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Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

1…4142444647…66

Comments

  • #1292
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    opiniated wrote: »

    Based on the (false) information given by the Hospital, the Gardaí felt they had grounds to act as they did.

    So why is everyone criticizing the Gardaí, and ignoring the clerical error by the hospital?.


    There was no clerical error. There was an insufficiently thorough check by the gardai.


  • #1293
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    bbam wrote: »
    When you say look into all the facts first what do you mean??

    Ask for adoption certs or passports? Wasnt that done, didnt they ask for birth certs?.
    Contact the HSE to confirm the adoption? Didnt the guards bring in the HSE officers?
    I'm certain that adoptive parents could easily put their hands on adoption certs at home if they didnt already have them in their posession. these parents couldn't provide documentation to clear the suspicion that was raised to the guards, between the guards and HSE they took drastic action in an effore to protect the children.. I don't like the way this has turned out, but I equally can't see what else could have been done


    You are right about one thing. The Guards took drastic action.

    "but I equally can't see what else could have been done"

    Really?

    The guards couldnt have run a DNA check before taking a child away from its parents?

    The HSE couldnt have invited the parents to accompany the child?

    The precedent here is absolutely appalling......the Guards can just show up and swipe your child because it doesnt look like you.

    The guards had no choice? give me a break.


  • #1294
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...but rarely, and even rarer still on the basis of an initial visit, afaik. This reeks of a kneejerk reaction, linked to the greek incident.
    It wouldnt surprise me if there was some influence from the previous recent case..

    But remember that much of our law and legal arguments are based on legal precedence, the "on the ground experience" that makes guards experienced is based on previous cases they have been involved in...
    This is a terrible case, but from what I've read I don't see a need to demonise anyone..


  • #1295
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bbam wrote: »
    It wouldnt surprise me if there was some influence from the previous recent case..

    But remember that much of our law and legal arguments are based on legal precedence, the "on the ground experience" that makes guards experienced is based on previous cases they have been involved in...
    This is a terrible case, but from what I've read I don't see a need to demonise anyone..


    "demonise" requires a certain malignant evil to be present, as opposed to the fecking stupidity on display here.


  • #1296
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,028 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Balaclava1991 wrote: »

    If anyone had a suspicion that a kid was abducted and the parents could not prove they were the parents of the kid, the kid would be taken off them.

    That's what the Gardaí would do in all cases.

    There is no shadow of doubt about that.

    Sweet, I'll just start calling the police from anonymous mobile numbers. all I have to do is make any accusation and they'll automatically arrest people or take their children away.


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  • #1297
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Balaclava1991 wrote: »
    Grayson wrote: »

    If anyone had a suspicion that a kid was abducted and the parents could not prove they were the parents of the kid, the kid would be taken off them.

    That's what the Gardaí would do in all cases.

    There is no shadow of doubt about that.

    These racism accusations are the usual drivel that are spouted by the rent a crowd ultra left mob who turn up at every lunatic protest.

    The same shower are forever protesting for the rights of Al-Qaeda murderers held in Gitmo to be released so they can kill again, the rights of dissident Republicans to be let out so they can launch another Omagh attack, the rights of Hamas to rocket Jews in Israel without being killed by IDF helicopter gunships, the right of the Taliban to enslave the people of Afghanistan in peace. When Saddam Hussein was executed they held a protest at the supposed murder of a tyrant to killed hundreds of people.

    There's this mad old guy with a beard who always turns up outside Government Buildings hail rain or shine with a piece of cardboard giving out about the CIA flying hog tied captured terrorists through Shannon.

    The differences between loons like this and the slick well dressed and articulate ultra left NGO spokespersons who bang on about what a fascist police force the Gardaí are is the money they get donors who had a political agenda against this country.

    These fifth columnists are a menace.

    How do you make that out?

    Defend that statement please.

    So if I go to my local garda station and say, well i think little Isobel Delaney down the road doesnt look much like her parents, I've a feeling they just robbed her somewhere......and they knock on Isobel's parents door and say, ok prove she's your kid, show us her birth certificate......that if they couldnt produce it there and then that the Gardai would take Isobel away? Not a snowballs chance in hell pal would they take her, and you know that full well.


  • #1298
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    There was no trouble in finding the documents, just the guards did not believe they were real - turns out they were...

    What is the child had gone missing while in the care of the HSE - like a lot seem to do - what then?

    If you think the child has been abducted why not arrest the parents?

    That differs from what I've heard.

    The parents couldn't produce a birth cert at the time (which in itself is not unreasonable), but also there was trouble with the child's name and DoB records at the registry office which the Gardai contacted. The details were different to those clamed by the parents. The Coombe also had no record of the child being born there to corroborate the parents side of the story.

    The Gardai decided to place the child in temporary care acting under the Child Care Act, while the issue was sorted.

    The docs were produced later and the records confirmed along with the DNA evidence and the child returned...leaving the Gardai with egg on their faces.


  • #1299
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    You are right about one thing. The Guards took drastic action.

    "but I equally can't see what else could have been done"

    Really?

    The guards couldnt have run a DNA check before taking a child away from its parents? but given the resources at hand it may have allowed time for the family/child to disappear

    The HSE couldnt have invited the parents to accompany the child? Could they? Its a great idea and I'd support it, but is there a facility there at their disposal to be used?

    The precedent here is absolutely appalling......the Guards can just show up and swipe your child because it doesnt look like you. Again as far as I've seen the guards acted on a report as they should, the parents were unable to provide documentation to satisfy the HSE and guards.

    Prople are making it sound like the guards finished their tea break and decided "I know what, lets go and take a kid from some foriegn family"
    FFS !


  • #1300
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Tony EH wrote: »
    That differs from what I've heard.

    The parents could produce a birth cert at the time (which in itself is not unreasonable), but also there was trouble with the child's name and DoB records at the registry office which the Gardai contacted. The details were different to those clamed by the parents. The Coombe also had no record of the child being born there to corroborate the parents side of the story.

    The Gardai decided to place the child in temporary care acting under the Child Care Act, while the issue was sorted.

    The docs were produced later and the records confirmed along with the DNA evidence and the child returned...leaving the Gardai with egg on their faces.

    Guilty until proven innocent


  • #1301
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Balaclava1991 wrote: »
    Grayson wrote: »

    If anyone had a suspicion that a kid was abducted and the parents could not prove they were the parents of the kid, the kid would be taken off them.

    That's what the Gardaí would do in all cases.

    There is no shadow of doubt about that.

    These racism accusations are the usual drivel that are spouted by the rent a crowd ultra left mob who turn up at every lunatic protest.

    The same shower are forever protesting for the rights of Al-Qaeda murderers held in Gitmo to be released so they can kill again, the rights of dissident Republicans to be let out so they can launch another Omagh attack, the rights of Hamas to rocket Jews in Israel without being killed by IDF helicopter gunships, the right of the Taliban to enslave the people of Afghanistan in peace. When Saddam Hussein was executed they held a protest at the supposed murder of a tyrant to killed hundreds of people.

    There's this mad old guy with a beard who always turns up outside Government Buildings hail rain or shine with a piece of cardboard giving out about the CIA flying hog tied captured terrorists through Shannon.

    The differences between loons like this and the slick well dressed and articulate ultra left NGO spokespersons who bang on about what a fascist police force the Gardaí are is the money they get donors who had a political agenda against this country.

    These fifth columnists are a menace.

    Wot larks, Pip :D


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  • #1302
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bbam wrote: »
    Prople are making it sound like the guards finished their tea break and decided "I know what, lets go and take a kid from some foriegn family"
    FFS !


    ...it was asked earlier whether or not the gardai on the scene were under pressure to act from higher up the food chain.


  • #1303
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    old hippy wrote: »

    Wot larks, Pip :D

    Maybe we'll get a beret and mirror shades?


  • #1304
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is a medium to be found between doing nothing and overreacting.

    True, but often it's extremely difficult to find and doubly so when one has to decide something on the spot.

    Personally, I would have put some men on the house, while waiting for the discovery and confirmation of the documents from both the parents and the authorities concerned, such as the registry office and the Coombe.

    But, I wasn't at the scene.


  • #1305
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    reprazant wrote: »
    They provided birth cert and passports. What other documentation do you feel was needed?

    They couldn't provide them at the time and neither the Registry office or the Coombe could confirm the parents claims.


  • #1306
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Guilty until proven innocent

    Nobody was found "guilty" of anything though. Nobody was charged. The Gardai simply acted in accordance with the Child Care Act.


  • #1307
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    Tony EH wrote: »
    They couldn't provide them at the time and neither the Registry office or the Coombe could confirm the parents claims.
    Wow.. was the registery office contacted also??
    If so the guards were really left hanging out on that one !!

    But the keyboard warriors are here, armed to the teeth with hindsight and out to draw virtual blood of anyone who would contradict them.


  • #1308
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tony EH wrote: »
    They couldn't provide them at the time and neither the Registry office or the Coombe could confirm the parents claims.


    "When gardaí went to their home in the west of the city to investigate the tip offs they had received, the couple told officers the girl was their biological daughter. The gardaí, from the child protection unit in Tallaght Garda station, sought a birth cert and passport. After a period of time the documents were produced."
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/girl-taken-from-dublin-family-over-identity-concerns-1.1569292


  • #1309
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    From the Irish Times:

    "Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Minister for Justice Alan Shatter have said the removal of two Roma children from their homes by State authorities should not be linked to race or result in any group being “singled out” for unwarranted attention."

    Enda in a bind now, because it is perfectly obvious that it cant be linked to anything else, apart maybe from social class.

    There is absolutely no way this would have happened to an Irish family. Or to an American family living in Ireland.

    The only way to deal with this properly is to sack people. What we will get instead of course is a "full and thorough report on the matter".


  • #1310
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    bbam wrote: »
    It wouldnt surprise me if there was some influence from the previous recent case..

    But remember that much of our law and legal arguments are based on legal precedence, the "on the ground experience" that makes guards experienced is based on previous cases they have been involved in...
    This is a terrible case, but from what I've read I don't see a need to demonise anyone..

    Legal precedent refers to the way in which judges read the law based on previous case judgments. It does not mean stupid Gardai have the right to simply whip a child off it's parents because "the same thing happened in Greece" :(


  • #1311
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    bbam wrote: »
    Wow.. was the registery office contacted also??
    If so the guards were really left hanging out on that one !!

    But the keyboard warriors are here, armed to the teeth with hindsight and out to draw virtual blood of anyone who would contradict them.


    Not hindsight pal, I was absolutely amazed to hear it had happened in the first place. Was obvious from the get go the Gardai were out of line.

    Even if the child was proven not to be the biological child of the Roma couple, the Gardai still should have waited until this was proven before acting.


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  • #1312
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Nobody was found "guilty" of anything though. Nobody was charged. The Gardai simply acted in accordance with the Child Care Act.[/QUOTE]


    On what grounds? Quote me the part of the Child Care Act that says why the Gardai are entitled to remove a child without notice from its biological parents, who they have absolutely no reason to believe are treating the child badly.


  • #1313
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is a medium to be found between doing nothing and overreacting.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0122/113023-roscommon/

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1023/482149-dublin-roma-gardai/

    ...apparently we haven't found it yet.


  • #1314
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0122/113023-roscommon/

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1023/482149-dublin-roma-gardai/

    ...apparently we haven't found it yet.


    Its amazing isnt it.....


  • #1315
    General General
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭General General


    Tony EH wrote: »



    If the Gardai had done nothing, coupled with parents trouble in locating documents and other issues, there would be a very different song being sung on this thread.

    We need an anti- or mirror After Hours, where threads are started on the basis of something not having happened that did actually happen & vice versa.

    Y'know, threads featuring titles like:

    was Noonan the worst Taoiseach ever?

    Richard Bruton again attempts to justify his f`cking Bank Guarantee!

    Bertie Ahern, the greatest Taoiseach that we never had!

    &, of course;

    would Tubridy have gone on to be a great Late, Late Show host, had he not died of a cocaine overdose that night?


  • #1316
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Not hindsight pal, I was absolutely amazed to hear it had happened in the first place. Was obvious from the get go the Gardai were out of line.


    Me too. I couldn't really believe it, and actually commented to someone if it does turn out to be their child, there's going to be war...and rightly so.


  • #1317
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bbam wrote: »
    Wow.. was the registery office contacted also??
    If so the guards were really left hanging out on that one !!

    But the keyboard warriors are here, armed to the teeth with hindsight and out to draw virtual blood of anyone who would contradict them.


    Hindsight?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87144523&postcount=183

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87144840&postcount=203


  • #1318
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,883 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Me too. I couldn't really believe it, and actually commented to someone if it does turn out to be their child, there's going to be war...and rightly so.


    What I was thinking was....if they could do it to these Roma then they could do it to me also.

    Only reason to believe this isnt true is if they treat the Roma differently to the rest of us.......but of course Enda doesnt want us to be saying that....


  • #1319
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    Nodin wrote: »
    "When gardaí went to their home in the west of the city to investigate the tip offs they had received, the couple told officers the girl was their biological daughter. The gardaí, from the child protection unit in Tallaght Garda station, sought a birth cert and passport. After a period of time the documents were produced."
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/girl-taken-from-dublin-family-over-identity-concerns-1.1569292

    from the same article..
    "However, investigating gardaí could not be sure of the authenticity of the birth cert. Their concerns were deepened after the couple gave a date of birthday for the child in early 2006 at Dublin’s Coombe Hospital, which had no record of the birth when checks were made"
    In fairness this must have cast a huge doubt over the authentisity of the documents provided...

    "Gardaí also had concerns about the passport because the child in the photograph was much younger than the child at the centre of the case, meaning it was impossible to determine if it was the same girl"
    We've often spoken at home about how useless childrens passports are.. Many look nothing like they do on their passports as they grow so quickly..


  • #1320
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    bbam wrote: »
    Wow.. was the registery office contacted also??
    If so the guards were really left hanging out on that one !!

    But the keyboard warriors are here, armed to the teeth with hindsight and out to draw virtual blood of anyone who would contradict them.

    As far as I understand the events where as follows:

    Nosy neighbour rings Gardai and makes claim.

    Gardai act on claim.

    Gardai visit the household of the Roma family on the 21st (which apparently they had "dealings" with before).

    The Gardai make the issue known to the parents and ask for documentation.

    The parents have trouble locating the documents.

    Gardai ask for verbal details.

    These verbal details cannot be corroborated with either the registry office or the Coombe hospital.

    Gardai take action in accordance with the Child Care Act.

    The parents give consent to a DNA test later on the night of the 22nd.

    Records are later confirmed and DNA returns positive.

    Child returned.


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  • #1321
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bbam wrote: »
    from the same article..
    "However, investigating gardaí could not be sure of the authenticity of the birth cert. Their concerns were deepened after the couple gave a date of birthday for the child in early 2006 at Dublin’s Coombe Hospital, which had no record of the birth when checks were made"
    In fairness this must have cast a huge doubt over the authentisity of the documents provided...

    "Gardaí also had concerns about the passport because the child in the photograph was much younger than the child at the centre of the case, meaning it was impossible to determine if it was the same girl"
    We've often spoken at home about how useless childrens passports are.. Many look nothing like they do on their passports as they grow so quickly..


    Considering the Indo could find that the woman had given birth on the day, and that the only difference was in the first name, you have to wonder what kind of check they made with the Coombe. I'd suggest that the problem here was not Gardaí investigating a report of something suspicious, but gardai believing they were investigating a stolen child.


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