Six-year-old Irish boy abducted by his father and brought to Egypt

Pug160 · 22-10-2013 03:20PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

500,000 of Egypt's 84,500,000 live in Asia. Are the other 84 million not African?

Most of Egypt is geographically in Africa but it has far more in common with its neighbours in the Middle East and is usually regarded as being part of the Middle East. It's certainly not one of the first countries that would spring to mind when thinking of Africa. I'm guessing you just wanted to nitpick because you didn't like my post.

Nodin · 22-10-2013 03:28PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Most of Egypt is geographically in Africa but it has far more in common with its neighbours in the Middle East and is usually regarded as being part of the Middle East. It's certainly not one of the first countries that would spring to mind when thinking of Africa. I'm guessing you just wanted to nitpick because you didn't like my post.

....there was a lot there not to like.

Amirani · 22-10-2013 03:41PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Most of Egypt is geographically in Africa but it has far more in common with its neighbours in the Middle East and is usually regarded as being part of the Middle East. It's certainly not one of the first countries that would spring to mind when thinking of Africa. I'm guessing you just wanted to nitpick because you didn't like my post.

Your post contained a large amount of racist drivel and well as quite a big geographical inaccuracy. I may have went without pointing out the geographical inaccuracy if you didn't resort to such tired and foolish stereotypes.

Pug160 · 22-10-2013 03:48PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Your post was a contained a large amount of racist drivel and well as quite a big geographical inaccuracy. I may have went without pointing out the geographical inaccuracy if you didn't resort to such tired and foolish stereotypes.

Ah, it was the old he sounds racist so he must be uneducated philosophy. Anybody thinking it was racist is jumping to conclusions. I said it because it's more than often true. What's the point skirting around issues?

Amirani · 22-10-2013 03:49PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Ah, it was the old he sounds racist so he must be uneducated philosophy. Anybody thinking it was racist is jumping to conclusions. I said it because it's more than often true. What's the point skirting around issues?

Any statistics whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Pug160 · 22-10-2013 03:56PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Any statistics whatsoever to back up your assertion?

Statistics probably only show the percentage of single mothers in total, they obviously wouldn't separate it by race or nationality. I've personally never known of a woman who has had a child with an African and the man has stayed. Stereotypes generally have an element of truth to them. No statistics as yet, just my eyes.

Carlos Orange · 22-10-2013 03:56PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Any statistics whatsoever to back up your assertion?

How true would it have to be before saying it wasn't racist?

guppy · 22-10-2013 04:01PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Statistics probably only show the percentage of single mothers in total, they obviously wouldn't separate it by race or nationality. I've personally never known of a woman who has had a child with an African and the man has stayed. Stereotypes generally have an element of truth to them. No statistics as yet, just my eyes.

I personally know of two couples, both mixed-race, who have been married years, and have children. And that's only from the group of parents of kids in my son's class.

Tigger · 22-10-2013 04:12PM

guppy wrote: »

I personally know of two couples, both mixed-race, who have been married years, and have children. And that's only from the group of parents of kids in my son's class.

are the fathers from africa?

Amirani · 22-10-2013 04:17PM

psinno wrote: »

How true would it have to be before saying it wasn't racist?

At least 95%, as with most hypothesis testing.

Amirani · 22-10-2013 04:19PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Stereotypes generally have an element of truth to them.

Since when? Do you have any statistics to back this up or are you like your previous point, just going to rely on hearsay?

Pug160 · 22-10-2013 04:43PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Since when? Do you have any statistics to back this up or are you like your previous point, just going to rely on hearsay?

I appreciate the usefulness of statistics but it's rather boring to parrot the same line over and over again. Statistics on sensitive issues are hard to find unless you do your own research. The Metropolitan Police released crime statistics on London a while back that showed a certain race committed much more crime proportionately than anyone else. But you guys see that linked with the Daily Mail and then claim it's propaganda, even though the actual statistics are from a legitimate source.

Just out of interest, that particular piece of research was also picked up by the Guardian newspaper. But it's just one example out of many.

22-10-2013 05:05PM

So far I have gathered from this thread:

1 - Couple has a kid, mother doesn't want fathers name on birth cert (Gee. I wonder why!).

2 - Man is extremely violent, apparently. Threatens to throw acid in the face of childs grandmother.

3 - Despite this, the mother sends the kid off to the dad's house for a 'routine sleepover' for two days.

From the above, the kid may just be better off with the Dad in Egypt.

Tigger · 22-10-2013 05:47PM

Pug160 wrote: »

I appreciate the usefulness of statistics but it's rather boring to parrot the same line over and over again. Statistics on sensitive issues are hard to find unless you do your own research. The Metropolitan Police released crime statistics on London a while back that showed a certain race committed much more crime proportionately than anyone else. But you guys see that linked with the Daily Mail and then claim it's propaganda, even though the actual statistics are from a legitimate source.

Just out of interest, that particular piece of research was also picked up by the Guardian newspaper. But it's just one example out of many.

it actually shows a certain race are caught more proportionately

Nodin · 22-10-2013 06:00PM

Pug160 wrote: »

I appreciate the usefulness of statistics but it's rather boring to parrot the same line over and over again. Statistics on sensitive issues are hard to find unless you do your own research. The Metropolitan Police released crime statistics on London a while back that showed a certain race committed much more crime proportionately than anyone else. But you guys see that linked with the Daily Mail and then claim it's propaganda, even though the actual statistics are from a legitimate source.

Just out of interest, that particular piece of research was also picked up by the Guardian newspaper. But it's just one example out of many.

To forget the whole race thing for a minute...."But hey that's what happens when you mix lust, low self esteem (sometimes) and have very little in common culturally."

What has "low self esteem" to do with anything?

clairefontaine · 22-10-2013 06:06PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What's the got to do with it?

He is an Irish citizen.

Actually, he is called Daniel Faris Heaney. In court he has been referred to as "Daniel".

Why would that even be relevant, anyway?

Do you actually have it as fact that the father did not share custody?

Given that the mother was delivering him to the father's apartment on a Monday evening for a routine visit, I don't think you have any reason to suggest the father did not already share custody or guardianship. The child stayed overnight with his father from time to time, like most children where the parents live apart.

this wasn't a case where the mother was depriving the father of his child, as he has done to her.

The Irish family courts have to take the majority of responsibility for this since they failed to see this was a high risk arrangement and did not put proper safeguard in place to support the custody agreement.

Cody Pomeray · 22-10-2013 07:07PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

The Irish family courts have to take the majority of responsibility for this since they failed to see this was a high risk arrangement and did not put proper safeguard in place

As far as I am aware, the arrangement re. custody was made privately, between the parents.

The family law courts cannot telepathically determine that a father is unfit, save where he is reported as being so.

Clearly, the mother had no concerns about the young boy's well being with his father. If she had, she would hardly have agreed to let him stay 'an extra night' on the father's request, when unbeknownst to her, the child was en route to Egypt.

On the facts, there is one person to blame for the abduction, and that is the father. The mother was clearly an accommodating woman who would share custody with her ex-partner.

But while there is only one person to blame for the abduction, it looks as though the state, in its inaction, shares culpability for not bringing it to an end, nor apparently taking any serious steps to reunite this boy with his mother.

clairefontaine · 22-10-2013 07:19PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

As far as I am aware, the arrangement re. custody was made privately, between the parents.

The family law courts cannot telepathically determine that a father is unfit, save where he is reported as being so.

Clearly, the mother had no concerns about the young boy's well being with his father. If she had, she would hardly have agreed to let him stay 'an extra night' on the father's request, when unbeknownst to her, the child was en route to Egypt.

On the facts, there is one person to blame for the abduction, and that is the father. The mother was clearly an accommodating woman who would share custody with her ex-partner.

But while there is only one person to blame for the abduction, it looks as though the state, in its inaction, shares culpability for not bringing it to an end, nor apparently taking any serious steps to reunite this boy with his mother.

What can the state actually do except petition for extradition?

Cody Pomeray · 22-10-2013 07:38PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

What can the state actually do except petition for extradition?

Lets compare this abductor to Michael Lynn, the rogue solicitor.

Michael Lynn only moved to Brazil in 2011. We have no bilateral treaty with Brazil, but Lynn was arrested after 2 years, and will be returned pending the extradition treaty.

This boy was abducted - an altogether more serious occurrence - in Summer 2009. Over 4 years have passed, and according to the mother, and according to the facts as they appear, very little has actually happened.

Imagine other parents looking in on this case, where their ex-/partner is a citizen of a country without which there is any extradition treaty, What is the message that parent should take? That if the other parent were so minded, s/he can remove the child from the Irish state, and Irish authorities do not care.

ZhaZha · 22-10-2013 08:34PM

Clearly a lot of you haven't read the facts of the case. This boy was abducted by his father, correct, however, his father is not on his birth-certificate therefore he has absolutely NO LEGAL RIGHTS to the child. The mother was trying to give the boy access to his dad, a graceful gesture, but she paid the price by doing this. Meanwhile, the father Amir Ismaeil and his brother Tamer Ismaeil have been charged with the horrific rape of a woman in Dublin in 2007. That is why they absconded with the boy, they were going to be convicted as the DNA evidence and CCTV was overwhelming. Secondly, the boy was dressed up as a little girl and smuggled through Dublin airport on his step sisters's passport. If Amir had legal rights to the child he would not have to do this. There is a warrant out for his arrest and his is on the priority list in Interpol for two reasons, child abduction and rape. For those of you who think it's ok for this man to do this just because he is the biological father you are completely ill informed and inaccurate. The man might as well have been me or you stealing this child. He has no rights to him. His brother Moustafa has been convicted of child abduction so even the courts agree this man and his brothers are responsible for child abduction. If he had rights to Faris he would not have been charged or on the Interpol wanted list. He is a dangerous man who is physically abusing this child and is now teaching him to dance with knives. If that happened here the child would be taken off him. Read the story before you comment.

Boombastic · 22-10-2013 08:40PM

....He has no rights to him....[/quote]

Who? His father?

Ace2007 · 22-10-2013 09:04PM

ZhaZha wrote: »

Read the story before you comment.

What story is this - a 100% factual story - like dancing with knives...

All I have said is the failure to not put his name on the birth cert could have escalated to the point we are at today. As you said he has no legal right - is this fair that a father of a child has no legal right - that if he wanted this he would either have to get the mother to agree to it or go to court. Is that fair in the 21st centaury that the father cannot have his name put on the birth cert unless the mother agrees?

Carlos Orange · 22-10-2013 09:04PM

ZhaZha wrote: »

Clearly a lot of you haven't read the facts of the case. This boy was abducted by his father, correct, however, his father is not on his birth-certificate therefore he has absolutely NO LEGAL RIGHTS to the child.

Being on the birth cert doesn't give a father any rights anyway.

ted1 · 22-10-2013 09:15PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

What story is this - a 100% factual story - like dancing with knives...

All I have said is the failure to not put his name on the birth cert could have escalated to the point we are at today. As you said he has no legal right - is this fair that a father of a child has no legal right - that if he wanted this he would either have to get the mother to agree to it or go to court. Is that fair in the 21st centaury that the father cannot have his name put on the birth cert unless the mother agrees?

Where in the article does it say anything about dancing with knifes, can someone point it out to me. Is being taught to dance with knifes dangerous? Surly its part of a ritual/ culture in many countries, and isn't actually dangerous.

As for having no rights , that's bull and shows the lack of respect certain Irish people have for fathers. We really do treat fathers as third class citizens

cerastes · 22-10-2013 09:23PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

That would be equally bad.

Nevertheless, because this is Ireland, and most of us are posting from Ireland or are Irish citizens, we have a special interest in how the State organizes its affairs, and especially, how it protects its own children.

I do not blame the State for the initial abduction. But clearly the fact that over four years have passed, and no progress has been made, and the mother is claiming that no meaningful consular assistance has been forthcoming, this is indicative of a problem.

It is more than indicative of a problem, it is indicative of a theme. We consistently fail Irish children. This must be one of the most consistent themes of the modern Irish state.

Someone said they departed through Belfast, the article suggests two other people left through Belfast later, No?
So the child was dressed up and brought through Dublin airport on a false passport, surely thats a problem? how was he dressed? head to toe? to PC to check? thats a problem I think.

inocybe wrote: »

The child was taken out on a different child's passport, that's a basic security failing on the part of this country. The father snuck out via Belfast, another failing. The uncle should be kept here in jail until the child is returned.

NiallSparky wrote: »

It is of course a concern. There's just not a lot of practical steps that can be taken to stop it.

It surely cant be difficult to have an agreement between Irish Republic and the UK that deals specifically with entry/exit of anyone, but in particular children to prevent trafficking and kidnapping, it seems this could be an EU wide thing?? can someone tell me this isnt already in place?

So if someone made off with my child, they could effectively depart the country through an international airport?? because thats what it seems

Pug160 · 22-10-2013 09:29PM

Nodin wrote: »

To forget the whole race thing for a minute...."But hey that's what happens when you mix lust, low self esteem (sometimes) and have very little in common culturally."

What has "low self esteem" to do with anything?

I can think of a few different examples. The first one is the Plain Jane type of girl who doesn't get a great deal of attention from men and then meets one of these well built, well dressed men who makes her feel special. Another example is these girls who make a conscious decision to meet a black guy for the sole purpose of having a mixed raced baby. Those girls obviously don't like their own image and want to get as far away from it as possible by having a child with someone as physically different from her as she can find. I should state that I'm not talking about girls who happen to just meet someone spontaneously and genuinely connect, although those cases are probably in the minority over here.

It seems pretty obvious to me that in order to have a decent relationship that will last you need to have stuff in common - not just superficial things. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a guy from Africa will more than likely have less in common with a girl than a native or someone closer to home in Europe. So what you have is either the man using the woman for various reasons or the woman using the man as a sperm donor. But it's hardly surprising when we live in a society full of complete airheads who look up to people like Cheryl Cole and also a society with a lot of self loathing and confusion.

This is my last post here as I don't want to hijack the thread with an irrelevant discussion.

Cody Pomeray · 22-10-2013 09:33PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

All I have said is the failure to not put his name on the birth cert could have escalated to the point we are at today.

But nobody is making that claim. The Uncle did not rely on that claim in court, and the facts show that the mother had willingly been handing the child over for visits with his father, and that while the child was being abducted, the mother had agreed over the telephone that the child could stay an extra night with his Dad. Is this the action of a woman who is preventing her ex partner from seeing his little boy?

No.

Do fathers tend to have problems getting custody and access to their kids via a court order, where that is even necessary? Absolutely Not.

cerastes wrote: »

So the child was dressed up and brought through Dublin airport on a false passport, surely thats a problem? how was he dressed? head to toe? to PC to check? thats a problem I think.

Even if the border security staff were negligent, that doesn't make them responsible for the abduction. Their role would amount to a dereliction of their duty of care, which notwithstanding its seriousness, is a 'passive' act of 'not' doing something. Secreting a child and carrying him away is an altogether more egregious offence, and whatever criticism is due to the border staff, the abduction remains the act of nobody except the father.

So I don't blame the state for the abduction, but I do accept that the border control may have been lacking, and the state also seems to have done very little to get this boy reunited with his mother, which is the greatest shame.

cerastes · 22-10-2013 09:57PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Even if the border security staff were negligent, that doesn't make them responsible for the abduction. Their role would amount to a dereliction of their duty of care, which notwithstanding its seriousness, is a 'passive' act of 'not' doing something. Secreting a child and carrying him away is an altogether more egregious offence, and whatever criticism is due to the border staff, the abduction remains the act of nobody except the father.

So I don't blame the state for the abduction, but I do accept that the border control may have been lacking, and the state also seems to have done very little to get this boy reunited with his mother, which is the greatest shame.

I see what you're saying, but given the seriousness of allowing a child holding an Irish passport, but equally any child from anywhere, being easily moved through an international airport and the consequences that entails for the child and the inability to get the child back, seems the whole crux, did the people on duty get fired? Im sure they didnt, they clearly didnt assist in kidnapping him but they didnt stop it, it seems a serious neglect that checking children passing through to ensure they aren't been taken isn't something thats carried out. It seems to be highlighted in recent events that people can move some of the most vulnerable and innocent and the authorities just say, well what can we do, oops.

Prevention is better than cure, there was more chance of him being returned to the mother here at the airport than for the State to try get him back afterwards, going by that link posted about Egypts family law and foreigners.

Im not sure what you mean secreting away someone being more serious,
I assume you mean if they were bundled away tied up and gagged, but the father has taken the child unlawfully, whether the kid was tied up, tricked or if it was done under duress seems irrelevant to me.

I can think of ways off the top of my head right now how this could be prevented, I am adamant that people need to checked coming in and out of any country to account for who is coming and going, freedom of movement is one thing but does that mean there is no security whatsoever? you could drive a bus full of children through the gaps in the flaws. Im not trying to sound emotive, it just seems ridiculous, every two bit (or so I thought) country I visited had some system of logging who had arrived and when they departed.

If kidnapping is no problem, no wonder trafficking is rampant

Nodin · 22-10-2013 10:14PM

Pug160 wrote: »

I can think of a few different examples. The first one is the Plain Jane type of girl who doesn't get a great deal of attention from men and then meets one of these well built, well dressed men who makes her feel special..

....because if theres one thing well built well dressed men do, its go for plain janes.

Pug160 wrote: »

Another example is these girls who make a conscious decision to meet a black guy for the sole purpose of having a mixed raced baby. Those girls obviously don't like their own image and want to get as far away from it as possible by having a child with someone as physically different from her as she can find..

*snicker

Ace2007 · 22-10-2013 10:24PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

But nobody is making that claim.

Can you please give a link to the father's side of the story?

Six-year-old Irish boy abducted by his father and brought to Egypt

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