Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1

K-9 · 24-10-2013 12:23AM

Handsome Child Removed From Ugly Donegal Family - Donegal Dollop

Gardaí were alerted to the child’s situation after a poorly punctuated rant was posted on Facebook by someone who may or may not live near the family in question. This prompted a quick visual assessment of the situation onsite followed by an immediate application for a care order.
“Let me be very clear about this, the child in question is noticeably better looking than both parents,” said Detective Inspector Domhnaill Ó Dathúil, head of the investigative team, “I mean these two were really ugly, we’re talking ‘back of the island’ ugly here. We felt we had no choice but to take action in order to protect the child from further aesthetic harm.”

The case has sparked furious debate online over child protection policy, with many arguing that children should be left in potential danger until significant evidence arises to suggest that the alleged potential danger is actually real danger. Some have even called for money to be set aside from the recent budget to purchase a psychic ‘danger detector’ for An Garda Síochana to use if similar cases should arise in the future.

constance tench · 24-10-2013 12:23AM

K-9 wrote: »

Apparently the law used is from 1991 so nothing to do with the referendum, wont stop people claiming it was though.

...The Law that wasn't used is from 1991.

Pompey Magnus · 24-10-2013 12:23AM

I notice in the second case the father of the boy was asked to provide a DNA sample to prove the identity of the child, why would the authorities risk a Jeremy Kyle style situation where the results came back that he wasn't related to the boy but a follow up test confirmed the mother was his mother? Why not just ask the mother for a sample and avoid the possibility of further unpleasant repercussions to add to those experienced by completely innocent families having a child taken into custody?

Galwayguy35 · 24-10-2013 12:25AM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

I notice in the second case the father of the boy was asked to provide a DNA sample to prove the identity of the child, why would the authorities risk a Jeremy Kyle style situation where the results came back that he wasn't related to the boy but a follow up test confirmed the mother was his mother? Why not just ask the mother for a sample and avoid the possibility of further unpleasant repercussions to add to those experienced by completely innocent families having a child taken into custody?

Wouldn't it be better for him to know if he wasn't the father?

Ace2007 · 24-10-2013 12:25AM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

I notice in the second case the father of the boy was asked to provide a DNA sample to prove the identity of the child, why would the authorities risk a Jeremy Kyle style situation where the results came back that he wasn't related to the boy but a follow up test confirmed the mother was his mother? Why not just ask the mother for a sample and avoid the possibility of further unpleasant repercussions to add to those experienced by completely innocent families having a child taken into custody?

He could be the father and the woman not the mother.

Curly Judge · 24-10-2013 12:27AM

mhge wrote: »

False dichotomy... investigation does not imply putting the child into custody.

It's been pointed out on a number of occasions that under the legislation, as it stands, the garda and the HSE had no option but to take the child into protective custody.
That may well be the fault of the legislators but it is hardly the fault of the HSE or the Garda.
Perhaps an independent minded Superintendent with plenty of resources might have come to a willing agreement with the family whereby the child might been allowed to stay in its home in the presence of a child care worker and a burly member of the force until the riddle was sorted but I doubt if normal police procedures would have allowed such a course of action.

strandroad · 24-10-2013 12:28AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better for him to know if he wasn't the father?

He might know but they wouldn't like the whole world to know too.

strandroad · 24-10-2013 12:31AM

Curly Judge wrote: »

It's been pointed out on a number of occasions that under the legislation, as it stands, the garda and the HSE had no option but to take the child into protective custody.
That may well be the fault of the legislators but it is hardly the fault of the HSE or the Garda.
Perhaps an independent minded Superintendent with plenty of resources might have come to a willing agreement with the family whereby the child might been allowed to stay in its home in the presence of a child care worker and a burly member of the force until the riddle was sorted but I doubt if normal police procedures would have allowed such a course of action.

Is it explained anywhere apart from "it has been posted"? HSE supervision option (stats even) were listed in some articles so such option seems to exist.

kumate_champ07 · 24-10-2013 12:35AM

DNA match positive
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1023/482149-dublin-roma-gardai/

hope they sue the government

Simi · 24-10-2013 12:35AM

Phoebas wrote: »

The Child Catcher is on his way to your location.

Come along, kiddie-winkies!

24-10-2013 12:36AM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

DNA match positive
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1023/482149-dublin-roma-gardai/

hope they sue the government

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/section/learning/general/onthisday/big/0720_big.gif

Balaclava1991 · 24-10-2013 12:36AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn't read anything about abuse and neglect but the child in Greece does not seem to have suffered that either.

I would think abduction would be abuse wouldn't it?

kumate_champ07 · 24-10-2013 12:38AM

its like taking a red haired freckled kid from parents because none of them have red hair, it just shouldnt happen.

strandroad · 24-10-2013 12:38AM

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

I would think abduction would be abuse wouldn't it?

No proof of abduction as of now, illegal adoption angle is what seems to be pursued ATM.

bb12 · 24-10-2013 12:39AM

and remind me again, how many children placed under the HSE's care are officially missing and unaccounted for?

wicklowstevo · 24-10-2013 12:42AM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

its like taking a red haired freckled kid from parents because none of them have red hair, it just shouldnt happen.

your right no one wants ginger kids !

fasttalkerchat · 24-10-2013 12:43AM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

It's a crime to take someone's child unless they're in immediate danger. Now unless their place was a kip (which it could have been) then nobody has the right to take your child away from you provided you are a legal custodian of said child.

I hope they don't sue the state because we're broke as **** as it is and the parents will probably win some damages.

They were racially profiled and had their child taken off them. If the Guards had come and taken a child off Sean and Sheila Murphy (one a teacher and the other a librarian) people would lose their sh1t altogether about this. Who do the state think they are taking peoples children blah blah blah and the thing is they would be right to be angry about it. It's Romas though, so many people couldn't give a toss about them.

I don't exactly hold the Roma people in high regard but from the information that I've read about this story so far I think this was wrong and it was a bad call.

The hospital said there was no record and the birth cert didn't seem to match records.
Possibly the child wasn't born here and the cert was a fake.
Maybe they're totally innocent, but it certainly didn't look that way.

Balaclava1991 · 24-10-2013 12:45AM

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

Let's change some nationalities.

If a French couple are found in Scotland with a kid who isn't theirs, it gets taken away. Proper order.

Someone in Italy rings the police and says, "There's these French people beside me, with a kid who I think isn't theirs."

The fact that both couples are French does not make it more likely that the person is right. Anyone who thinks it does, is a failure at logic.

If you can't see that, I wish you all the best in life, and hope you never work in social services.

In Greece there is a white blonde kid who has been abducted by gypsies who came up with multiple fake stories that they were her parents. Stories that were plainly lies and absurdities.

A person or persons in Tallaght saw the story and became suspicious that the very same was happening where they live - a gypsy family with a suspiciously blonde haired kid - and told the Gardaí.

The Gardaí investigated - they have to investigate all allegations that child may be in danger especially if the child may be held against his/her will - and the evidence that gypsies gave them that they were the parents of the child was found wanting.

In those circumstances they would have no option but to take the child into care - rescue the child from people could potential be kidnappers.

They performed a DNA test, they found out the kid was actually their kid and gave the kid back.

End of.

Now what the f*ck is the problem?

They had reasonable grounds to investigate, reasonable grounds to intervene and now it is all square and time to move on.

bb12 · 24-10-2013 12:52AM

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

In Greece there is a white blonde kid who has been abducted by gypsies who came up with multiple fake stories that they were her parents. Stories that were plainly lies and absurdities.

A person or persons in Tallaght saw the story and became suspicious that the very same was happening where they live - a gypsy family with a suspiciously blonde haired kid - and told the Gardaí.

The Gardaí investigated - they have to investigate all allegations that child may be in danger especially if the child may be held against his/her will - and the evidence that gypsies gave them that they were the parents of the child was found wanting.

In those circumstances they would have no option but to take the child into care - rescue the child from people could potential be kidnappers.

They performed a DNA test, they found out the kid was actually their kid and gave the kid back.

End of.

Now what the f*ck is the problem?

They had reasonable grounds to investigate, reasonable grounds to intervene and now it is all square and time to move on.

yeah try that logic out with the likes of the birmingham 6 or the guildford 4...sorry lads, we made a mistake but it's all squared now so lets just move on

Balaclava1991 · 24-10-2013 12:55AM

bb12 wrote: »

yeah try that logic out with the likes of the birmingham 6 or the guildford 4...sorry lads, we made a mistake but it's all squared now so lets just move on

What has this got to do with the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4?

This thread is about a Gardaí investigation into a potential child abduction.

The DNA test proves the child was the child of the gypsy family so the Gardaí returned the child to her family and dropped the case.

End of.

Time to move on.

bb12 · 24-10-2013 12:57AM

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

What has this got to do with the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4?

your logic process

Balaclava1991 · 24-10-2013 12:59AM

bb12 wrote: »

your logic process

We are talking about an investigation into potential child abduction.

What in the name of God has that got to do with an IRA bombing in the 1970s?

The Gardaí had reasonable suspicions that the kid was not the child of the gypsy parents and they took the kid into care for its own safety while they performed a DNA test. DNA test shows the kid is theirs so they handed the kid back.

Job done.

What's the controversy about?

wil · 24-10-2013 12:59AM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Come to think of it I may have been abducted cos I'm the only good looking one in my family.

K-9 wrote: »

Handsome Child Removed From Ugly Donegal Family - Donegal Dollop

After this tip off a team of mods arrived at Stewies house early this morning.
They were obliged to respond under the mods charter.
On entering the house they confirmed there wasn't a looker among them.

Stewie's now in good hands and soon to be reunited with his handsome family.:D

Red21 · 24-10-2013 01:36AM

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

w

Now what the f*ck is the problem?

Got this from humanrights.ie it does a good job explaining the the problem.

How did gardai use their emergency power under s. 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 in these cases? (Hear the Special Rapporteur for Child Protection discuss the legal issues here.) S. 12 allows Gardai to summarily remove a child from the family home into the care of the HSE. The garda must have reasonable grounds for believing that there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child. This is not a new statutory provision. It is not clear what immediate and serious risk was present in that case, or what reasonable grounds the gardai were acting upon. Moreover, s. 12 is only to be used where it is not possible to wait for an application to the District Court for an emergency care order. It is not clear why this case merited the exercise of this -clearly exceptional – police power rather than one of the other, more measured pathways to care available under the legislation. Contrast this case with another reported today, in which s. 12 was clearly invoked as a last resort in the case of an 8 year old girl, known to the HSE, who had been living in direct provision with her ill mother since birth.
It is difficult to judge, from this distance, the reasonableness of the garda’s belief that the Roma girl returned to her family tonight was at immediate and serious risk at the time of her removal. Reasonable belief is not an especially stringent standard. For instance, a garda may take account of evidence which would not be admissible in court. Questions of prima facie proof are for the later court hearings required under the 1991 Act, and so it does not matter that the garda’s belief later turns out not to have been factually accurate. However, it is clear that mere suspicion is not enough to satisfy the statutory test. And while the garda’s belief should be formed in good faith, good faith is not in itself enough to satisfy the Act – the belief must also be reasonable. A reasonable belief cannot be formed on the basis of an individual’s ethnic heritage alone. Certainly, it is important to find out what garda protocols are in place in child protection cases to ensure that gardai eliminate sources of potential racial bias from their decision-making.
Newspaper reports suggest that gardai were not satisfied with the documentation which the girl’s parents produced to verify her parentage. Subsequent investigations have shown that the information they gave about her date and place of birth was accurate. We know that at least one ‘tip-off’ to the gardai had come via facebook from a member of the public, who posted a message to the page of a television journalist known for reporting on Traveller and Roma issues. When the cases were initially reported, Irish papers were quick to see an apparent connection between these cases and the Greek case of ‘Maria’. Newspapers rushed to judgment, describing the girl as ‘found living with’ a Roma family, as an ‘Irish Maria’ and a ‘mystery girl’.

Pompey Magnus · 24-10-2013 05:34AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better for him to know if he wasn't the father?

Perhaps he would but it isn't the State's responsibility to be the one informing him.

Phoebas · 24-10-2013 07:15AM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The hospital said there was no record and the birth cert didn't seem to match records.
Possibly the child wasn't born here and the cert was a fake.
Maybe they're totally innocent, but it certainly didn't look that way.

There was a record but the Gardai didn't ensure a sufficient search before taking the child.

petrolcan · 24-10-2013 07:28AM

dj jarvis wrote: »

when in doubt and all that

Really? So if you happened to be stopped on the street and asked to prove your identity but couldn't, you be happy to be detained until such time as it was proven?

Susie564 · 24-10-2013 07:29AM

bb12 wrote: »

yeah try that logic out with the likes of the birmingham 6 or the guildford 4...sorry lads, we made a mistake but it's all squared now so lets just move on

Well if they had been held and questioned for 24 hrs or so until their stories checked out and then released, i don't think they would have complained too much.

petrolcan · 24-10-2013 07:40AM

EmptyTree wrote: »

They did contact the hosiptal, no records were found.

They didn't check for themselves though.

petrolcan · 24-10-2013 07:46AM

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

And what if the suspects do a runner with the kid in the meantime?

Police remain with family whilst birth records are checked.

Police work 101 or do you watch any cop shows or what?

CSI Tallaght?

You are definitely taking the mickey now.

Indeed you are!

Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

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Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1