Six-year-old Irish boy abducted by his father and brought to Egypt

KenSwee

I can't believe for one second that our government has absolutely no way of getting this boy back home. We are so spineless as a country and I'm embarrassed as an Irish national that we have let this family down.
His Uncle is doing six years for the kidnapping, he carries an Irish Passport and his mother is the only parent on his birth cert. Add to the fact that he is currently living in one of the most volatile countries in the world yet our government cries fowl on with the excuse that Egypt has not signed up for the Hauge convention.

What really pi**es me off is that if this was Madeleine McCann and she was found in a county like Egypt, do you think that for one second, the British Government would hide behind the Hauge Convention and say sorry, we can get her home?

If it was my child, and I was at this stage, I would do any means necessary to get him back.

Cody Pomeray

Good to see this case coming back into the media, the background to the story is quite horrific

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/family-seek-return-of-boy-abducted-to-egypt-1.1567512

The family of a six-year-old Irish boy who was abducted by his father have called on the Government to instigate an extradition treaty with Egypt to have the child returned to Ireland.

Faris Heeney was just two when his father, Amir Ismaeil, an Egyptian national who was working in Ireland, had his son smuggled out of the country on July 28th, 2009

Basically, the mother drops her 2 year old toddler over to the Dad's place for routine sleepover. She comes back 2 days later, as arranged, and her son has gone.

It emerges that the Uncle and the father have conspired to have the little boy removed to Egypt. The child was dressed up as a girl, carried off on his infant cousin's passport, and passed through security at Dublin airport. The taxi driver that drove the child and his uncle to the airport say the child was very agitated on the journey.

The mother was eventually allowed brief visits to her son in Egypt, and she has described having to walk away from him and come back to Ireland while he would cry, obviously, that his mother was leaving him.

It is important to note that this all transpired prior to the coup, when Egypt was a stable country with which we had diplomatic relations. Not only did the Government not seem to make any progress in signing any agreement with Egypt to bring this boy back home, the mother has told the Irish times they have been of very limited assistance to her in any form.

This is so wrong. There is an Irish child who we know has been abducted, deprived of his normal family life, and the state shows no apparent interest or motivation in bringing him home? Gardai even took in the father for questioning, before he went back to Egypt to re-unite with his son, but they brought no charges, and released him. How can we treat our own children in this way?

ted1

To be honest I'm not sure how I feel about this.

If a mother took her child away from the child father in Egypt. What would you think.

Can a parent abduct their own child?

Wacker The Attacker

It's how an Egyptian father treats his child.

Let's lay the blame where it should be laid

oppenheimer1

The government can be blamed for a lot of things, but its hardly the the one thats mostly in the wrong in this instance.

the groutch

title is a bit misleading, how is Ireland responsible for an Eygptian man's "kidnapping"?

somuj

the groutch wrote: »

title is a bit misleading, how is Ireland responsible for an Eygptian man's "kidnapping"?

Hard to kidnap your own kid without their being some previous kind of restrictive custody. If it was the other way round and the mother running off with the kid it would even be news worthy.

Lollipops23

I heard that the father isn't named on the child's birth cert, so I'd question whether he has guardianship rights over him?

Either way it's a scum baggy thing to do.

ted1

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Either way it's a scum baggy thing to do.

What is ? Its a hell of a lot better than the dead beat Dads that want nothing to do with their kids

Lollipops23

ted1 wrote: »

What is ? Its a hell of a lot better than the dead beat Dads that want nothing to do with their kids

I'm sure that's a great comfort to the mother.

I think abducting the kid and smuggling them out of the country against the wishes of the child's main carergiver (whether that's the mother or father) is wrong.

inocybe

Of course it is kidnap, and would still be if the parents were reversed. Most countries have laws to prevent this, including Ireland, which is why the child was smuggled out. Unfortunately Egypt doesn't. I hope someone helps to return him to his mother soon.

Cody Pomeray

ted1 wrote: »

To be honest I'm not sure how I feel about this.

If a mother took her child away from the child father in Egypt. What would you think.

That would be equally bad.

Nevertheless, because this is Ireland, and most of us are posting from Ireland or are Irish citizens, we have a special interest in how the State organizes its affairs, and especially, how it protects its own children.

I do not blame the State for the initial abduction. But clearly the fact that over four years have passed, and no progress has been made, and the mother is claiming that no meaningful consular assistance has been forthcoming, this is indicative of a problem.

It is more than indicative of a problem, it is indicative of a theme. We consistently fail Irish children. This must be one of the most consistent themes of the modern Irish state.

sok2005

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I heard that the father isn't named on the child's birth cert, so I'd question whether he has guardianship rights over him?

Either way it's a scum baggy thing to do.

What's the law regarding putting fathers names on birth certs?
I thought legally you had to if you knew who it was??

LizT

Threads merged

ted1

inocybe wrote: »

Of course it is kidnap, and would still be if the parents were reversed. Most countries have laws to prevent this, including Ireland, which is why the child was smuggled out. Unfortunately Egypt doesn't. I hope someone helps to return him to his mother soon.

In my family the reverse has happened except the mother ( a direct relation ) bought the kids home from a foreign country. No one has ever told her she shouldn't have done it. I think it was a great thing.
I don't see it as kidnap .

Amirani

KenSwee wrote: »

What really pi**es me off is that if this was Madeleine McCann and she was found in a county like Egypt, do you think that for one second, the British Government would hide behind the Hauge Convention and say sorry, we can get her home?

What are they going to do, go to war with Egypt? That didn't work out too well last time.

In reality there's very little the Irish Government can do here.

username_x

ted1 wrote: »

What is ? Its a hell of a lot better than the dead beat Dads that want nothing to do with their kids

I think I'd rather my child's father not in his life than:

1. Have him taken from me
2. Allowed to visit when money is needed by the father
3. Have him circumcised without my permission
4. Have him brought up as a Muslim against my wishes
5. Run the risk of him possibly forgetting his family in Ireland
6. Have my child using KNIVES as part of a tribal dance

It's a joke. The father ran because he was wanted for rape, had been violent towards the child's mother and threatened to throw acid in the child's grandmothers face. There is no way the child is in safe hands, what's to say he's not being tortured by his father, or at least running the risk of it where his mother cannot get to him?

I'd rather a dead beat dad anyday of the week.

clairefontaine

Ok a few things here.

One, as a western woman, if you want to be sure wont happen, don't reproduce with people from non Hague convention countries. You have no security with it. Givn the rates of divorce and is single parenting, the odds are high enough that not breeding with people from nations where mothers have no rights is a no brainer.

Second thing. I have passed several times through irish airports with my Little one and never even been asked to show his passport.

Third thing, I have travelled with my little one extensively and have never been asked to show a sole custodial order or permission to travel.

Fourth thing, travelling by boat around Europa is far too easy without documentation.

All of this makes kidnapping very easy.

Why this custody arrangement was not treated as high risk for abduction is being me. It had all the classic hallmarks of one.

wil

It is illegal to take a child out of the state without permission of the other parent. Especially relevant to non-EU parents from countries which haven't signed the Hague convention.

The offence of international child abduction

"It is an offence for a parent or guardian* to take or send a child under 16 years out of the State in defiance of a Court order or without the consent of the other parent, if that parent is a guardian. This also applies where a parent has applied to the court for guardianship but the case has not yet been heard."

clairefontaine

wil wrote: »

It is illegal to take a child out of the state without permission of the other parent. Especially relevant to non-EU parents from countries which haven't signed the Hague convention.

The offence of international child abduction

"It is an offence for a parent or guardian* to take or send a child under 16 years out of the State in defiance of a Court order or without the consent of the other parent, if that parent is a guardian. This also applies where a parent has applied to the court for guardianship but the case has not yet been heard."

What can they do about it?

Ireland will never get that child back.

discus

username_x wrote: »

I think I'd rather my child's father not in his life than:

1. Have him taken from me
2. Allowed to visit when money is needed by the father
3. Have him circumcised without my permission
4. Have him brought up as a Muslim against my wishes
5. Run the risk of him possibly forgetting his family in Ireland
6. Have my child using KNIVES as part of a tribal dance

Meanwhile in Ireland, men have their children taken from them, only get to see their child when they pay maintenance, women can bring up their child in any religion without their fathers consent, they can ostricise the father completely...

And family courts tried in camera?

ted1

username_x wrote: »

I think I'd rather my child's father not in his life than:

1. Have him taken from me
2. Allowed to visit when money is needed by the father
3. Have him circumcised without my permission
4. Have him brought up as a Muslim against my wishes
5. Run the risk of him possibly forgetting his family in Ireland
6. Have my child using KNIVES as part of a tribal dance

It's a joke. The father ran because he was wanted for rape, had been violent towards the child's mother and threatened to throw acid in the child's grandmothers face. There is no way the child is in safe hands, what's to say he's not being tortured by his father, or at least running the risk of it where his mother cannot get to him?

I'd rather a dead beat dad anyday of the week.

None of that is in the article linked.

As for bringing him up Muslim well that's not relevant as he could say the same about the mother brining him up Christian .

EmptyTree

clairefontaine wrote: »

One, as a western woman, if you want to be sure wont happen, don't reproduce with people from non Hague convention countries.

Isn't that what all women dream off? Meeting a man from a country signed up to the Hague convention...:rolleyes:

dxhound2005

KenSwee wrote: »

I can't believe for one second that our government has absolutely no way of getting this boy back home. We are so spineless as a country and I'm embarrassed as an Irish national that we have let this family down.
His Uncle is doing six years for the kidnapping, he carries an Irish Passport and his mother is the only parent on his birth cert. Add to the fact that he is currently living in one of the most volatile countries in the world yet our government cries fowl on with the excuse that Egypt has not signed up for the Hauge convention.

What really pi**es me off is that if this was Madeleine McCann and she was found in a county like Egypt, do you think that for one second, the British Government would hide behind the Hauge Convention and say sorry, we can get her home?

If it was my child, and I was at this stage, I would do any means necessary to get him back.

This is nearly as good as the post wanting Ireland to force China to change their one child policy.

ted1

EmptyTree wrote: »

Isn't that what all women dream off? Meeting a man from a country signed up to the Hague convention...:rolleyes:

I'm sure match.com have that as an tick box option for people looking to go e-dating

inocybe

Earlier this year... I guess the UK was as powerless as Ireland

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/variety/2013/08/05/-Jane-Bond-to-the-rescue-in-Arab-kidnapping-case.html

dxhound2005

EmptyTree wrote: »

Isn't that what all women dream off? Meeting a man from a country signed up to the Hague convention...:rolleyes:

Nonetheless it should be noted that no Middle Eastern (except Israel) or North African countries are signatories.

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.authorities&cid=24#U

wil

clairefontaine wrote: »

What can they do about it?

Ireland will never get that child back.

Not much I guess, hence the relevance of the Hague convention countries where they can do something.
Not sure what the Dept of Foreign affairs can do except enquire.
Mind you given the current state of Egypt, not sure what could work other than subterfuge, local connections and money. Pretty much the same method by which he was abducted in the first place but with a lot more risk.
I know someone who lived with the threat of child abduction by the father for several years but the children are now adults.

username_x

discus wrote: »

Meanwhile in Ireland, men have their children taken from them, only get to see their child when they pay maintenance, women can bring up their child in any religion without their fathers consent, they can ostricise the father completely...

And family courts tried in camera?

I'm not disagreeing with that. However, if this all happened in Ireland a father can fight his place in court, say he wants access and if he is deemed fit then he will get access. It would be the same if the father was granted total custody over his child, a mother would be expected to fight for access.

Kidnapping and access are two totally different things. I was arguing with the "dead beat dad" comment.

Ace2007

username_x wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with that. However, if this all happened in Ireland a father can fight his place in court, say he wants access and if he is deemed fit then he will get access. It would be the same if the father was granted total custody over his child, a mother would be expected to fight for access.

Kidnapping and access are two totally different things. I was arguing with the "dead beat dad" comment.

Why wasn't the father's name put on the birth cert?

What ever about the case, no mother should have the right to exclude the father from the birth cert - for all we know this could have been the source of arguments for months and led to the current situation.

leo2a6

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

We consistently fail Irish children.

By the way, the kid is also Egyptian.

And he is called Faris not an irish name, I dont support the father but understand his position, if divorced fathers had more rights on their children, such things would not happen...

EmptyTree

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Nonetheless it should be noted that no Middle Eastern (except Israel) or North African countries are signatories.

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.authorities&cid=24#U

So steer clear of all males from all North African and Middle Eastern countries (except Israel) in case they turn out to be a child abducting maniac?? Because the actions of one man clearly represents what all men from this part of the world will do when the relationship breaks down and children are involved.

clairefontaine

If you have a child with a foreigner you would be a fool not to consider the laws of that land. Absolutely stupid.

leo2a6

username_x wrote: »

6. Have my child using KNIVES as part of a tribal dance

Ignorance and bigotry are often good friends...

inocybe

The child was taken out on a different child's passport, that's a basic security failing on the part of this country. The father snuck out via Belfast, another failing. The uncle should be kept here in jail until the child is returned.

Ace2007

inocybe wrote: »

The uncle should be kept here in jail until the child is returned.

Why go and make idiotic statements?

dxhound2005

inocybe wrote: »

The child was taken out on a different child's passport, that's a basic security failing on the part of this country. The father snuck out via Belfast, another failing. The uncle should be kept here in jail until the child is returned.

If it was out of Belfast there is no security failing on the part of this country. And it would not be legal to hold someone in prison in the way you suggest.

EmptyTree

clairefontaine wrote: »

If you have a child with a foreigner you would be a fool not to consider the laws of that land. Absolutely stupid.

That’s a fair few women to be calling stupid I’d imagine…..


A fair few, happy in a committed relationship / amicably separated, people…..


So you propose the conversation goes “you’re the love of my life, I’ve never met anyone like you, I am so happy when I am with you, I want you to be the father of my children, but I was down the library today, reading up on international law (as you do) and turns out bit of a tricky legal situation between our two countries….”

inocybe

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If it was out of Belfast there is no security failing on the part of this country. And it would not be legal to hold someone in prison in the way you suggest.

You're right, suspects sneaking out over the border is no concern of the Irish police.
wishful thinking about the uncle...

Amirani

inocybe wrote: »

You're right, suspects sneaking out over the border is no concern of the Irish police.

It is of course a concern. There's just not a lot of practical steps that can be taken to stop it.

Mech1

Its simple enough, just takes a bit of planning, you go kidnap him back. Its been done before. No Official gov help.

leo2a6

at least the guy let the mother see her son...

clairefontaine

EmptyTree wrote: »

That’s a fair few women to be calling stupid I’d imagine…..


A fair few, happy in a committed relationship / amicably separated, people…..


So you propose the conversation goes “you’re the love of my life, I’ve never met anyone like you, I am so happy when I am with you, I want you to be the father of my children, but I was down the library today, reading up on international law (as you do) and turns out bit of a tricky legal situation between our two countries….”

Yes I would call them stupid too.

andala

There's hardly anything the Irish government or the mother can do. According to the Egyptian law, the father had all the right to get his child back. The mother, as she is not an Egyptian national, stands no chance in Egyptian court if she wants to get the custody.
An interesting read about family law in Egypt and children abducted by Egyptian citizens.

EmptyTree

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yes I would call them stupid too.

That's a bit like saying "a swimmer once drowned, therefore, anyone who goes near water is an idiot".

Perhaps the best thing to do is not to reproduce with any men in the first place, better safe then sorry and all that.

clairefontaine

EmptyTree wrote: »

That's a bit like saying "a swimmer once drowned, therefore, anyone who goes near water is an idiot".

Perhaps the best thing to do is not to reproduce with any men in the first place, better safe then sorry and all that.

Hey. She picked him.

EmptyTree

clairefontaine wrote: »

Hey. She picked him.

Indeed, pity she didn't have the same foresight you do.....

tritium

KenSwee wrote: »

What really pi**es me off is that if this was Madeleine McCann and she was found in a county like Egypt, do you think that for one second, the British Government would hide behind the Hauge Convention and say sorry, we can get her home?

Because this is so like the Madeline McCann case,........

clairefontaine

EmptyTree wrote: »

Indeed, pity she didn't have the same foresight you do.....

I'm only pointing out her share of accountability here.

Obviously whomever came up with the custody arrangement is the most to blame.

Some accountability on passport control too.

EmptyTree

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm only pointing out her share of accountability here.

I don't think she can be in any way held responsible for his actions.



To be fair, I do see where you are coming from, however, I don’t think it’s reasonable to call all women who have children with men from non-Hague convention countries “stupid”

Ace2007

EmptyTree wrote: »

I don't think she can be in any way held responsible for his actions.

Well she didn't put his name of the birth cert, that could be a reason why we are where we are today.