    In particular the treatment meeted out to the female Garda who was not prepared to go along with a conspiracy. Her house was raided ans she was subjected to other indignities; apparently because she choose to take the truthful road.
    I would imagine that if the charges that stuck come back before the courts the defence will be abandoning the softly, softly approach.
    Just my belief.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Did she buy them as a kris kringle and it ended up being him maybe
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    and then she selected this present for him. I never heard of kris kringle where you just buy a present then find out who it is for. You get a name and select a present
    that's how I believe kris kringle works anyway, you put names into a hat and randomly select someone to gift. Unless it was a new version of the game where you go buy a gift blindly not knowing who it is for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Did she buy them as a kris kringle and it ended up being him maybe

    Well yeah, it was Secret Santa, but anytime I've participated in one, I've known who I was buying for. If I was her, and got him, that wouldn't be what I get for him!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    and then she selected this present for him. I never heard of kris kringle where you just buy a present then find out who it is for. You get a name and select a present

    Exactly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    But in the article, it says that the boxers were bought a few weeks after some of the alleged incidents took place. That's the weird bit for me.
    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    But....correct me if I am wrong, and maybe I am as I just jumped on to a moving bus, but my understanding is that the alleged victim bought this suggestive toy for the alleged offender some weeks after the alleged assault.
    Now the question to be asked here is what changed her mind, or perhaps who changed her mind in thelong term.
    There's no "alleged incident" or 'alleged offender" about it. The Garda Sergeant was found to be guilty.

    The Sergeant says that one of the victims bought him novelty boxers.

    First, that is not a sexual thing to do. Admittedly, it is not typically the behaviour of someone who feels sexually harassed.

    And on that point, it is worth noting that the boxers were bought, by one victim, merely "after some of the incidents".

    Some of the incidents: we do not know whether these incidents involved the Garda in question, nor of what degree of seriousness they were. It may be that the Garda thought that if she gave as good as she got, the Sergeant would lay off.

    Or, it may be simply that these early incidents were not, taken alone, of a sufficient magnitude of seriousness for her to believe they necessitated a more serious response. It can be that the cumulative effect of someone's behaviour can be more harmful than early, niggling, aspects of the same behaviour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Exactly.
    Do we know if she was one of the victims he was convicted of assaulting/harassing?
    Poster seem to forget that there were at least three women who made complaints.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    There's no "alleged incident" or 'alleged offender" about it. The Garda Sergeant was found to be guilty.

    The Sergeant says that one of the victims bought him novelty boxers.

    First, that is not a sexual thing to do. Admittedly, it is not typically the behaviour of someone who feels sexually harassed.

    And on that point, it is worth noting that the boxers were bought, by one victim, merely "after some of the incidents".

    Some of the incidents: we do not know whether these incidents involved the Garda in question, nor of what degree of seriousness they were. It may be that the Garda thought that if she gave as good as she got, the Sergeant would lay off.

    Or, it may be simply that these early incidents were not, taken alone, of a sufficient magnitude of seriousness for her to believe they necessitated a more serious response. It can be that the cumulative effect of someone's behaviour can be more harmful than early, niggling, aspects of the same behaviour.
    Of course there was an alleged incident(s) and there was an alleged offender and there was a number of accusers.
    Those are matters of fact-forgive me but sometimes I despair:rolleyes:

    The fact that the court found, on the weight of evidence presented to it, that a small majority of the allegations were proven does not mean that there were no allegations, and for the purpose of this thread discussion we are discussing a continious action in the past.

    It is disturbing the the prosecution failed to get a prosecution on 70% of the charges presented to the court.

    Is this because they failed to prepare their case properly, and that should be very disturbing for the alleged victims.
    Or is it because they accelerated a "bit of banter and horse play" out of proportion and put the extra failed 70% of charges against the accused in the hope that some will stick. And that is a bad situation for the accused.

    Either way its a bad situation for the prosecution and when you couple that with the fact that the Judge not only felt obliged to throw I one of the charges out but he felt that he had to comment on the fact that everybody in a workplace would also be sublect to being so charged for workplace banter if he was to allow the charge to proceed

    And when you put that with the fact that one of the accusers did, at a time at which she later alleged she was the victim of harassment and or sexual assault bought for and presented to the person she alleged was the perpetrator of such acts, a present of a sexually suggestive santa type toy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    timmy4u2 wrote: »

    And when you put that with the fact that one of the accusers did, at a time at which she later alleged she was the victim of harassment and or sexual assault bought for and presented to the person she alleged was the perpetrator of such acts, a present of a sexually suggestive santa type toy.

    Blame the victim, typical Irish 1950's type response.
    Disgusting!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    Blame the victim, typical Irish 1950's type response.
    Disgusting!

    You took that sentence out of context, please have the decency to quote the whole post.
    I think it was Shakespear who wrote
    "The devil shall quote scripture for his purpose"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    Of course there was an alleged incident(s) and there was an alleged offender and there was a number of accusers.
    Those are matters of fact-forgive me but sometimes I despair:rolleyes:

    The fact that the court found, on the weight of evidence presented to it, that a small majority of the allegations were proven does not mean that there were no allegations, and for the purpose of this thread discussion we are discussing a continious action in the past.

    It is disturbing the the prosecution failed to get a prosecution on 70% of the charges presented to the court.

    Is this because they failed to prepare their case properly, and that should be very disturbing for the alleged victims.
    Or is it because they accelerated a "bit of banter and horse play" out of proportion and put the extra failed 70% of charges against the accused in the hope that some will stick. And that is a bad situation for the accused.

    Either way its a bad situation for the prosecution and when you couple that with the fact that the Judge not only felt obliged to throw I one of the charges out but he felt that he had to comment on the fact that everybody in a workplace would also be sublect to being so charged for workplace banter if he was to allow the charge to proceed


    And when you put that with the fact that one of the accusers did, at a time at which she later alleged she was the victim of harassment and or sexual assault bought for and presented to the person she alleged was the perpetrator of such acts, a present of a sexually suggestive santa type toy.
    abc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    You took that sentence out of context, please have the decency to quote the whole post.
    I think it was Shakespear who wrote
    "The devil shall quote scripture for his purpose"

    Wrong, that quote is Biblical not Shakespearean.
    You gave the sentence all the context it needed when you posted it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    timmy4u2 wrote: »

    And when you put that with the fact that one of the accusers did, at a time at which she later alleged she was the victim of harassment and or sexual assault bought for and presented to the person she alleged was the perpetrator of such acts, a present of a sexually suggestive santa type toy.

    Oh well all three deserved everything got then , didn't they!:rolleyes:

    BTW a pair of Santa Boxers is hardly a sexually suggestive toy.
    Well not to most open minded 21st Irish men and women anyway!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    Wrong, that quote is Biblical not Shakespearean.
    You gave the sentence all the context it needed when you posted it.
    My goodness you are wrong again. It was Shakespear in The Merchant of Venice.
    And the accused was not a Sergeant either
    And to your latest post.....I ...think that you should have a read of what the toy really was


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    My goodness you are wrong again. It was Shakespear in The Merchant of Venice.
    And the accused was not a Sergeant either

    You are correct on the phrase origin, where did I describe the convicted sexual predator as a sergeant?
    I couldn't give a fcuk what the toy was, all that matters is that another dangerous sexual predator has been convicted.
    The country and the AGS are safer because of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    I'm sure the people of Donegal would like to know where this guy is stationed? None of the papers mentioned it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    woodoo wrote: »
    I'm sure the people of Donegal would like to know where this guy is stationed? None of the papers mentioned it.

    And if he was ever involved in the investigation of a sexual assault/ rape case, by the sound of him he would have bough the suspect a pint and swapped notes!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    Of course there was an alleged incident(s) and there was an alleged offender and there was a number of accusers.
    Those are matters of fact
    No they are not. You misunderstand.

    The court has come to a decision on all aspects of the prosecution. They are all decided, so there is simply no more "alleged" about the incidents, and there can be no more "alleged" in respect of the offender, whatever the outcome.
    It is disturbing the the prosecution failed to get a prosecution on 70% of the charges presented to the court.

    Is this because they failed to prepare their case properly, and that should be very disturbing for the alleged victims.
    Or is it because they accelerated a "bit of banter and horse play" out of proportion and put the extra failed 70% of charges against the accused in the hope that some will stick. And that is a bad situation for the accused.
    The criminal burden of proof is difficult to overcome, in almost any situation. The fact that it has been overcome, and yet you are defending the Sergeant, says more about you than anything else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    My last post tonight because I made a resolution not to be on these boards at weekends around pub closing times for the same reasons that I would stay off the roads also.
    I am not defending anyone. I am not happy with the prosecution and I believe that their methods have failed everyone in the case, the female accusers and the accused.
    That should be clear.
    And I told you sir humphrey already not to refer to him as a Sergeant as he is not. Nite.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    My last post tonight because I made a resolution not to be on these boards at weekends around pub closing times for the same reasons that I would stay off the roads also.
    I am not defending anyone. I am not happy with the prosecution and I believe that their methods have failed everyone in the case, the female accusers and the accused.
    That should be clear.
    And I told you sir humphrey already not to refer to him as a Sergeant as he is not. Nite.

    He is the convicted, not the accused, and they are the victims not the accusers.
    And I would love you to show where I called this convicted pervert sergeant, you cant because I didn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    BTW a pair of Santa Boxers is hardly a sexually suggestive toy.
    Red silk boxers - it really is. I'm certainly not a victim-blamer or suspicious of any woman who makes allegations of sexual harassment (as has become fashionable) but that element of the story is strange, not point in denying it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    Red silk boxers - it really is. I'm certainly not a victim-blamer or suspicious of any woman who makes allegations of sexual harassment (as has become fashionable) but that element of the story is strange, not point in denying it.

    It is strange from the point of view of the actions of the prosecution, when you take the whole prosecution into consideration, that they would put charges before the court that were so unprosecutiable that the judge had to intervene, with the comments he added and all but 70% of the other charges failed to get by the jury.
    It is very wrong to put unprosecutiable charges against a citizen because, apart from the moral and legal implications this leads to suspicion of the prosecution case and invites gossip and conjecture.

    This does not help the case for the accuser nor does it help the case of the accused.......and it askes the question if this was not a jury case would those other charges have been put before the court.
    I think that they would not.
    And then you ask the question why this was done. Was it incompetence on behalf of the prosecution or was it in order to get some to stick, a la mud slinging or to sow seeds in the minds of the jury that should not be sown.
    Either way the victim will be the accuser or the accused and the might of the state will go unchecked


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    He is the convicted, not the accused, and they are the victims not the accusers.
    And I would love you to show where I called this convicted pervert sergeant, you cant because I didn't.

    Still waiting on an answer Timmy.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    Gardai are humans too


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