Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

Judgement Day · 18-10-2013 07:52PM

downonthefarm wrote: »

do the guards not have better things to be doing?? so what if it saves a few million, its only going to be siphoned into the T.D's pensions meanwhile time and money is going to wasted that could be used catching real crooks

Too damn right. If the silly bint is looking for gardai for this scheme she should take them from the pool of garda drivers used by Ministers. If the checkpoints are the answer to this why aren't they set up at night to stop the van loads of thugs prowling around the countryside. More to the point why aren't the army used too instead of pratting about in the Middle East.

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 07:56PM

constance tench wrote: »

common law rule?... have you got a link there to the statute?

You're right to be mystified by the common law rule, because I certainly am.

Nevertheless, it was "unearthed" by the Supreme Court in DPP v. Patrick Fagan., which you might be able to find online for free. The Supreme Court said there is a common law right for a Garda to stop a car without suspicion.

However, there is also section 109(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1961.

As much as i disagree with targeting people like this, it's hard to see how it could not be legal in light of the above. Wrong? Maybe. Legal? Pretty definitely.

My name is URL · 18-10-2013 08:13PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

You're right to be mystified by the common law rule, because I certainly am.

Nevertheless, it was "unearthed" by the Supreme Court in DPP v. Patrick Fagan., which you might be able to find online for free. The Supreme Court said there is a common law right for a Garda to stop a car without suspicion.

However, there is also section 109(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1961.

As much as i disagree with targeting people like this, it's hard to see how it could not be legal in light of the above. Wrong? Maybe. Legal? Pretty definitely.

What's the deal with data sharing between Gardai and SW officials in the context of these checkpoints.

Someone pointed out that there's a provision in place for it, but the wording is a bit vague.

Section 265 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act

A specified body holding information may share that information with another specified body who has a transaction with a natural person relating to a relevant purpose, where the specified body seeking the information provides the personal public service number of the person who is the subject of the transaction and satisfies the data controller of the specified body holding the information that the information requested is relevant to the transaction for that purpose between the person and the specified body seeking the information.

Does that not kind of suggest that a Garda may not share any info about a person they have stopped unless the SW official has provided the Garda with said person's PPSN? How then could the SW official even look up the PPSN of the person Gardai have stopped?

mikeym · 18-10-2013 08:36PM

How if your late for work and stopped at one of these checkpoints??

Im gonna tell them some fibs if I get stopped

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 08:45PM

My name is URL wrote: »

What's the deal with data sharing between Gardai and SW officials in the context of these checkpoints.

Someone pointed out that there's a provision in place for it, but the wording is a bit vague.

Section 265 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act

Does that not kind of suggest that a Garda may not share any info about a person they have stopped unless the SW official has provided the Garda with said person's PPSN? How then could the SW official even look up the PPSN of the person Gardai have stopped?

As far as I know, the Gardaí are not a specified body for the purposes of s. 265, except where it relates to Garda employees themselves.

Instead, subsection 2 of section 261 applies here. Uniquely, under section 261, Garda siochána morph to become a specified body', where they are not one elsewhere under the acts.

Information held by the Minister for the purposes of this Act or the control of schemes administered by or on behalf of the Minister or the Department of Social and Family Affairs may be transferred by the Minister to another Minister of the Government or a specified body, and information held by another Minister of the Government or a specified body which is required for those purposes or the control of any such scheme administered by another Minister of the Government or a specified body may be transferred by that Minister of the Government or the specified body to the Minister.

The requirements of this section, as you can see, are less rigorous than section 265. The above provides a very broad right to share information.

tayto lover · 18-10-2013 08:46PM

Hitchens wrote: »

yeah I'd say so, probably like those bank holiday driving blitzes they love advertising but you could drive from Kerry to Donegal and on to Wexford without ever seeing a cop (especially if it's raining )

I was stopped twice today in the rain at checkpoints between Cavan and Dundalk. They were only checking tax and insurance though.
Luckily everything was in order.

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 08:49PM

mikeym wrote: »

How if your late for work and stopped at one of these checkpoints??

Im gonna tell them some fibs if I get stopped

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If the person is driving a car, yes they can. It's a common law rule, and it's also provided by statute.

Even the gards and judges are getting into this "Freeman of the land" crap now?

Hitchens · 18-10-2013 08:50PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I was stopped twice today in the rain at checkpoints between Cavan and Dundalk.

jaze, it's serious if they're out in de rain bhoy!

Hitchens · 18-10-2013 08:53PM

hansfrei wrote: »

Even the gards and judges are getting into this "Freeman of the land" crap now?

didn't Ben Gilroy start that - "are you here under your garda warrant to uphold the common law?" (or words to that effect)

tayto lover · 18-10-2013 08:59PM

Hitchens wrote: »

jaze, it's serious if they're out in de rain bhoy!

They were stopping just outside Cavan Town on the Coothill road and again outside Carrickmacross on the Dundalk road. Bloody Go Safe van just on the way into Coothill too. Got 2 points and 80 euro fine there last year for doing 58 in a 50.:mad::mad:

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 09:06PM

hansfrei wrote: »

Even the gards and judges are getting into this "Freeman of the land" crap now?

Not sure I understand.

The common law is a valid source of Irish law, used every day of the working week in Irish courts. It shouldn't be bastardized by, nor associated with the freemen.

Asking "ar ye on yer oath, Gard?" or whatever they say, is nothing to do with the common law, nor is calling yourself Micky, of the family Mouse; that's just something that they seem to have made up. The common law is a real 'thing' that sane people use all the time.

Dyr · 18-10-2013 09:12PM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Really old video related to the shell to sea...google it...

Anyway this is stupid. Imagine the likes of Sandyford Industrial Estate if they were to stop every car in the mornings!

Be interesting to know if there's any requirement to roll down a window under any law :pac:

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 09:36PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Not sure I understand.

The common law is a valid source of Irish law, used every day of the working week in Irish courts. It shouldn't be bastardized by, nor associated with the freemen.

Asking "ar ye on yer oath, Gard?" or whatever they say, is nothing to do with the common law, nor is calling yourself Micky, of the family Mouse; that's just something that they seem to have made up. The common law is a real 'thing' that sane people use all the time.

Under common law they'd be keepers of the peace. Under oath to uphold the constitution. Common law gives you the 'right' to travel. Without obstruction, along the highway.

Quoting common law to re-enforce a contrary act is where the dilema lies surely?

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 09:56PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If the person is driving a car, yes they can. It's a common law rule, and it's also provided by statute.

no they cant....a guard has no right to ask what is your occupation

B.A._Baracus · 18-10-2013 10:07PM

Whats the craic with this common law rule and only getting stopped in a car? I've got stopped 4 times in the last few years. Was walking down the road!!!

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 10:09PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Whats the craic with this common law rule and only getting stopped in a car? I've got stopped 4 times in the last few years. Was walking down the road!!!

Dress up like a car when you're out walking so.

mockingjay · 18-10-2013 10:12PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Whats the craic with this common law rule and only getting stopped in a car? I've got stopped 4 times in the last few years. Was walking down the road!!!

Take down your hood then.

B.A._Baracus · 18-10-2013 10:17PM

mockingjay wrote: »

Take down your hood then.

Dont wear hoods and I hate wearing a tracksuit unless in the gym. I also dont have a skanger hair style. Just a normal bloke. Who walking down the road was enough to get stopped.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 10:20PM

law has been bastardised .. was not intended to just randomly stop you in the street/car you have the right as a citizen to freely travel without obstruction it's in the constitution. so how can the garda stop you if he is upholding the constitution ?

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 10:22PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

no they cant....a guard has no right to ask what is your occupation

If the gardai have been informed that someone is committing welfare fraud by working in the black market, and they target that person pulling them over in the belief that they are going to work, thus committing a crime then yes they can ask you if you're going to 'work' and what your 'employment'is.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 10:25PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

If the gardai have been informed that someone is committing welfare fraud by working in the black market, and they target that person pulling them over in the belief that they are going to work, thus committing a crime then yes they can ask you if you're going to 'work' and what your 'employment'is.

Nope the road traffic act is to do with road traffic offenses nothing to do with hey im just goanna pull you over and ask were you are going and what you are doing. they can check licence tax insurance it's not a free for all. Td’s seem to be able to get away with loads of stuff saying there coming from the dail. so why does an ordinary citizen have to answer a whole bunch of random questions ?

My name is URL · 18-10-2013 10:27PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

If the gardai have been informed that someone is committing welfare fraud by working in the black market, and they target that person pulling them over in the belief that they are going to work, thus committing a crime then yes they can ask you if you're going to 'work' and what your 'employment'is.

They can ask whatever the fcuk they want.. you're still under no obligation to answer a damn thing. There's no freeman bullcrap in that statement.. surely every single person has the right to refuse to incriminate themselves on the roadside?

tayto lover · 18-10-2013 10:28PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nope the road traffic act is to do with road traffic offenses nothing to do with hey im just goanna pull you over and ask were you are going and what you are doing. they can check licence tax insurance it's not a free for all. Td’s seem to be able to get away with loads of stuff saying there coming from the dail. so why does an ordinary citizen have to answer a whole bunch of random questions ?

In the border area during the troubles you could have been asked anything and had your car searched entirely with the seats removed too.
Thank God that's all over.
Also during the Mad Cow and Foot and Mouth times you could be asked where you were going what you worked at and have anything with meat in it seized and not a thing could you do about it. I spent hours stuck on the road with checkpoints everywhere along the border.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 10:31PM

tayto lover wrote: »

In the border area during the troubles you could have been asked anything and had your car searched entirely with the seats removed too.
Thank God that's all over.

Yeah the army are different boarder control is totally different. They could stop search for passports if they wanted and searching the car was to see if you were smuggling or taking things that were illegal over you know like fireworks and so on. Since the checkpoints for this are not on the border you don't have to supply any other information that is not relevant to the road traffic act

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 10:32PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

If the gardai have been informed that someone is committing welfare fraud by working in the black market, and they target that person pulling them over in the belief that they are going to work, thus committing a crime then yes they can ask you if you're going to 'work' and what your 'employment'is.

they would be assuming that a crime had been committed...gardai are not allowed to make assumptions. if they have no proof of a crime being committed then they have no right to ask these questions

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 10:34PM

hansfrei wrote: »

Under common law they'd be keepers of the peace. Under oath to uphold the constitution. Common law gives you the 'right' to travel. Without obstruction, along the highway.

Quoting common law to re-enforce a contrary act is where the dilema lies surely?

I'm not sure where you're getting this. The common law right of a Garda to stop you without suspicion is, in any case, according to the supreme court, statutorily 'backed up' under s.109 of the road traffic act 1961. Note that a section 109 request is not conditional on suspicion.

My name is URL wrote: »

They can ask whatever the fcuk they want.. you're still under no obligation to answer a damn thing. There's no freeman bullcrap in that statement.. surely every single person has the right to refuse to incriminate themselves?

You do have the right not to answer, that's not 'freemanry'.

Nevertheless, if you refuse to answer, a Garda might cite this as reason for reasonable suspicion. Stopping your car is a general power, arrest is based on reasonable suspicion.

All I am saying is what the courts have said, I'm not saying I agree that it's fair. In fact, even the current Chief Justice disagreed with the Supreme Court in DPP v Fagan, but she was outvoted 4-1.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 10:36PM

Lets imagine they pulled over a lawyer or someone who knows the law see how far they get with there random questions then. As a normal citizen you feel obliged to give the garda information that he/she requests as your a law abiding citizen. But this is not free reign to trample all over your rights. I cant see how this is legal.

feargale · 18-10-2013 10:37PM

godwin wrote: »

Can they do this? I mean what civil rights does a person have if they get stopped at a check points by welfare and the garda enquiring who they are and where they are going?]

Indeed. The gardai should only speak when spoken to. And silence on their part should be construed as guilt in respect of something or other.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 10:50PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

they would be assuming that a crime had been committed...gardai are not allowed to make assumptions. if they have no proof of a crime being committed then they have no right to ask these questions

That is not true.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html

Most of the powers given to the Gardaí to stop and question members of the public are set out in law (known as statutory powers). There are, however, a number of instances where a Garda is entitled to stop and question you where no statutory power exists. This is known as a common law power.An example of this would be where a Garda observes you acting suspiciously late at night, in an area where a lot of crimes are being committed. The Garda is entitled to stop you in order to detect and prevent crime. You are under no legal obligation to co-operate with the Garda and the Garda cannot use force to restrain your freedom under common law, short of arresting you.However, if the Garda has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you committed an offence, the Garda can use a statutory power to demand your name and address. If you refuse to provide them, then the Garda can arrest you.The Gardaí have a common law power to stop motorists at random in order to detect and prevent crime. This power can be used, for example, to stop cars near pubs to identify drunk drivers or in order to check cars passing through an area where a lot of crime had been committed.

Fred Swanson · 18-10-2013 10:53PM

This post has been deleted.

Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

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