Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1

TommyKnocker · 24-10-2013 02:02PM

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

If a kid looks different than the parents of course suspicion would arise especially if the kid looks like a different race than the parents.

Human beings have this thing called reason and logic and common sense.

If a black woman gives birth to a white baby her black husband is naturally going to think she had an affair with a white guy isn't he?

If a gypsy couple have a white kid with blonde hair everyone is naturally going to assume the worst until there is a DNA test.

Of course anyone who disagrees with the PC industry are called a racist.

Utter rubbish.

I suppose if your underage daughter was pregnant you would believe her immediately if she claimed she was visited by an angel who told her she was blessed among all women and would give birth to the Christ child?

This is one of the craziest posts in this entire thread IMHO.

If a black woman gives birth to a white child, her husband is going to think she cheated.

If a "Gypsy" couple have a white child with blonde hair everybody will "Natrually" assume the worst until a DNA test is performed.

Serious question here.

If a black couple give birth to a white child folks assume the the black woman cheated on her husband. But if a "Gypsy" couple give birth to a white child then folks assume they are child abductors.

Is this what was meant? if so why the double standards? And how would this not show racism towards "Gypsies"?

MonstaMash · 24-10-2013 02:03PM

drquirky wrote: »

Let the record show- I ****ing hate Political Correctness- I just hate racism and discrimination more.

Is it rascist if you hate everyone equally?

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:04PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Plain and simple.
Cops turn up at family door.
Hey, that kid of yours does not look like you. Have you got his birth cert and do you know its blood type?
For me personally i would have to scour the house from top to bottom to find the kids birth certs and the thought of doing that with my heart in my mouth and the police breathing down the back of my neck!
Plus, i do not know the kids blood types!
Okay then Missus, they're coming with us, your kids, or no hang on, just this small wee one, the little two year old one.
I am begging you, do not take my children!
Sorry about that we have reason to believe they are abducted.
I am begging you do not take my precious child.
Tough luck Missus. That's the way we roll. Come here young fella. (Off they go)
Can you imagine!

As for other more equitable ways to protect children, take the whole family into custody while you do DNA checks. Keep a cop on the door of their house while you wait for the results. But, dear God, do not want into someones home and pick up their child and walk out with it.

Your one sided dramatisation does nothing for the debate...

Children are rightly taken from parents homes to protect them. In some cases its under obvious circumstances where parents are lying around strung out on drugs and the kids are hungry and dirty...
But as with the application of any law there will be cases at the fringes of what is obvious that will cause problems... that is why legislation will have clauses like "reasonable suspicion".
On one hand if there is a doubt at all that something underhand is going on then we'd all like the guards/HSE to step in and take action.. But now witht he power of hindesight it looks like people jumped the gun. Hindsight isnt there on the doorstep when possibly a child is at risk, decisions aren't certain and best judgement is the best evidence to act on.

From the bit I've read the guards acted within reason, they were working with HSE officers and I understand that a consultant was contacted to try and understand the possibility of a blond blue eyed child being born of romany gypsy parents.

I feel for the families, guards and HSE officers in these cases, maybe one parent should have been brought into secure accomodation with the children until proof was attained, but thats not the system the guards are given and they just cant go making things up... I can imagine the outcry if the guards had left with their DNA samples, found the child didn't match and then gone back to find the family or child disappeared...

Its all to easy to sit behind a keyboard, armed with hindsight and poke holes in what happened.

But to be clear... some small number of children need to be taken from parents, its not nice but its a fact - and I'd hazard a guess that more should be removed and fostered/adopted into suitable families to break the cycles of depravity they are being raised hopelessly into.

Ace2007 · 24-10-2013 02:08PM

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

In Greece there is a white blonde kid who has been abducted by gypsies who came up with multiple fake stories that they were her parents. Stories that were plainly lies and absurdities.

A person or persons in Tallaght saw the story and became suspicious that the very same was happening where they live - a gypsy family with a suspiciously blonde haired kid - and told the Gardaí.

The Gardaí investigated - they have to investigate all allegations that child may be in danger especially if the child may be held against his/her will - and the evidence that gypsies gave them that they were the parents of the child was found wanting.

In those circumstances they would have no option but to take the child into care - rescue the child from people could potential be kidnappers.

They performed a DNA test, they found out the kid was actually their kid and gave the kid back.

End of.

Now what the f*ck is the problem?

They had reasonable grounds to investigate, reasonable grounds to intervene and now it is all square and time to move on.

Based on all of this, why then

Only take one of the children into care?
Why not arrest the parent of suspicion of abduction?
Why not do a DNA test on all the children in the house, is it simple because this child looks different?

Like I've asked a poster before would the guards take a child off an Irish family on holidays in Kerry if they had no documentation but claimed the child was legally adopted, or would the guards look into all the facts first? Pretty much identical situation.

24-10-2013 02:08PM

There's been twins before that were born one black one white
Could imagine the fuss about that one
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123050/Look-The-black-white-twins-turn-seven.html

Autonomous Cowherd · 24-10-2013 02:09PM

bbam wrote: »

Your one sided dramatisation does nothing for the debate...

Children are rightly taken from parents homes to protect them. In some cases its under obvious circumstances where parents are lying around strung out on drugs and the kids are hungry and dirty...
But as with the application of any law there will be cases at the fringes of what is obvious that will cause problems... that is why legislation will have clauses like "reasonable suspicion".
On one hand if there is a doubt at all that something underhand is going on then we'd all like the guards/HSE to step in and take action.. But now witht he power of hindesight it looks like people jumped the gun.

From the bit I've read the guards acted within reason, they were working with HES officers and I understand that a consultant was contacted to try and understand the possibility of a blond blue eyed child being born of romany gypsy parents.

I feel for the families, guards and HSE officers in these cases, maybe one parent should have been brought into secure accomodation with the children until proof was attained, but thats not the system the guards are given and they just cant go making things up... I can imagine the outcry if the guards had left with their DNA samples, found the child didn't match and then gone back to find the family or child disappeared...

Its all to easy to sit behind a keyboard, armed with hindsight and poke holes in what happened.

But to be clear... some small number of children need to be taken from parents, its not nice but its a fact - and I'd hazard a guess that more should be removed and fostered/adopted into suitable families to break the cycles of depravity they are being raised hopelessly into.

It was not a one sided dramatisation. It was a telling of the events as i would perceive them as they were happening to me. Empathy, maybe?
These parents were not strung out on drugs. The child was not ill-cared for, nor was there any reason to suspect abuse. This was a beloved child of an ordinary family catapulted into an extraordinary situation. There MUST be more legitimate means to deal with suspicion of wrong-doing.

Nodin · 24-10-2013 02:26PM

bbam wrote: »

Your one sided dramatisation does nothing for the debate...

Children are rightly taken from parents homes to protect them. In some cases its under obvious circumstances where parents are lying around strung out on drugs and the kids are hungry and dirty...
But as with the application of any law there will be cases at the fringes of what is obvious that will cause problems... that is why legislation will have clauses like "reasonable suspicion".
On one hand if there is a doubt at all that something underhand is going on then we'd all like the guards/HSE to step in and take action.. But now witht he power of hindesight it looks like people jumped the gun. Hindsight isnt there on the doorstep when possibly a child is at risk, decisions aren't certain and best judgement is the best evidence to act on.

From the bit I've read the guards acted within reason, they were working with HSE officers and I understand that a consultant was contacted to try and understand the possibility of a blond blue eyed child being born of romany gypsy parents.

...............

They spent two hours with the family. They conducted a cursory check which conformed to their pre-conceived notions. The whole things a farce.

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:29PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

There MUST be more legitimate means to deal with suspicion of wrong-doing.

But there aren't..
The guards used the only powers available to them to protect a child that potentially was at risk.. Personally I think in such cases removing a parent along with the child should be an option - but as far as im concerned its not an option

The parents couldn't provide any/credible documentation to support their claims. A query had been raised for them to investigate.

Its not ideal, I'm not saying close the book and move on.. but the folks on the ground standing in the house have limited time to come up with solutions, they must work within the framework they are given. These families have been tramautised and deserve recompence.
What we here in Ireland fail at is learning - I wouldn't be surprised in six months time if guards aren't sent out to a similar case with no different solutions to this same probelm at hand.

Santa Cruz · 24-10-2013 02:31PM

1. If any our children had been abducted would we not want the police to follow up every lead? This was not done lightly.

2. I am glad that so many people are concerned about the Roma children. This will help fill the baskets of the many Roma beggars around the city. Maybe the experts will actually bring them home and give them a nice meal, clothes etc. rather than walk past them as they do

Nodin · 24-10-2013 02:32PM

bbam wrote: »

But there aren't..
The guards used the only powers available to them to protect a child that potentially was at risk.. Personally I think in such cases removing a parent along with the child should be an option - but as far as im concerned its not an option

The parents couldn't provide any/credible documentation to support their claims. A query had been raised for them to investigate..

No, the gardai weren't satisfied with what they were given, which is a different thing altogether.

Donaldio · 24-10-2013 02:32PM

Its a serious serious embarrassment for the gaurds that along with the Garda shell alcohol story in news at present. I mean it is not as if there is not a real human trafficking problem in Ireland so why cant they do something about a real problem ? Like make prostitution ilegal ?

Tony EH · 24-10-2013 02:36PM

bbam wrote: »

Your one sided dramatisation does nothing for the debate...

Children are rightly taken from parents homes to protect them. In some cases its under obvious circumstances where parents are lying around strung out on drugs and the kids are hungry and dirty...
But as with the application of any law there will be cases at the fringes of what is obvious that will cause problems... that is why legislation will have clauses like "reasonable suspicion".
On one hand if there is a doubt at all that something underhand is going on then we'd all like the guards/HSE to step in and take action.. But now witht he power of hindesight it looks like people jumped the gun. Hindsight isnt there on the doorstep when possibly a child is at risk, decisions aren't certain and best judgement is the best evidence to act on.

From the bit I've read the guards acted within reason, they were working with HSE officers and I understand that a consultant was contacted to try and understand the possibility of a blond blue eyed child being born of romany gypsy parents.

I feel for the families, guards and HSE officers in these cases, maybe one parent should have been brought into secure accomodation with the children until proof was attained, but thats not the system the guards are given and they just cant go making things up... I can imagine the outcry if the guards had left with their DNA samples, found the child didn't match and then gone back to find the family or child disappeared...

Its all to easy to sit behind a keyboard, armed with hindsight and poke holes in what happened.

But to be clear... some small number of children need to be taken from parents, its not nice but its a fact - and I'd hazard a guess that more should be removed and fostered/adopted into suitable families to break the cycles of depravity they are being raised hopelessly into.

Refering to the bolded sentence, this is why the law as it stands is so flexible allows officers great leeway and frankly given the history of our state's child abuse from various quarters, one can understand that.

I can imagine the outcry if the guards had left with their DNA samples, found the child didn't match and then gone back to find the family or child disappeared...

And that is a salient point. If the Gardai had done nothing, coupled with parents trouble in locating documents and other issues, there would be a very different song being sung on this thread.

wicklowstevo · 24-10-2013 02:37PM

Simple answer to this debate and many others like wise ones .

licence people to have children, there are man many people out there who shouldn't have them because they cant care for them.

your ment to have a licence for a dog, a tv but any one with the required body parts can create a child and raise it in any unfit way they want.

on another issue .I wonder how much more money a blond haired blue eyed child makes when you plonk it on the hapenny bridge and pinch it to make it cry every time some one gullible walks by.

Ace2007 · 24-10-2013 02:38PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Refering to the bolded sentence, this is why the law as it stands is so flexible allows officers great leeway and frankly given the history of our state's child abuse from various quarters, one can understand that.

And that is a salient point. If the Gardai had done nothing, coupled with parents trouble in locating documents and other issues, there would be a very different song being sung on this thread.

There was no trouble in finding the documents, just the guards did not believe they were real - turns out they were...

What is the child had gone missing while in the care of the HSE - like a lot seem to do - what then?

If you think the child has been abducted why not arrest the parents?

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:39PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Like I've asked a poster before would the guards take a child off an Irish family on holidays in Kerry if they had no documentation but claimed the child was legally adopted, or would the guards look into all the facts first? Pretty much identical situation.

When you say look into all the facts first what do you mean??

Ask for adoption certs or passports? Wasnt that done, didnt they ask for birth certs?.
Contact the HSE to confirm the adoption? Didnt the guards bring in the HSE officers?
I'm certain that adoptive parents could easily put their hands on adoption certs at home if they didnt already have them in their posession. these parents couldn't provide documentation to clear the suspicion that was raised to the guards, between the guards and HSE they took drastic action in an effore to protect the children.. I don't like the way this has turned out, but I equally can't see what else could have been done

Nodin · 24-10-2013 02:39PM

Tony EH wrote: »

And that is a salient point. If the Gardai had done nothing, coupled with parents trouble in locating documents and other issues, there would be a very different song being sung on this thread.

There is a medium to be found between doing nothing and overreacting.

up for anything · 24-10-2013 02:39PM

Donaldio wrote: »

so why cant they do something about a real problem ? Like make prostitution ilegal ?

Is it a real problem for people not to be able to buy sex or a quick hand job?

reprazant · 24-10-2013 02:41PM

bbam wrote: »

When you say look into all the facts first what do you mean??

Ask for adoption certs or passports? Wasnt that done, didnt they ask for birth certs?.
Contact the HSE to confirm the adoption? Didnt the guards bring in the HSE officers?
I'm certain that adoptive parents could easily put their hands on adoption certs at home if they didnt already have them in their posession. these parents couldn't provide documentation to clear the suspicion that was raised to the guards, between the guards and HSE they took drastic action in an effore to protect the children.. I don't like the way this has turned out, but I equally can't see what else could have been done

They provided birth cert and passports. What other documentation do you feel was needed?

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:42PM

Nodin wrote: »

There is a medium to be found between doing nothing and overreacting.

I agree in so far as a better system for dealing with such cases needs to be found.. But guards aren't allowed to make up new procedures on the hoof... they implement what is laid down.

My name is URL · 24-10-2013 02:43PM

wicklowstevo wrote: »

Simple answer to this debate and many others like wise ones .

licence people to have children, there are man many people out there who shouldn't have them because they cant care for them.

your ment to have a licence for a dog, a tv but any one with the required body parts can create a child and raise it in any unfit way they want.

on another issue .I wonder how much more money a blond haired blue eyed child makes when you plonk it on the hapenny bridge and pinch it to make it cry every time some one gullible walks by.

What criteria would need to be met in order for people to be granted a licence? Would the ability to spell and construct intelligible sentences be considered.. or the racist inclinations of the parent?

Sure who'd want a child growing up in such an environment? :rolleyes:

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:43PM

reprazant wrote: »

They provided birth cert and passports. What other documentation do you feel was needed?

I'm sorry..
My understanding is that in one case no documentation could be produced and in the other case the guards weren't convinced by the documentation provided?? Is this not the case?

Nodin · 24-10-2013 02:44PM

bbam wrote: »

I agree in so far as a better system for dealing with such cases needs to be found.. But guards aren't allowed to make up new procedures on the hoof... they implement what is laid down.

....and given the paucity of children taken into care on the basis of a two hour visit, it's quite questionable in that regard.

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:46PM

Nodin wrote: »

....and given the paucity of children taken into care on the basis of a two hour visit, it's quite questionable in that regard.

questionable maybe... but thats what they must work with!

wicklowstevo · 24-10-2013 02:46PM

how about a minimum IQ and display an ability to look after them self's before having responsibility for another person.

racisim is a personality defect rather than anything else and while misfortunate it shouldn't disqualify

Nodin · 24-10-2013 02:50PM

bbam wrote: »

questionable maybe... but thats what they must work with!

And again, I don't believe those were the only options open to them. Normally it's a dragged out process to remove children from parents who are clearly unable to cope (I'm primarily thinking junkies). Yet here we have a quick look at documents and its off out the door - it speaks of horrendous overreaction.

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:50PM

wicklowstevo wrote: »

racisim is a personality defect rather than anything else and while misfortunate it shouldn't disqualify

Thats the biggest cop out and load of BS I've seen here in a long time !

Racisim occours through ignorance, lack of education and moral direction.

bbam · 24-10-2013 02:52PM

Nodin wrote: »

And again, I don't believe those were the only options open to them. Normally it's a dragged out process to remove children from parents who are clearly unable to cope (I'm primarily thinking junkies). Yet here we have a quick look at documents and its off out the door - it speaks of horrendous overreaction.

Nope..
Children can be and are taken into care instantly if the situation arrises. I've spoken to social workers about this specifically - it happens, just not enbough!

opiniated · 24-10-2013 02:53PM

old hippy wrote: »

The right wing element must be absolutely fuming with the latest developments. Those who like to dismiss racism in Ireland frankly haven't a leg to stand on.

I hope the Gardai involved are prosectuted.

Why?

thetwangman wrote: »

The Gardai clearly went off half cocked. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and put it down to incompetance rather than racism. But the original message on facebook which led to this witch-hunt was clearly based on racial prejudice.

I haven't read the last 10 pages, or so, and I'm not singling you two out, I just selected two fairly random posts.

It seems to me that the Gardaí had to act on a report.
They weren't happy with the documentation provided, so they sought further information from two sources - an "expert" in genetics, and the hospital where the child was born.

Based on the (false) information given by the Hospital, the Gardaí felt they had grounds to act as they did.

So why is everyone criticizing the Gardaí, and ignoring the clerical error by the hospital?

Is the Coombe too important to criticize, or what?
It seems to me that the errors weren't of the Gardaí's making - they were supplied with incorrect information.

It's still a scary thought, though, that a child can be taken from it's parents in such a fashion.
Time for the HSE to implement some procedures that are less traumatic for the child in such a situation.

Nodin · 24-10-2013 02:54PM

bbam wrote: »

Nope..
Children can be and are taken into care instantly if the situation arrises. I've spoken to social workers about this specifically - it happens, just not enbough!

...but rarely, and even rarer still on the basis of an initial visit, afaik. This reeks of a kneejerk reaction, linked to the greek incident.

Balaclava1991 · 24-10-2013 02:56PM

Grayson wrote: »

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The simple fact is that this wouldn't have happened if the parents weren't roma.

If you'd had two dark haired irish people with cork accents who had a blonde girl you wouldn't think they'd snatched them or think it was ok to take the child. If you think it's ok to remove a child from their parents simply because they're Roma, then you're racist/discriminating.

That's what racism is. It's changing the rules because of someone colour.

If anyone had a suspicion that a kid was abducted and the parents could not prove they were the parents of the kid, the kid would be taken off them.

That's what the Gardaí would do in all cases.

There is no shadow of doubt about that.

These racism accusations are the usual drivel that are spouted by the rent a crowd ultra left mob who turn up at every lunatic protest.

The same shower are forever protesting for the rights of Al-Qaeda murderers held in Gitmo to be released so they can kill again, the rights of dissident Republicans to be let out so they can launch another Omagh attack, the rights of Hamas to rocket Jews in Israel without being killed by IDF helicopter gunships, the right of the Taliban to enslave the people of Afghanistan in peace. When Saddam Hussein was executed they held a protest at the supposed murder of a tyrant to killed hundreds of people.

There's this mad old guy with a beard who always turns up outside Government Buildings hail rain or shine with a piece of cardboard giving out about the CIA flying hog tied captured terrorists through Shannon.

The differences between loons like this and the slick well dressed and articulate ultra left NGO spokespersons who bang on about what a fascist police force the Gardaí are is the money they get donors who had a political agenda against this country.

These fifth columnists are a menace.

Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

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Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1