Kenny declares war on welfare culture

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-10-2013 04:12PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Ha Are you mad?
The whole purpose of the exercise is to reduce wages, unemployment benefit, pensions, CB etc not to give tax breaks.
IBEC and ISME will see to that with the politicians help.
The rich must remain rich at all costs especially our costs.

... but the rich won't get any richer if we don't have any money to buy their ****...

fliball123 · 22-10-2013 04:20PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... but the rich won't get any richer if we don't have any money to buy their ****...

Thats it blame the rich..this is getting ridiculous...its not the rich peoples fault that people are unemployed

tayto lover · 22-10-2013 04:37PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Thats it blame the rich..this is getting ridiculous...its not the rich peoples fault that people are unemployed

Who do you think is at fault?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-10-2013 04:42PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Thats it blame the rich..this is getting ridiculous...its not the rich peoples fault that people are unemployed

Where are you getting this idea of "blame" from...?

I'm just stating an economic fact: the rich need people to consume if they want to get any richer. If no one has any money, no one is consuming.

fliball123 · 22-10-2013 04:53PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Who do you think is at fault?

Its hard to say but you cant make a statement that its all the rich peoples fault.

tayto lover · 22-10-2013 04:58PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Its hard to say but you cant make a statement that its all the rich peoples fault.

I didn't say it was all their fault.
I said that they have to become richer because that's what happens.
The poor suffer much more than the rich in times of recession surely.
A 20% cut to a poor person on minimum wage has much more of a devastating effect than a 20% cut to a very rich person.

Idbatterim · 22-10-2013 04:58PM

I see the elderly are out protesting outside the Dail, no doubt they got there with the free travel pass and can watch themselves on the news later with the free tv license, my heart bleeds :rolleyes: as an aside, will they be refunding the fuel allowance given how mild its been so far, they were roaring for extra payments a few years ago during the cold spell...

tayto lover · 22-10-2013 04:59PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

I see the elderly are out protesting outside the Dail, no doubt they got there with the free travel pass and can watch themselves on the news later with the free tv license, my heart bleeds :rolleyes:

Fair play to them
They put the wind up them the last time they marched.

fliball123 · 22-10-2013 05:03PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn't say it was all their fault.
I said that they have to become richer because that's what happens.
The poor suffer much more than the rich in times of recession surely.
A 20% cut to a poor person on minimum wage has much more of a devastating effect than a 20% cut to a very rich person.

The people in the middle are the ones to date that have been squeezed and squeezed pretty feckin hard...The problem is there is not enough money at the top end (or the rich) to cover what it is owed or to cover the deficit so unfortunately the levels of social welfare are far and away above the average accross the EU and the highest out of any country in a bailout scenario and with addtion of somewhere in the region of 200k more people signing on in the last 5 years as well as the collapse of the taxation from property sales has left no money in the kitty...So as I say the rates on dole and other areas of welfare have been pin pricked compared to the raping that has been acted on the tax payer on a middle income..

At some stage the "hit the middle" has to stop and when anomalies like the one I pointed out to that those on the dole can afford to have kids and people working cant must be corrected.

Sleepy · 22-10-2013 05:14PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Insane amounts of money? The average wage for a labourer during the boom in Ireland was around €550 for a 45-50 hour week of hard bloody work

I'm sorry if you don't agree but 30 to 40 thousand a year for unskilled labour is insanely high imo. It's pretty much twice the minimum wage.

My point is that unskilled workers not taking up what minimum wage jobs are out there isn't an issue of being lazy: it's an issue of lack of motivation (and I'd agree that there simply isn't enough employment available for all those on the welfare lines).

I'm guessing where we'd disagree is that while you'd attribute that lack of motivation being down to the minimum wage not being high enough, I'd attribute as being caused by a dysfunctional welfare system that is overly-generous for those who've been on it long-term.

tayto lover · 22-10-2013 05:18PM

fliball123 wrote: »

The people in the middle are the ones to date that have been squeezed and squeezed pretty feckin hard...The problem is there is not enough money at the top end (or the rich) to cover what it is owed or to cover the deficit so unfortunately the levels of social welfare are far and away above the average accross the EU and the highest out of any country in a bailout scenario and with addtion of somewhere in the region of 200k more people signing on in the last 5 years as well as the collapse of the taxation from property sales has left no money in the kitty...So as I say the rates on dole and other areas of welfare have been pin pricked compared to the raping that has been acted on the tax payer on a middle income..

At some stage the "hit the middle" has to stop and when anomalies like the one I pointed out to that those on the dole can afford to have kids and people working cant must be corrected.

I agree with you on most of this.
I am a middle income worker.
I am in favour of making people earn their dole but not in favour of cutting it anymore. They must have enough to live on.

fliball123 · 22-10-2013 05:23PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with you on most of this.
I am a middle income worker.
I am in favour of making people earn their dole but not in favour of cutting it anymore. They must have enough to live on.

In this country Tayto there are always options for people if they are not getting enough.. Ask yourself the question when is the last time someone in Ireland starved to death?

There has been a shift of resources that have been taken away from the middle that are currently open to those on the dole if they so choose to take them.

Now that Enda has tried to make it harder for people to remain on the dole people are moaning about it...IMO he had to do something the current 20 billion being spent on social welfare is not workable in Irelands current predicament.

tayto lover · 22-10-2013 05:35PM

fliball123 wrote: »

In this country Tayto there are always options for people if they are not getting enough.. Ask yourself the question when is the last time someone in Ireland starved to death?

There has been a shift of resources that have been taken away from the middle that are currently open to those on the dole if they so choose to take them.

Now that Enda has tried to make it harder for people to remain on the dole people are moaning about it...IMO he had to do something the current 20 billion being spent on social welfare is not workable in Irelands current predicament.

There is a big difference in someone who was laid off after working for years and a "career dole" claimer. They cannot be treated the same way. The worker has paid towards his dole. It is shocking to hear of families who have been on the dole for generations, grandfather, son and grandsons. I know some of them that's why I think they should be made do 20 hours at least for their dole.

I would also like to see those responsible for the Banking scandal suffer too. 64/70 Billion was wasted on that scam.

fliball123 · 22-10-2013 05:38PM

tayto lover wrote: »

There is a big difference in someone who was laid off after working for years and a "career dole" claimer. They cannot be treated the same way. The worker has paid towards his dole. It is shocking to hear of families who have been on the dole for generations, grandfather, son and grandsons. I know some of them that's why I think they should be made do 20 hours at least for their dole.

I would also like to see those responsible for the Banking scandal suffer too. 64/70 Billion was wasted on that scam.

Totally agree with you on this

SCOOP 64 · 22-10-2013 05:39PM

fliball123 wrote: »

In this country Tayto there are always options for people if they are not getting enough.. Ask yourself the question when is the last time someone in Ireland starved to death?

Yes, as we dont see anyone on dole starving to death, the money must enough to live on.
Until someone steps over a dead body in street ,then the welfare payouts will be at the fair amount...

Icepick · 22-10-2013 05:49PM

who_ru wrote: »

why doesn't Edna & co focus more on reducing the crippling cost of living in Ireland rather than focusing all efforts on slashing public services across the board.

public 'services' and government intervention are the reason for crippling cost of living

flintash · 22-10-2013 05:49PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Totally agree with you on this

it wasnt waste. Those money paid farmers for their land, paid developers , brickman,plumbers,sparks and all the rest of (was it like 20%) employed people to build a houses, those workers in turn paid taxes, and spend money in the economy (which economy, is defferent matter). So it wasnt waste. Waste was pissing it against the wall and burning it under Spain's sun. It all your fault, not midleman's=banker's.

fliball123 · 22-10-2013 05:53PM

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Yes, as we dont see anyone on dole starving to death, the money must enough to live on.
Until someone steps over a dead body in street ,then the welfare payouts will be at the fair amount...

Well maybe we should cut the dole until we see equality for people who are working until they get the same levels of service that those on the dole are entitled to. As I say they get medical, rent, fuel, household benefits allowance, travel passes, back to school allowance all of this on top of their dole...So spare me the emotional blackmail as I pointed out..it has been a long time since anyone died of starvation in this country.

SCOOP 64 · 22-10-2013 05:58PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Well maybe we should cut the dole until we see equality for people who are working until they get the same levels of service that those on the dole are entitled to. As I say they get medical, rent, fuel, household benefits allowance, travel passes, back to school allowance all of this on top of their dole...So spare me the emotional blackmail as I pointed out..it has been a long time since anyone died of starvation in this country.

Did you know you can still be working, paying taxes, and still get most of the above.

fliball123 · 22-10-2013 06:02PM

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Did you know you can still be working, paying taxes, and still get most of the above.

I was aware that people are entitled to FIS

7upfree · 22-10-2013 06:02PM

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm sorry if you don't agree but 30 to 40 thousand a year for unskilled labour is insanely high imo. It's pretty much twice the minimum wage.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Have you ANY idea how hard these guys work? "Unskilled"?, i.e. no third level degree does not make them any less valuable. Christ, I've seen absolute morons who - inexplicably - managed to attain degree status. But who are absolutely useless in the real world.

SCOOP 64 · 22-10-2013 06:15PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I was aware that people are entitled to FIS

If you claim FIS, you can then claim for back to school allowance and also claim for full medical card ,but all is mean tested, but if someone is on minimum wage or even just above ,you will qualified.

creep · 22-10-2013 06:20PM

100 euro in my opinion is very low for someone to be on for up to the age of 21 24. They should at least get 188 for the first six months, if no employment in six months then should be brought down to 144, if no employment in a further six months then be put down to 100. I think this would be very fair because most people in question do want to work and can take up to a year to find a job. When they turn 25 they should remain on 100 if they have never try'd to better themselves and get a job but should be boosted and to more to 144 an no more. They should get the full the 188 if they have worked

For the under 21's 144 and if no work in six months be brought down to 100 euro and no work in a year be brought down to 80.

For people over 25's depending on kids, mortgage etc it should be brought down to 144 if no work in one year. Thats the fairest way to do it in my opinion.

Its a bit all over the place but you get my drift

chopper6 · 22-10-2013 06:48PM

fliball123 wrote: »

As for a grand a week I played ball with 2/3 heads who worked on building sites as laborers during the boom and they were earning more than I was and I had a degree and nearly 10 years in the IT industry, these guys were not educated but they were good at what they did and they were coming out with 800 a week with the overtime they were doing.

So what exactly?

They worked harder than you and got paid more.

Why is it that everybody with a degree,or worse an IT degree feels that the world owes them and only them a living?

People who want to work in IT do so because they want to sit at a desk all day looking at a computer screen.

They absolutely do NOT want to dig trenches or haul building blocks in the lashings of rain because they dont have the physical strength or the moral fibre for manual work...thats fair enough but don't whinge because people working harder than you are getting paid more than you.

The_Honeybadger · 22-10-2013 06:56PM

chopper6 wrote: »

So what exactly?

They worked harder than you and got paid more.

Why is it that everybody with a degree,or worse an IT degree feels that the world owes them and only them a living?

People who want to work in IT do so because they want to sit at a desk all day looking at a computer screen.

They absolutely do NOT want to dig trenches or haul building blocks in the lashings of rain because they dont have the physical strength or the moral fibre for manual work...thats fair enough but don't whinge because people working harder than you are getting paid more than you.

The moral fibre for manual work...... Love it!!

chopper6 · 22-10-2013 06:59PM

mickeyk wrote: »

The moral fibre for manual work...... Love it!!

Yup...the attitude that i'll go out and work for a living as opposed to spending half my life in Uni then looking for something behind a desk.

The_Honeybadger · 22-10-2013 07:01PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Yup...the attitude that i'll go out and work for a living as opposed to spending half my life in Uni then looking for something behind a desk.

Plenty of room for both attitudes in fairness. Nothing wrong with either.

wexie · 22-10-2013 07:03PM

chopper6 wrote: »

People who want to work in IT do so because they want to sit at a desk all day looking at a computer screen.

Give us more of your marvelous insights into the IT industry, I'm at the edge of my seat.

:rolleyes:

Idbatterim · 22-10-2013 07:08PM

Who do you think is at fault?

the government and the Irish electorate...

Elephant Man from china · 22-10-2013 07:27PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Yup...the attitude that i'll go out and work for a living as opposed to spending half my life in Uni then looking for something behind a desk.

If this really was their attitude, why wouldn't they take a job in a shop or minimum wage factory? The reason, life on the dole and the occasional nixer allows them to sit at home all day, staring at a screen ;-)

Kenny declares war on welfare culture

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