Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

WhatNowForUs? · 18-10-2013 10:55AM

RustyNut wrote: »

You need to educate yourself about your rights, someday you might have need of them.

http://www.iccl.ie/being-stopped-by-a-garda-2.html

From that it says that a Garda can demand your name and address and if not provided can arrest you if you do not cooperate in going down to the station when requested if the Garda has suspicion of an offence having occurred.

RustyNut · 18-10-2013 11:05AM

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

From that it says that a Garda can demand your name and address and if not provided can arrest you if you do not cooperate in going down to the station when requested if the Garda has suspicion of an offence having occurred.

The Garda must have reasonable suspicion. Random checkpoints won't cut reasonable.

This is what happens when they get it wrong.

josip · 18-10-2013 11:25AM

RustyNut wrote: »

This is what happens when they get it wrong.

In every year except 2006, the costs exceeded the awards and settlements.
There are a lot of parasites in the Irish legal system.

Phoebas · 18-10-2013 01:48PM

RustyNut wrote: »

The Garda must have reasonable suspicion. Random checkpoints won't cut reasonable.

This is what happens when they get it wrong.

Refusal to provide your name and address to a Garda would provide reasonable suspicion, no?

Lacerda · 18-10-2013 01:49PM

godwin wrote: »

Can they do this? I mean what civil rights does a person have if they get stopped at a check points by welfare and the garda enquiring who they are and where they are going?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/burton-garda-checkpoints-on-estates-to-weed-out-welfare-cheats-29665728.html

I'm sure that violates a

Fred Swanson · 18-10-2013 01:51PM

This post has been deleted.

RustyNut · 18-10-2013 01:56PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Refusal to provide your name and address to a Garda would provide reasonable suspicion, no?

Reasonable suspicion of committing what offence ?

18-10-2013 01:58PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Reasonable suspicion of committing what offence ?

Not knowing your name and address.

Fred Swanson · 18-10-2013 02:12PM

This post has been deleted.

brokenarms · 18-10-2013 02:13PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

You would have to be a serious fool to start questioning a Garda on the road side with all this BS. They will show the upper hand by any means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOS79OuFU-c

18-10-2013 02:13PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not getting a joke is though.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 02:32PM

A.Partridge wrote: »

Ha ha ha !

It's hilarious that Gardai will be checking out people who are doing a bit of black market work.

I know lots of gardai with two jobs or more ! :pac:

It's perfectly legal to have more than one job. It's an offence to commit welfare fraud. It's an offence to evade due taxation.

Hitchens · 18-10-2013 03:05PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

It's an offence to commit welfare fraud.

...or any type of fraud

RacoonQueen · 18-10-2013 04:45PM

brokenarms wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
You would have to be a serious fool to start questioning a Garda on the road side with all this BS. They will show the upper hand by any means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOS79OuFU-c

Really old video related to the shell to sea...google it...

Anyway this is stupid. Imagine the likes of Sandyford Industrial Estate if they were to stop every car in the mornings!

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 04:50PM

Hitchens wrote: »

...or any type of fraud

Exactly. As far as I know welfare fraud is a separate offence to fraud though. Admittedly I'm not an expert on the matter.

Phoebas · 18-10-2013 06:21PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Reasonable suspicion of committing what offence ?

Welfare fraud.
Gardai set up a checkpoint to detect welfare fraud. People stopped by the checkpoint refuse to cooperate with the checkpoint specifically set up to detect welfare fraud .... reasonable suspicion of welfare fraud.

Fred Swanson · 18-10-2013 06:23PM

This post has been deleted.

Phoebas · 18-10-2013 06:27PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They won't be asking you if its reasonable suspicion in your opinion. Its the opinion of the Garda that makes the arrest that counts (and maybe of a judge if it gets that far).

Fred Swanson · 18-10-2013 06:32PM

This post has been deleted.

constance tench · 18-10-2013 06:37PM

They would need 'just cause' to stop one in the first place..'tis all to put a little 'frightener' out there IMO

Phoebas · 18-10-2013 06:38PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They wouldn't be using refusal to answer on its own. The checkpoints are targeted operations where welfare fraud is suspected; that in conjunction with someone refusing to answer some pretty basic questions should be enough to warrant an arrest.

People get arrested on this basis all of the time.

Phoebas · 18-10-2013 06:41PM

constance tench wrote: »

They would need 'just cause' to stop one in the first place..'tis all to put a little 'frightener' out there IMO

The Gardai operate checkpoints and stop people every day of the week, for tax disks for drink driving and very often when serious crimes have been committed in an area, they'll operate checkpoints too.

Hitchens · 18-10-2013 06:41PM

constance tench wrote: »

They would need 'just cause' to stop one in the first place..'tis all to put a little 'frightener' out there IMO

yeah I'd say so, probably like those bank holiday driving blitzes they love advertising but you could drive from Kerry to Donegal and on to Wexford without ever seeing a cop (especially if it's raining

)

downonthefarm · 18-10-2013 06:44PM

do the guards not have better things to be doing?? so what if it saves a few million, its only going to be siphoned into the T.D's pensions meanwhile time and money is going to wasted that could be used catching real crooks

Phoebas · 18-10-2013 06:46PM

downonthefarm wrote: »

do the guards not have better things to be doing?? so what if it saves a few million, its only going to be siphoned into the T.D's pensions meanwhile time and money is going to wasted that could be used catching real crooks

Yeah - let's not bother with the small stuff, like frauds amounting to just a few million

constance tench · 18-10-2013 06:53PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Yeah - let's not bother with the small stuff, like frauds amounting to just a few million

Anglo.

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 07:08PM

constance tench wrote: »

They would need 'just cause' to stop one in the first place..'tis all to put a little 'frightener' out there IMO

No they don't.

There is quite a remarkable situation whereby the Gardaí have an unlimited right to direct you to stop at a checkpoint for the purposes of their enquiries.

Unlike every other scenario of a Garda's intervention into your private life, stopping you at the roadside is an unlimited right of Gardaí and requires no suspicion whatever.

The answer to the question as to what constitutes reasonable suspicion is another thing. I could see a situation arise whereby your refusal to answer would cause a reasonable suspicion to arise, yes.

The summary is, the new proposals are both sweeping and, unfortunately, legal.

constance tench · 18-10-2013 07:26PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No they don't.

There is quite a remarkable situation whereby the Gardaí have an unlimited right to direct you to stop at a checkpoint for the purposes of their enquiries.

Unlike every other scenario of a Garda's intervention into your private life, stopping you at the roadside is an unlimited right of Gardaí and requires no suspicion whatever.

The answer to the question as to what constitutes reasonable suspicion is another thing. I could see a situation arise whereby your refusal to answer would cause a reasonable suspicion to arise, yes.

The summary is, the new proposals are both sweeping and, unfortunately, legal.

Yes ...under the road traffic Act.

[ED] An Garda Síochána can't just stop anybody and question them about social welfare/where they work.

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 07:42PM

constance tench wrote: »

[ED] An Garda Síochána can't just stop anybody and question them about social welfare/where they work.

If the person is driving a car, yes they can. It's a common law rule, and it's also provided by statute.

constance tench · 18-10-2013 07:48PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If the person is driving a car, yes they can. It's a common law rule, and it's also provided by statute.

common law rule?... have you got a link there to the statute?

Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

Comments