Does chivalry still have a place in modern society?

Cathy.C

Last week there was quite a bit of debate in UK's media after Lib Dem MP, Jo Swinson, who is seven months pregnant, was seen to be standing throughout Prime Minister's Questions in the House of Commons. Many argued that she should have been offered a seat by one of the hundreds of MPs sitting on the benches but her aides suggest that it would have been sexist had any of them done so.

Jo Swinson: Pregnant MP forced to stand in Commons - but offering seat would have been 'sexist'

Men who give up their seats for pregnant women are sexist, allies of Equalities Minister Jo Swinson claimed yesterday.

Onlookers were alarmed to see the heavily pregnant Liberal Democrat standing through Prime Minister's Questions as hundreds of MPs filled the Commons benches nearby.

But a source close to the minister spoke out and said: "The suggestion somehow that people should be outraged on her behalf is ridiculous.

"The idea that just because she is seven months pregnant she has lost all ability to stand on her two feet or fend for herself is quite sexist. She did not think it was an issue.

"She's absolutely confident enough, as a woman minister, to ask for a seat. There was no issue."

But David Cameron's official spokesman thought otherwise and indicated he believed men should give up their seats for pregnant women.

He said: "I think if you see someone in any walk of life in greater need of a seat, there are many reasons why that might be the case, I think it is understandable and a good thing to do." Ms Swinson, 33, was 10 minutes late for the 30-minute debate on Wednesday and stood at the back.

The source added: "She wasn't visible to the majority of MPs who had their backs to her. She also knew she had to leave early because she had another event to go to."

Ms Swinson, who champions women's rights, is due to give birth on Christmas Day. She earlier told how she had discussed how to "share the parenting" with her husband, fellow Lib Dem MP Duncan Hames.

Would be interested in knowing was she offered a seat or did she even want a seat? Or perhaps, from knowing her, did her fellow MPs know that an offer of a seat would be met by her with a frosty reception? Who's to know and can't help but thinking that all comments released by her and her aides since, have been spin dried and really just PR at this stage. Same goes for her fellow MPs and Cameron.

Some comments from other sources though have surprised me, especially those made in the following vain:

Should MPs have stood up for Jo Swinson?

Nobody likes to be patronised, and the age of chivalry – which promotes the myth of feminine weakness – is thankfully dead.

The above is news to me as, while I don't expect or feel in anyway entitled to it, I regularly experience acts of chivalry from time to time and am always appreciative of them when I do. If I was seven months pregnant and a guy offered me his seat, I would by no means feel he was being sexist, let alone patronising me. I would just feel that it was a nice gesture.

Don't get me wrong though, I feel us women should pull our weight when we can and when I did bar work for three years in Berlin, I rolled up my metaphorical sleeves and mucked in just as much as the boys. To me though, this is much different and to be honest, I see chivalry in men as virtuous and feel it should without question still have it's place in society. From the mixed messages that men must get though, such as cries of sexism in response to such acts of chivalry like this one, it is hardly surprising that that virtue is now a dying one.

How do others feel. Does chivalry still have a place in modern society?

Sh1tbag OToole

Chivalry definitely has its place. Feck modern society, plenty of things wrong with it that were'nt wrong with society "back in the day"

All lads should be tought good manners like holding the door open for a lady and going on top during the first sex session with her. Being afraid to do the gentlemanly thing incase it's sexist is a real 'PC gone mad' thing

Tasden

Honestly I wouldn't have thought its about chivalry or sexism, just good manners- if someone has an ailment or appears to have a physical issue that would lead you to believe they may need to sit instead of stand you should offer them a seat. Carrying a human inside you is tough, it makes you tired, nothing to do with her being a woman per se. Mountain out of a molehill.

wexie

Nobody likes to be patronised, and the age of chivalry – which promotes the myth of feminine weakness – is thankfully dead.

No it bloody doesn't! It promotes .....not even sure what it promotes. But it's nothing to do with feminine weakness, it's respect, courtesy....whatever.

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?


:rolleyes:

P.C. bloody lunacy's gotta stop, nothing wrong with good old fashioned values like chivalry

:mad::mad:

AnonoBoy

Good manners cost nothing.

I'll hold a door open for a lady but I'll do it for dudes too.

Sunnyisland

Cost us people nothing to be nice & respectfully to one another, it also helps improves one humour for the day.

Karl Stein

When I'm on the bus I pick out a woman who's very obviously not the eldest on the bus and say 'AH JAYSUS WOULD YA LIKE A SEAT MISSUS? A WOMAN OF YOUR AGE DESERVES A REST'.

Jarrod

She was 10 minutes late to a 30 minute meeting and had to leave early anyway. She can't have been standing for too long.

Stojkovic

It probably ended when women stopped saying thanks when you hold the door open. Or simple smile would even suffice.

Same when you let them out/in when driving. No etiquette. I never let them out/in whening driving. Same as taxi drivers and white vans. Feck them.

Frank Lee Midere

I don't move on the dart or tube etc. unless an obvious octogenarian gets on. And you don't see many 80+ year olds on rush hour public transport, bless em.

You might get away with getting my seat if you are 8 months pregnant. Visibly. And not too many late trimesters take public transport. Bless em.

Otherwise I am in danger of mistaking the not so old for the old, the obese for the pregnant, or the feminist for the normal.

And yes. I have been burnt.

So keep standing girls. Behind every successful modern business woman is a man, sitting on his dart seat. Guiltlessly.

MadYaker

I love Chivalry, great game!

Frank Lee Midere

Stojkovic wrote: »

It probably ended when women stopped saying thanks when you hold the door open. Or simple smile would even suffice.

Same when you let them out/in when driving. No etiquette. I never let them out/in whening driving. Same as taxi drivers and white vans. Feck them.

Yes! Women never acknowledge being let out. I do it for men only now.

With doors I do it for all sexes so that's moot.

Legs.Eleven

Men who give up their seats for pregnant women are sexist, allies of Equalities Minister Jo Swinson claimed yesterday.

3 points:


1) It's the Mirror and anything it prints is garbage.


2) Allies of Jo Swinson? Who the fook are these people? Jo didn't comment on this, mysterious (probably invented) "allies" of Joe did.

3) Men and women should offer a seat to pregnant woman out of manners, particularly a heavily pregnant woman. It's up to them if they want to accept it or not.

Frank Lee Midere

Magaggie wrote: »

What sort of idiot would think giving up a seat for a seven-months pregnant woman is sexist? Apart from only women being able to be pregnant, how does gender even come into it?

Chivalry would be helping a woman carry a bunch of heavy bags or giving up a seat for her, which is just being nice. It might come from a traditional place, but so what? It's completely well intentioned.

It's giving up the seat for the woman who is visibly 7 months obese. That's the problem.

Shakespeare's Sister

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yes! Women never acknowledge being let out. I do it for men only now.

I know women are unfortunately quite significantly less likely to acknowledge, but it's kinda silly to assume none of us would.

MadsL

I'd make a comment, but perhaps the ladies of the forum would like to go first.

UCDVet

Chivalry is incredibly sexist.

I'm willing to treat women like the fairer sex.
I'm also willing to treat women like equals.

But I can't do both. And I refuse to do some P.C. crap where, when it suits, I pretend women are equal, except when society says it's okay to say they aren't and then treat them better....

I tried the equality thing but most women didn't like it and most men felt like I was a dick for it. Around 19-20 years of age I decided to ignore what my parents had taught me and start treating women differently. It worked out a lot better.

Mickey H

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Chivalry definitely has its place. Feck modern society, plenty of things wrong with it that were'nt wrong with society "back in the day"

All lads should be tought good manners like holding the door open for a lady and going on top during the first sex session with her. Being afraid to do the gentlemanly thing incase it's sexist is a real 'PC gone mad' thing

How does that work down an alleyway at 3 AM outside Coppers?

Sh1tbag OToole

Mickey H wrote: »

How does that work down an alleyway at 3 AM outside Coppers?

You will have to find a skip first to pull an old matress out of

Ace Attorney

its just manners, noting to do with women being weaker or anything, that sounds like some sort of femnazi nonsense, I hold the door open for both genders

BeerSteakBirds

its got feck all to do with chivalry which is an outmoded double standard which expects certain ''rewards' for the gentleman. This is something else and its highly defensive and displays insecurities from women who have a problem with being offered a seat. Only last week I held a door open for another bloke who was on crutches and later gave him a seat. There was no ulterior motive except to make the world a better place. The end.

Pushtrak

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

its got feck all to do with chivalry which is an outmoded double standard which expects certain ''rewards' for the gentleman.

All I can do is shake my head, honestly.

April O Neill

Preventing a heavily pregnant woman from standing for long periods isn't a chivalry issue, it's a common sense one.

Chivalry in general I find vaguely patronising.

April O Neill

wexie wrote: »

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

I like the door being held for me by either sex, and like to hold it open for either sex. Sometimes it makes sense for me to hold the door, sometimes it makes sense of the other person to.

Don't like the seat moving thing, pointless and patronising. It makes me uncomfortable.

Sometimes my BF helps me carry stuff but that's only because I am particularly noodle-armed.

wexie wrote: »

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?

I'm not.

Precious flower

Had two men hold the door open for me in college today and let me go ahead of them! Personally I love when men do that! Puts a smile on my face and don't worry I always made sure to say thank you! I think when you give up your seat or go out of your way to help an elderly person or pregnant person they can either refuse or say they would like help, it's not like you're forcing your help on them and they have zero say. I hold doors open for men and women, just manners.

Dravokivich

Short answer;
Yes

Long Answer;
Because it's not about how you treat a woman.

thegreatgonzo

wexie wrote: »

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?

I have birkenstocks. Not wearing them right now. But I really appreciate good manners from men or women. Incidentally I have often held doors open for men.

Amirani

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

All lads should be tought good manners like holding the door open for a lady and going on top during the first sex session with her.

Good manners is holding a door open for anybody, regardless of what they have between their legs.

As regards the sex comment, are you serious? Complete rubbish.

thegreatgonzo

UCDVet wrote: »

Chivalry is incredibly sexist.



I tried the equality thing but most women didn't like it and most men felt like I was a dick for it. Around 19-20 years of age I decided to ignore what my parents had taught me and start treating women differently. It worked out a lot better.

I'm confused....what do you do differently?

Donaldio

No because the we do not live in a medieval soceity ! What the **** there are knights in Ireland 2013 ? I should grab my armour and my horse i suppose ?

Stheno

Tasden wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't have thought its about chivalry or sexism, just good manners- if someone has an ailment or appears to have a physical issue that would lead you to believe they may need to sit instead of stand you should offer them a seat. Carrying a human inside you is tough, it makes you tired, nothing to do with her being a woman per se. Mountain out of a molehill.

I agree a few years ago I was using public transport on crutches and you'd swear the crutches didn't exist, very few people gave a seat up and I'd be standing trying to balance on the crutches and occasionally falling!

wexie wrote: »

No it bloody doesn't! It promotes .....not even sure what it promotes. But it's nothing to do with feminine weakness, it's respect, courtesy....whatever.

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?


:rolleyes:

P.C. bloody lunacy's gotta stop, nothing wrong with good old fashioned values like chivalry

:mad::mad:

I like having a door opened for me and equally if it's double doors to keep the second door open for the person behind me. Yesterday I'd a heavy briefcase, and a large box which I was struggling with and the female receptionist in the hotel I was in insisted she get me help

I own neither dungarees or birkenstocks

Magaggie wrote: »

I know women are unfortunately quite significantly less likely to acknowledge, but it's kinda silly to assume none of us would.

Exactly, small displays of good manners deserve a thank you at the very very least.

I remember once carrying a server (not a small object) into a building. Four blokes in front of me (not IT people so I didn't expect they'd offer to carry it) went into the building just in front of me, and the door slammed in my face.

Wouldn't have taken much in terms of manners to wait a couple of seconds to let me through.

OkayWhatever

wexie wrote: »

No it bloody doesn't! It promotes .....not even sure what it promotes. But it's nothing to do with feminine weakness, it's respect, courtesy....whatever.

Ladies, by show of hands : which of you doesn't like having a door held open for her, or a seat moved out or for a man to offer to carry your bags.

Now by show of hands, which of you are currently wearing dungarees and Birkenstocks?


:rolleyes:

P.C. bloody lunacy's gotta stop, nothing wrong with good old fashioned values like chivalry

:mad::mad:

Last time I checked I could carry my own bags? And pretty sure my boyfriend, brother, dad or grandad would like somebody to hold the door for them?

I don't think it's respectful at all to treat anybody different based on gender, who would like that? So many people are trying to promote equality and it's never going to happen if women don't like to sit down unless their chair is pulled out for them by their male companion or if they have to carry their own bags. It just all seems to backwards.

Munstermad

Life is short, be nice when you can, makes the world a little less harsh... Thats what my mammy taught me anyway And tbh, most people get as much out of performing a good deed, as being the recipient of a good deed... Nice guy changed my tyre for me a while back... He didn't have to, but it made my week.. Gentleman.

caustic 1

Good manners is like education, easy carried.

Lando Griffin

I d have got her a seat with lovely pink frilly cushions and a cup of tea.

K-9

Cathy.C wrote: »

Last week there was quite a bit of debate in UK's media after Lib Dem MP, Jo Swinson, who is seven months pregnant, was seen to be standing throughout Prime Minister's Questions in the House of Commons. Many argued that she should have been offered a seat by one of the hundreds of MPs sitting on the benches but her aides suggest that it would have been sexist had any of them done so.

She arrived ten minutes late so a lot of the MP's probably didn't realise she was there.

The above is news to me as, while I don't expect or feel in anyway entitled to it, I regularly experience acts of chivalry from time to time and am always appreciative of them when I do. If I was seven months pregnant and a guy offered me his seat, I would by no means feel he was being sexist, let alone patronising me. I would just feel that it was a nice gesture.

And you shouldn't feel guilty if a guy offers you a seat if 7 months pregnant. Giving an elderly person a seat isn't ageism either.

As for people saying she shouldn't be offered a seat, equalism can be taken to extremes, in this case that ordinary decent manners and consideration for an individual is seen as condescending. I don't want to live in a society like that, so feck of with extreme equality.

Amirani

Offering a seat to a pregnant woman isn't sexist whatsoever. They seat isn't being offered because she's a woman, it's being offered because she's carrying a child that makes her journey relatively more difficult than everyone else's.

I'd happily offer my seat to a person with age related mobility problems or someone with a physical problem. I wouldn't however offer my seat to a non-pregnant, fully-able woman purely because she's a woman. That's sexist.

I'd also hold doors for and help carry things for people of both genders if they looked like they needed help. That's just plain decency.

Stheno

NiallSparky wrote: »

Offering a seat to a pregnant woman isn't sexist whatsoever. They seat isn't being offered because she's a woman, it's being offered because she's carrying a child that makes her journey relatively more difficult than everyone else's.

I'd happily offer my seat to a person with age related mobility problems or someone with a physical problem. I wouldn't however offer my seat to a non-pregnant, fully-able woman purely because she's a woman. That's sexist.

And as a woman who is not particularly observant, I've offered seats to women I thought were pregnant only to discover they were not, and gotten a torrent of abuse for doing so, even if it was a genuine mistake, obviously these are not eight month pregnant plus women. (To give an indication of how bad I am at observing these things, I once failed to notice a colleague had lost weight until he had lost over five stone, he was flabbergasted when I asked if he'd lost weight as I thought he was looking well, his response is not printable)

Pregnant women who are not "about to drop" pregnant are a minefield for me, not so people who are disabled/on crutches/old.

And I'd never expect someone to make an exception for me as I'm female, but appreciate help when offered appropriately

Mint Aero

Stojkovic wrote: »

It probably ended when women stopped saying thanks when you hold the door open. Or simple smile would even suffice.

Saying thanks, yes good manners. Smile, optional. I'd hate to be a woman. For some reason some blokes think women owe them a smile. The f**k is that.

wendell borton

Feck chivalry, Bushido is where its at.

Wattle

And yet if you pinch a woman's arse you'll get you're face smacked even though you're paying her the highest possible compliment

anncoates

I offer my seat to pregnant women not because they're female but they're human beings lugging around a weight they can't exactly put down.

Motivator

If I pay for a seat on a bus or a train why should I give it up to someone who is not paying for the service? i.e. an old person or disabled person.

K-9

Motivator wrote: »

If I pay for a seat on a bus or a train why should I give it up to someone who is not paying for the service? i.e. an old person or disabled person.

Welcome to the libertarian society.

sdanseo

UK society is so utterly "politically correct" that it is ruining itself. I think we have a relatively relaxed attitude here.

Amirani

Motivator wrote: »

If I pay for a seat on a bus or a train why should I give it up to someone who is not paying for the service? i.e. an old person or disabled person.

Because it's a nice thing to do? You don't have any special obligation to DO anything for anybody. However, if everyone took the same attitude then the World would be a really ****ty place.

Frito

Motivator wrote: »

If I pay for a seat on a bus or a train why should I give it up to someone who is not paying for the service? i.e. an old person or disabled person.

Pre-booked seats and subsidised fares aside, your requirement is met by travelling from A to B whereas they may need a seat whilst travelling from A to B.
You are acknowledging whose need of the seat is greater regardless of who purchased the right to use it.

Legs.Eleven

It's manners pure and simple. I offer my seat to any man or woman who looks like they're struggling. Offered my seat to a guy who looked like he was punched on the nose and his whole face was swollen and looked to be in some pain. I also offered my seat to a guy who had a bandage on his leg.

Nothing to do with their gender, It's me giving my seat, which I don't especially need, to someone who looks like they do.

It makes for a nicer world for everyone if we all try to look out for each other a bit. Very simple.

cloud493

Its not about being chivalrous. Its about not being a complete twat. Holding a door open for someone, man or woman, or offering an old lady on the bus a seat or carrying her shopping on for her, thats just being a vaguely non-prick human being.

Manners yes chivalry no

clairefontaine

K-9 wrote: »

She arrived ten minutes late so a lot of the MP's probably didn't realise she was there.



And you shouldn't feel guilty if a guy offers you a seat if 7 months pregnant. Giving an elderly person a seat isn't ageism either.

As for people saying she shouldn't be offered a seat, equalism can be taken to extremes, in this case that ordinary decent manners and consideration for an individual is seen as condescending. I don't want to live in a society like that, so feck of with extreme equality.

The problem is if you want to be in politics like a man, then be in politics like a man. Otherwise you look like a woman who wants the equality with men without having to compete like a man.

Chivalry was half about manners, half about permissions. You had to WAIT for a man to open doors for you. It was a coded permission to access.

And sometimes it was practical, like on older model cars. My brother has a really old Ford. veering I get in the car he still has to close the door because it is so heavy I never shut it correctly.