Does chivalry still have a place in modern society?

Cathy.C · 22-10-2013 08:06PM #1

Last week there was quite a bit of debate in UK's media after Lib Dem MP, Jo Swinson, who is seven months pregnant, was seen to be standing throughout Prime Minister's Questions in the House of Commons. Many argued that she should have been offered a seat by one of the hundreds of MPs sitting on the benches but her aides suggest that it would have been sexist had any of them done so.

Jo Swinson: Pregnant MP forced to stand in Commons - but offering seat would have been 'sexist'

Men who give up their seats for pregnant women are sexist, allies of Equalities Minister Jo Swinson claimed yesterday.

Onlookers were alarmed to see the heavily pregnant Liberal Democrat standing through Prime Minister's Questions as hundreds of MPs filled the Commons benches nearby.

But a source close to the minister spoke out and said: "The suggestion somehow that people should be outraged on her behalf is ridiculous.

"The idea that just because she is seven months pregnant she has lost all ability to stand on her two feet or fend for herself is quite sexist. She did not think it was an issue.

"She's absolutely confident enough, as a woman minister, to ask for a seat. There was no issue."

But David Cameron's official spokesman thought otherwise and indicated he believed men should give up their seats for pregnant women.

He said: "I think if you see someone in any walk of life in greater need of a seat, there are many reasons why that might be the case, I think it is understandable and a good thing to do." Ms Swinson, 33, was 10 minutes late for the 30-minute debate on Wednesday and stood at the back.

The source added: "She wasn't visible to the majority of MPs who had their backs to her. She also knew she had to leave early because she had another event to go to."

Ms Swinson, who champions women's rights, is due to give birth on Christmas Day. She earlier told how she had discussed how to "share the parenting" with her husband, fellow Lib Dem MP Duncan Hames.

Would be interested in knowing was she offered a seat or did she even want a seat? Or perhaps, from knowing her, did her fellow MPs know that an offer of a seat would be met by her with a frosty reception? Who's to know and can't help but thinking that all comments released by her and her aides since, have been spin dried and really just PR at this stage. Same goes for her fellow MPs and Cameron.

Some comments from other sources though have surprised me, especially those made in the following vain:

Should MPs have stood up for Jo Swinson?

Nobody likes to be patronised, and the age of chivalry – which promotes the myth of feminine weakness – is thankfully dead.

The above is news to me as, while I don't expect or feel in anyway entitled to it, I regularly experience acts of chivalry from time to time and am always appreciative of them when I do. If I was seven months pregnant and a guy offered me his seat, I would by no means feel he was being sexist, let alone patronising me. I would just feel that it was a nice gesture.

Don't get me wrong though, I feel us women should pull our weight when we can and when I did bar work for three years in Berlin, I rolled up my metaphorical sleeves and mucked in just as much as the boys. To me though, this is much different and to be honest, I see chivalry in men as virtuous and feel it should without question still have it's place in society. From the mixed messages that men must get though, such as cries of sexism in response to such acts of chivalry like this one, it is hardly surprising that that virtue is now a dying one.

How do others feel. Does chivalry still have a place in modern society?

Sh1tbag OToole · 22-10-2013 08:14PM

Chivalry definitely has its place. Feck modern society, plenty of things wrong with it that were'nt wrong with society "back in the day"

All lads should be tought good manners like holding the door open for a lady and going on top during the first sex session with her. Being afraid to do the gentlemanly thing incase it's sexist is a real 'PC gone mad' thing

Tasden · 22-10-2013 08:14PM

Honestly I wouldn't have thought its about chivalry or sexism, just good manners- if someone has an ailment or appears to have a physical issue that would lead you to believe they may need to sit instead of stand you should offer them a seat. Carrying a human inside you is tough, it makes you tired, nothing to do with her being a woman per se. Mountain out of a molehill.

wexie · 22-10-2013 08:16PM

Nobody likes to be patronised, and the age of chivalry – which promotes the myth of feminine weakness – is thankfully dead.

No it bloody doesn't! It promotes .....not even sure what it promotes. But it's nothing to do with feminine weakness, it's respect, courtesy....whatever.

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?

:rolleyes:

P.C. bloody lunacy's gotta stop, nothing wrong with good old fashioned values like chivalry

:mad::mad:

AnonoBoy · 22-10-2013 08:18PM

Good manners cost nothing.

I'll hold a door open for a lady but I'll do it for dudes too.

Sunnyisland · 22-10-2013 08:19PM

Cost us people nothing to be nice & respectfully to one another, it also helps improves one humour for the day.

Karl Stein · 22-10-2013 08:23PM

When I'm on the bus I pick out a woman who's very obviously not the eldest on the bus and say 'AH JAYSUS WOULD YA LIKE A SEAT MISSUS? A WOMAN OF YOUR AGE DESERVES A REST'.

Jarrod · 22-10-2013 08:23PM

She was 10 minutes late to a 30 minute meeting and had to leave early anyway. She can't have been standing for too long.

Stojkovic · 22-10-2013 08:28PM

It probably ended when women stopped saying thanks when you hold the door open. Or simple smile would even suffice.

Same when you let them out/in when driving. No etiquette. I never let them out/in whening driving. Same as taxi drivers and white vans. Feck them.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-10-2013 08:28PM

I don't move on the dart or tube etc. unless an obvious octogenarian gets on. And you don't see many 80+ year olds on rush hour public transport, bless em.

You might get away with getting my seat if you are 8 months pregnant. Visibly. And not too many late trimesters take public transport. Bless em.

Otherwise I am in danger of mistaking the not so old for the old, the obese for the pregnant, or the feminist for the normal.

And yes. I have been burnt.

So keep standing girls. Behind every successful modern business woman is a man, sitting on his dart seat. Guiltlessly.

MadYaker · 22-10-2013 08:31PM

I love Chivalry, great game!

Frank Lee Midere · 22-10-2013 08:31PM

Stojkovic wrote: »

It probably ended when women stopped saying thanks when you hold the door open. Or simple smile would even suffice.

Same when you let them out/in when driving. No etiquette. I never let them out/in whening driving. Same as taxi drivers and white vans. Feck them.

Yes! Women never acknowledge being let out. I do it for men only now.

With doors I do it for all sexes so that's moot.

Legs.Eleven · 22-10-2013 08:32PM

Men who give up their seats for pregnant women are sexist, allies of Equalities Minister Jo Swinson claimed yesterday.

3 points:

1) It's the Mirror and anything it prints is garbage.

2) Allies of Jo Swinson? Who the fook are these people? Jo didn't comment on this, mysterious (probably invented) "allies" of Joe did.

3) Men and women should offer a seat to pregnant woman out of manners, particularly a heavily pregnant woman. It's up to them if they want to accept it or not.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-10-2013 08:33PM

Magaggie wrote: »

What sort of idiot would think giving up a seat for a seven-months pregnant woman is sexist? Apart from only women being able to be pregnant, how does gender even come into it?

Chivalry would be helping a woman carry a bunch of heavy bags or giving up a seat for her, which is just being nice. It might come from a traditional place, but so what? It's completely well intentioned.

It's giving up the seat for the woman who is visibly 7 months obese. That's the problem.

Shakespeare's Sister · 22-10-2013 08:33PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yes! Women never acknowledge being let out. I do it for men only now.

I know women are unfortunately quite significantly less likely to acknowledge, but it's kinda silly to assume none of us would.

MadsL · 22-10-2013 08:40PM

I'd make a comment, but perhaps the ladies of the forum would like to go first.

UCDVet · 22-10-2013 08:44PM

Chivalry is incredibly sexist.

I'm willing to treat women like the fairer sex.
I'm also willing to treat women like equals.

But I can't do both. And I refuse to do some P.C. crap where, when it suits, I pretend women are equal, except when society says it's okay to say they aren't and then treat them better....

I tried the equality thing but most women didn't like it and most men felt like I was a dick for it. Around 19-20 years of age I decided to ignore what my parents had taught me and start treating women differently. It worked out a lot better.

Mickey H · 22-10-2013 08:51PM

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Chivalry definitely has its place. Feck modern society, plenty of things wrong with it that were'nt wrong with society "back in the day"

All lads should be tought good manners like holding the door open for a lady and going on top during the first sex session with her. Being afraid to do the gentlemanly thing incase it's sexist is a real 'PC gone mad' thing

How does that work down an alleyway at 3 AM outside Coppers?

Sh1tbag OToole · 22-10-2013 08:55PM

Mickey H wrote: »

How does that work down an alleyway at 3 AM outside Coppers?

You will have to find a skip first to pull an old matress out of

Ace Attorney · 22-10-2013 08:58PM

its just manners, noting to do with women being weaker or anything, that sounds like some sort of femnazi nonsense, I hold the door open for both genders

BeerSteakBirds · 22-10-2013 08:58PM

its got feck all to do with chivalry which is an outmoded double standard which expects certain ''rewards' for the gentleman. This is something else and its highly defensive and displays insecurities from women who have a problem with being offered a seat. Only last week I held a door open for another bloke who was on crutches and later gave him a seat. There was no ulterior motive except to make the world a better place. The end.

Pushtrak · 22-10-2013 10:41PM

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

its got feck all to do with chivalry which is an outmoded double standard which expects certain ''rewards' for the gentleman.

All I can do is shake my head, honestly.

April O Neill · 22-10-2013 10:51PM

Preventing a heavily pregnant woman from standing for long periods isn't a chivalry issue, it's a common sense one.

Chivalry in general I find vaguely patronising.

April O Neill · 22-10-2013 10:55PM

wexie wrote: »

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

I like the door being held for me by either sex, and like to hold it open for either sex. Sometimes it makes sense for me to hold the door, sometimes it makes sense of the other person to.

Don't like the seat moving thing, pointless and patronising. It makes me uncomfortable.

Sometimes my BF helps me carry stuff but that's only because I am particularly noodle-armed.

wexie wrote: »

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?

I'm not.

Precious flower · 22-10-2013 11:02PM

Had two men hold the door open for me in college today and let me go ahead of them! Personally I love when men do that!

Puts a smile on my face and don't worry I always made sure to say thank you! I think when you give up your seat or go out of your way to help an elderly person or pregnant person they can either refuse or say they would like help, it's not like you're forcing your help on them and they have zero say. I hold doors open for men and women, just manners.

Dravokivich · 22-10-2013 11:02PM

Short answer;
Yes

Long Answer;
Because it's not about how you treat a woman.

thegreatgonzo · 22-10-2013 11:03PM

wexie wrote: »

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?

I have birkenstocks. Not wearing them right now. But I really appreciate good manners from men or women. Incidentally I have often held doors open for men.

Amirani · 22-10-2013 11:06PM

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

All lads should be tought good manners like holding the door open for a lady and going on top during the first sex session with her.

Good manners is holding a door open for anybody, regardless of what they have between their legs.

As regards the sex comment, are you serious? Complete rubbish.

thegreatgonzo · 22-10-2013 11:07PM

UCDVet wrote: »

Chivalry is incredibly sexist.

I tried the equality thing but most women didn't like it and most men felt like I was a dick for it. Around 19-20 years of age I decided to ignore what my parents had taught me and start treating women differently. It worked out a lot better.

I'm confused....what do you do differently?

Donaldio · 22-10-2013 11:11PM

No because the we do not live in a medieval soceity ! What the **** there are knights in Ireland 2013 ? I should grab my armour and my horse i suppose ?

Stheno · 22-10-2013 11:14PM

Tasden wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't have thought its about chivalry or sexism, just good manners- if someone has an ailment or appears to have a physical issue that would lead you to believe they may need to sit instead of stand you should offer them a seat. Carrying a human inside you is tough, it makes you tired, nothing to do with her being a woman per se. Mountain out of a molehill.

I agree a few years ago I was using public transport on crutches and you'd swear the crutches didn't exist, very few people gave a seat up and I'd be standing trying to balance on the crutches and occasionally falling!

wexie wrote: »

No it bloody doesn't! It promotes .....not even sure what it promotes. But it's nothing to do with feminine weakness, it's respect, courtesy....whatever.

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?

:rolleyes:

P.C. bloody lunacy's gotta stop, nothing wrong with good old fashioned values like chivalry

:mad::mad:

I like having a door opened for me and equally if it's double doors to keep the second door open for the person behind me. Yesterday I'd a heavy briefcase, and a large box which I was struggling with and the female receptionist in the hotel I was in insisted she get me help

I own neither dungarees or birkenstocks

Magaggie wrote: »

I know women are unfortunately quite significantly less likely to acknowledge, but it's kinda silly to assume none of us would.

Exactly, small displays of good manners deserve a thank you at the very very least.

I remember once carrying a server (not a small object) into a building. Four blokes in front of me (not IT people so I didn't expect they'd offer to carry it) went into the building just in front of me, and the door slammed in my face.

Wouldn't have taken much in terms of manners to wait a couple of seconds to let me through.

Does chivalry still have a place in modern society?

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