Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

Ace2007

gandalf wrote: »

The next question is if this was an Irish family where the parents were both ginger haired with freckles and the child had dark hair and sallow skin would they have been treated in the same manner? I have a feeling they would have gotten the double and triple check before the child was parted from their parents.

Watch out - Tayto will think your playing the racist card with that comment...

Nodin

dj jarvis wrote: »

and you know that they did not do both ?

It's blatantly obvious they didn't.

strandroad

blue4ever wrote: »

If the child in Athlone was taken into care because he had blond hair and blue eyes - and again there was no mention at all (in camera) as to why he was taken into care and I speculate - but if it were based on that or some 'ethnic abnormality' in the eyes of a neighbor - we're fcuked as a thinking and level headed society.

Gardai were believed to be acting on concerns about the little boy's appearance, but were satisfied about his identity after carrying out inquiries.

So says the Indo.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/they-took-my-baby-now-we-are-just-glad-to-have-him-back-29694584.html

Here the parents also produced his papers (he was born in Ireland) and gave samples. He was taken away still.

Phoebas

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If they hadn't taken the child into care and it had been abducted then the parents could have absconded with the child while an investigation was taking place. The authorities took the most prudent course of action in the circumstances.

They could have ensured the safety of the child without removing it from the custody of the parents.

Nodin

Ace2007 wrote: »

Watch out - Tayto will think your playing the racist card with that comment...

He can think it all he wants.

dj jarvis

dj jarvis wrote: »

if the info did not match up , then i suppose they would , but why would my kids info not match up , i have it all

but at the time , this family did not , till it was sorted , they had no choice

Happy to rely on hospital clerical staff who've already been shown to be fallible?

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know what it threw up but there must have been some concerns when the child was removed. The garda must have had some concerns.

Like what? Anything, no matter how fantastical, once logical will do. Other than the manufactured "flight-risk", what else could they have found that would have legitimately "raised concerns" at the time but 2 days later don't?

Ace2007

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If they hadn't taken the child into care and it had been abducted then the parents could have absconded with the child while an investigation was taking place. The authorities took the most prudent course of action in the circumstances.

ok let's look at this example - if you believe this to be true and the child was not the parents, why don't they arrest the parents there and then on the suspicion of abduction - so that they won't try to flee the country?

Pappa Charlie

Most of the people complaining of the child being taken into care are likely to never have to face a decision anywhere like that in their workplace, if the gardai hadn't acted and the child went missing their would be an outcry internationally not alone nationally, your dammed if you do your job and dammed if you don't!

blue4ever

gandalf wrote: »

The next question is if this was an Irish family where the parents were both ginger haired with freckles and the child had dark hair and sallow skin would they have been treated in the same manner? I have a feeling they would have gotten the double and triple check before the child was parted from their parents.

In this time, possibly they would have asked if the child was destined to be a "south paw" - if the parents struggled with that - the child would have been whipped off.

(well done J.J.N. turning Pro today by the way)

Scortho

Overdahill wrote: »

So what i think you are saying is : if the Gardai arrived at your house, expressed concern that one of your kids was not actually yours, made a perfunctory call to the hospital where you claimed the child was born, told you the hosp did not back up your story, rejected your proof...birth cert, passport etc as false...you would be happy for them to take your child from your home into Hse care until a DNA test proved that the child was indeed yours? Just checking

Reverse the situation. Your child gets kidnapped at age 1. Four years down the line people notice, that child has no features of "parents" (lets say coloured parents white baby). At the time of the investigation no evidence can be provided to back up that the child is their child. Gardaí decide to not investigate further.

10 years down the line this child turns out to be your missing child.

How angry would you be?

Phoebas

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Most of the people complaining of the child being taken into care are likely to never have to face a decision anywhere like that in their workplace, if the gardai hadn't acted and the child went missing their would be an outcry internationally not alone nationally, your dammed if you do your job and dammed if you don't!

For the umpteenth time.
Nobody is saying that the Gardai shouldn't have acted, just that they shouldn't have taken the child into custody based on a flawed two hour investigation.

Scortho

Scortho wrote: »

Reverse the situation. Your child gets kidnapped at age 1. Four years down the line people notice, that child has no features of "parents" (lets say coloured parents white baby). At the time of the investigation no evidence can be provided to back up that the child is their child. Gardaí decide to not investigate further.

10 years down the line this child turns out to be your missing child.

How angry would you be?

That would be pretty annoying. In this case evidence was provided.
You should maybe use "black" rather than "coloured" these days btw. :pac:

tayto lover

Ace2007 wrote: »

again, 2 children taken from Roma' families in Ireland in 1 week,
let me know when take a child from an irish family this week - i'm sure there are plenty of children out there that don't look like their parents.... but of course this won't happen.

There was a child taken from a family near the border a few weeks ago -

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dayold-baby-taken-from-mother-in-hse-custody-until-monday-29615204.html

Child returned a week later when threat was removed (boyfriend).
Not far from where I live it seems.

Fussgangerzone

Scortho wrote: »

Reverse the situation. Your child gets kidnapped at age 1. Four years down the line people notice, that child has no features of "parents" (lets say coloured parents white baby). At the time of the investigation no evidence can be provided to back up that the child is their child. Gardaí decide to not investigate further.

10 years down the line this child turns out to be your missing child.

How angry would you be?

What not even a passport or birth cert, which were present in this case? I'd be very angry.

Overdahill

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Most of the people complaining of the child being taken into care are likely to never have to face a decision anywhere like that in their workplace, if the gardai hadn't acted and the child went missing their would be an outcry internationally not alone nationally, your dammed if you do your job and dammed if you don't!

To be fair, that's the job. Many of us make difficult decisions of all kinds on a daily basis. The key is systems, processes, clarity of thinking and remaining objective. Not sure that happened in this case.

Oh and I'm not having a go at the front end cops who did the deed. These decisions will have been driven from further up, by someone who knee jerked because of fear of being damned if he/she didn't. Not the best basis for a decision.

Shameful indictment of our society.

deirdremf

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

If police suspect a child is abducted then they have to assume the child in a serious and immediate risk don't they?

Suspect is not enough: I think the legal term would be reasonable suspicion - and it looks as if there wasn't reasonable suspicion here, they seem to have just jumped to a conclusion. I also wonder who their "expert" was that told them Roma couldn't have fair-haired children.

I can't believe I actually have to ask that question!

Don't you think if people are lunatic enough to steal a child from its parents they are lunatic enough to do harm to the child?

Didn't occur to you? No?

Ehhh - did it occur to you that there was no kidnapping involved here? Just people jumping to conclusions, in Dublin and Athlone.
I wonder did it happen to any other Roma? and if so, how many times has it happened?

I really, really hope that you're not a guard, because if you are, we are all in serious trouble.

tayto lover

gandalf wrote: »

The next question is if this was an Irish family where the parents were both ginger haired with freckles and the child had dark hair and sallow skin would they have been treated in the same manner? I have a feeling they would have gotten the double and triple check before the child was parted from their parents.

We don't know what will happen as it hasn't arisen yet.

Nodin

tayto lover wrote: »

There was a child taken from a family near the border a few weeks ago -

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dayold-baby-taken-from-mother-in-hse-custody-until-monday-29615204.html

Child returned a week later when threat was removed (boyfriend).
Not far from where I live it seems.

Yep. That wasn't the result of a two hour initial investigation, was it?

strandroad

Scortho wrote: »

Reverse the situation. Your child gets kidnapped at age 1. Four years down the line people notice, that child has no features of "parents" (lets say coloured parents white baby). At the time of the investigation no evidence can be provided to back up that the child is their child. Gardaí decide to not investigate further.

False dichotomy... investigation does not imply putting the child into custody.

BlaasForRafa

Phoebas wrote: »

They could have ensured the safety of the child without removing it from the custody of the parents.

Perhaps by putting the parents under house arrest while checks were made but that probably isn't part of the protocols used in cases like this.

tayto lover

Ace2007 wrote: »

Watch out - Tayto will think your playing the racist card with that comment...

I'm afraid that won't cover the low blow you gave earlier Ace.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

There was a child taken from a family near the border a few weeks ago -

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dayold-baby-taken-from-mother-in-hse-custody-until-monday-29615204.html

Child returned a week later when threat was removed (boyfriend).
Not far from where I live it seems.

Completely different case because there was a clear and identifiable threat and other actions had been taken previously due to this threat.

constance tench

Apparently the girl didn't eat for three days as she was so distressed

Vin B http://www.aertv.ie/#tv3

Curly Judge

Curly Judge wrote: »

I just hope that other "busybody neighbors" continue to phone the police anytime they see anything suspicious.

Yeah, like a kid who doesn't look much like their parents. Suspicious. Funny how none of the curtain twitchers were too bothered before the Maria story came out, eh?

tayto lover

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. That wasn't the result of a two hour initial investigation, was it?

Apparently they acted very quickly in that case too.

Nodin

Overdahill wrote: »

To be fair, that's the job. Many of us make officials decisions of all kinds on a daily basis. The key is systems, processes, clarity of thinking and remaining objective. Not sure that happened in this case.

Oh and I'm not having a go at to front end cops who did the deed. These decisions will ave been driven from further up, by someone who knee jerked because of fear of being damned if he/she didn't. Not the best basis for a decision.

Shameful indictment of our society.

It would be interesting to discover at what level it was driven.

I'm reminded through out this of the rounding up and questioning of a number of Iranian citizens here, in the wake of the September 11th attacks, something which has never been explained.

strandroad

tayto lover wrote: »

There was a child taken from a family near the border a few weeks ago -

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dayold-baby-taken-from-mother-in-hse-custody-until-monday-29615204.html

Child returned a week later when threat was removed (boyfriend).
Not far from where I live it seems.

That case took weeks if not months to unfold and the mother was aware of the proceedings. Not based on the appearance either (mother's partner was violent, she chose to remain with him).

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Completely different case because there was a clear and identifiable threat and other actions had been taken previously due to this threat.

Yes indeed. BUT many things are clear with hindsight.

Nodin

tayto lover wrote: »

Apparently they acted very quickly in that case too.

Because of previous investigations, the fact there was already a protection order on the child and so on.

Scortho

Deleted User wrote: »

That would be pretty annoying. In this case evidence was provided.
You should maybe use "black" rather than "coloured" these days btw. :pac:

I didnt want to use "black" as I felt someone might be offended by that more:o
Apologies to any poster who I offended.

Evidence was provided post the child being taken into care was it not. When hospital records were checked no child with those details popped up. However it then transpired that the maiden name of the mother was used which would have caused confusion.

In my opinion its better to have 100% proof that the child was theirs as opposed to it transpiring 10 years later that it wasn't.