Biting the Hand that feeds?

Chicken Ryan · 21-10-2013 10:05PM

MadsL wrote: »

Some of them are professionals such as doctors or lawyers.

The right to work would be pretty high on those "what more do they want?" list.

Irish people have just as much a right to work as they do but hey, not everybody is that fortunate in this economic climate to find work so why should they be any different?

RandomName2 · 21-10-2013 10:06PM

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

They were helped by their new countries that took them in and treated them with dignity, and went on to become contributing members of their new society. I'd like to think we could do the same...

Helped how?

The Irish predominantly emigrated to England, America and Australia where they ended up in crowded, horrible conditions, and were typically discriminated against.

"Help wanted. No Irish need apply" was a typical enough sight in New York

And... and.. this was the country of opportunity. America, which had no pressure on space or resources.

Not saying that it wasn't absolutely necessary that Irish emigrants and refugees had the bolt hole of the US and Commonwealth countries from which they might eventually escape poverty - but this cock and bull story about being welcomed abroad, being trotted out every time, gets on my wick.

up for anything · 21-10-2013 10:06PM

theblaqueguy wrote: »

They get a roof over their heads and food to eat what more do they need? I dont think they deserve anything else until they are granted asylum I think they should be kicked out and let some homeless people take there place I'm sure they'd appreciate it more than these ungrateful people

Are these mutually exclusive? Can't we provide for both?

keeponhurling · 21-10-2013 10:06PM

Hi there,
I just arrived on my high horse and was about to accuse a few posters of being racists, however I am unable to ascertain from the link in the OP what is the skin colour if this asylum seeking family.

If anyone can help with this info, even the nationality would be useful.

I think it's important for how this After Hours discussion might develop

Stereomaniac · 21-10-2013 10:07PM

Woah, that is a quote from another thread I thought, or is this user just posting the same thing in each thread. I am in the twilight zone here. Maybe they could reopen Mosney with them working in it!

hansfrei · 21-10-2013 10:07PM

MadsL wrote: »

Just tear up the Geneva Convention is it?

The GC could apply to our own people too. What do you want. Is it my fault we're broke?

Idbatterim · 21-10-2013 10:11PM

if they were at home they would be getting **** all,they should be happy they are getting anything at all

I wonder if we went to their countries what we would be "entitled" too? a bullet in the head if you dared question or condemn their system I reckon!

RandomName2 · 21-10-2013 10:13PM

Chicken Ryan wrote: »

Irish people have just as much a right to work as they do but hey, not everybody is that fortunate in this economic climate to find work so why should they be any different?

No, to be fair, people applying for asylum on a refugee status are not allowed work. This is because they are only supposed to be here in order to seek safety.

Migrant workers, who enter on a work visa (or through free movement within EU) can, of course, work.

inocybe · 21-10-2013 10:13PM

If the hand is feeding you processed crap... being able to cook your own food is pretty basic.

Muise... · 21-10-2013 10:13PM

hansfrei wrote: »

The GC could apply to our own people too. What do you want. Is it my fault we're broke?

Nope, the GC is about international humanitarian laws. To out-pedant MadsL, the refugee parts are actually in the Geneva Protocol bit.

It's the limbo that's the problem here - rather than streamline the system of applications and endless appeals, the State seems to be playing chicken with asylum seekers by making the waiting period even harder on them.

WoollyRedHat · 21-10-2013 10:13PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Helped how?

The Irish predominantly emigrated to England, America and Australia where they ended up in crowded, horrible conditions, and were typically discriminated against.

"Help wanted. No Irish need apply" was a typical enough sight in New York

And... and.. this was the country of opportunity. America, which had no pressure on space or resources.

Not saying that it wasn't absolutely necessary that Irish emigrants and refugees had the bolt hole of the US and Commonwealth countries from which they might eventually escape poverty - but this cock and bull story about being welcomed abroad, being trotted out every time, gets on my wick.

I am aware of the environment that some Irish had to endure and of the squalor and of the tenements and all that sort of thing and I did not wish to propagate any sort of myth or engage in overindulgent romanticism, as I would be guilty of the very type of policy in which our country has been historically guilty of, but it's neither black or white.

I was referring more to a greater social understanding and accomadation, where they were no longer strangulated or limited by a controlling moral code. They were helped when they went to England, such as incidents of pregnancy.. or greater economic opportunity than was made possible there.Of course there was still impoverishment and equally discrimination, which I believe should not be a topic of debate in the 21st century... we should not reduce people to the bare essentials and treated little better than animals and to witness human suffferings such as tenaments and poor social opportunities and conditions,

MadsL · 21-10-2013 10:14PM

Chicken Ryan wrote: »

Irish people have just as much a right to work as they do but hey, not everybody is that fortunate in this economic climate to find work so why should they be any different?

Huh? Irish people have nothing preventing them from working, Asylum Seekers are prohibited from working.

hansfrei wrote: »

The GC could apply to our own people too. What do you want. Is it my fault we're broke?

You want Ireland to dump all of its international obligations despite being bailed out by the IMF. Hmm...what does the I stand for again?

Amirani · 21-10-2013 10:14PM

theblaqueguy wrote: »

They get a roof over their heads and food to eat what more do they need? I dont think they deserve anything else until they are granted asylum I think they should be kicked out and let some homeless people take there place I'm sure they'd appreciate it more than these ungrateful people

Ungrateful? Are you serious?

Stereomaniac · 21-10-2013 10:14PM

I guess if our laws allow it, they can appeal it if they want. The mechanisms are in place for them to do so, therefore I feel that I am not in a position to point the finger or to judge them.

oppenheimer1 · 21-10-2013 10:16PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Are there figures available as to the amount of asylum seekers here historically? How many people were queuing to come to Ireland for asylum in the 80's for example?

Very few. It was only in the late nineties that Ireland became a destination for asylum sekers. The system that was in place at the time was ill equipped to deal with the volume of applicants (there were roughly 12,000 applicants in 2002). This lead to a tightening of regulations to prevent the system being abused and a collapse in asylum seeker applicants followed (roughly 1500 in 2012).

Of those that apply here, the acceptance rate is small, somewhere around 8-9% get granted asylum status. Only Luxembourg, Greece and Cyprus have lower rates than Ireland in Europe.

discus · 21-10-2013 10:16PM

MadsL wrote: »

Huh? Irish people have nothing preventing them from working, Asylum Seekers are prohibited from working.

There's a reason for that - so asylum is not used as a backdoor by people who are looking to avoid getting a visa.

cassi · 21-10-2013 10:17PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

I wonder if we went to their countries what we would be "entitled" too? a bullet in the head if you dared question or condemn their system I reckon!

How does that make any difference to how they are treated here?

discus · 21-10-2013 10:17PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I think that you'll find that there isn't any dignity in not having any freedom of choice.

To live in appaling and overcrowded conditions, to have to eat canteen food which may never encompass the food you generally eat, to have only 20 quid a week in hand to buy necessities with, to be stuck there for years, and not know when you might get out - these conditions couldn't be better designed to bring about depression and anxiety in people.

So, what should we do, pay everyone who arrives to seek asylum a fair wage and provide their food and housing too?

Days 298 · 21-10-2013 10:19PM

Sounds terrible wonder why they even came here.

Chicken Ryan · 21-10-2013 10:20PM

MadsL wrote: »

Huh? Irish people have nothing preventing them from working, Asylum Seekers are prohibited from working.

Its hard enough as it is to get a job with the amount of legal migrant workers living here never mind throwing in asylum applicants whose applications haven't even been decided. They could be totally bogus for all you know.

Chicken Ryan · 21-10-2013 10:21PM

discus wrote: »

So, what should we do, pay everyone who arrives to seek asylum a fair wage and provide their food and housing too?

Your idea seems consistent with the current circus we're living in

hansfrei · 21-10-2013 10:22PM

MadsL wrote: »

Huh? Irish people have nothing preventing them from working, Asylum Seekers are prohibited from working.

You want Ireland to dump all of its international obligations despite being bailed out by the IMF. Hmm...what does the I stand for again?

Where do I start?

*We weren't bailed out. We were bailed in. Bailed into taking on someone elses debts for the most part. Which we're paying "back" with interest.

*We're fcuking broke, we owe a fcukload more than any of the countries from which asylum seekers come.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

*I've already said 'when we get back on our feet' it's all cool and the gang.

*Where is this imaginary money we dont have comming from in order to land these people into the lap of luxury?

oppenheimer1 · 21-10-2013 10:23PM

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

That is not right either.
....

When the Irish people were often forced emigrate because of social hostility and contempt from their own government, they did so because of neccesity. They were helped by their new countries that took them in and treated them with dignity, and went on to become contributing members of their new society. I'd like to think we could do the same...

When the Irish left it was rarely because of persecution per-se, but out of economic necessity. They were economic migrants looking for a better life, like many coming to Europe today.

Even though this is not really relevant to this argument, but the Irish were rarely treated with dignity in the countries they migrated to.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wNJtF1XNe8Y/SngiXoxhOJI/AAAAAAAABZM/xpGfWG5vLOw/s400/no+irish+no+blacks+no+dogs.jpg

ceadaoin. · 21-10-2013 10:32PM

Chicken Ryan wrote: »

Its hard enough as it is to get a job with the amount of legal migrant workers living here never mind throwing in asylum applicants whose applications haven't even been decided. They could be totally bogus for all you know.

So migrant workers are to blame for the lack of jobs now?

Chicken Ryan · 21-10-2013 10:35PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

So migrant workers are to blame for the lack of jobs now?

No they're not but they contribute to the scarcity of them though.

Have you tried renting in Dublin recently? Give it a try and come back to me.

Jumboman · 21-10-2013 10:37PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

So migrant workers are to blame for the lack of jobs now?

They are not responsable for the lack of jobs but they are not helping the situation.

Ace2007 · 21-10-2013 10:39PM

Chicken Ryan wrote: »

No they're not but they contribute to the scarcity of them though.

Have you tried renting in Dublin recently? Give it a try and come back to me.

wtf has the renting to do with anything - have you seen the conditions most of them live in?

WoollyRedHat · 21-10-2013 10:46PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

When the Irish left it was rarely because of persecution per-se, but out of economic necessity. They were economic migrants looking for a better life, like many coming to Europe today.

Even though this is not really relevant to this argument, but the Irish were rarely treated with dignity in the countries they migrated to.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wNJtF1XNe8Y/SngiXoxhOJI/AAAAAAAABZM/xpGfWG5vLOw/s400/no+irish+no+blacks+no+dogs.jpg

The lack of economic opportunity can often be connected to social problems, and persecution and social hostility led to economic difficulties.

I conceede that they may not have been treated with the dignity to the countries they emigrated to.

WoollyRedHat · 21-10-2013 10:49PM

Jumboman wrote: »

They are not responsible for the lack of jobs but they are not helping the situation.

When Irish people emigrate because of a common work agreement and availbiility of visas, it opens up the job market. Equally so, migrant workers will come to Ireland and take advantage of the same agreement.

johnr1 · 21-10-2013 10:50PM

For those who are so ready to throw about the Geneva Convention and International Law, have any of you read the bit where the applicant must apply for asylum in the FIRST country they enter, - now unless these people are fleeing persecution in Norn Iron, then they have no legitimate right to bd here at all. Any of them.

Biting the Hand that feeds?

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