Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

tayto lover · 16-10-2013 10:26PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Ray Burke
Frank Dunlop
4 bankers already indicted.
You have evidence of actual criminality (as opposed to hyperbole) bring it to the guards.

Some of them are more than 10 years ago and before the banking Fiasco.
We have yet to see a banker in jail.

The garda inc C.A.B. have been kept well away from the Banking inquiry. I wonder why?

denlaw · 16-10-2013 10:30PM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Never heard of a Posh Industrial Estate. They're not going after residential areas just work areas.;)

It's nothing like 1930's Germany.... especially since there was "no" unemployment in the Third Reich anyways:eek: (killed the disabled and elderly... and banned female employment).

Right you are, i heard estates and presumed such, its bloody hard enough getting out of our estate half the time, anyway , what a bloody stupid idea, most people doing nixers are painting, bit of small building work, out of the way stuff, keeping their heads down, they're not going round with a big "signing and working here" on their t-shirts and most likely not working in industrial estates..

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2013 10:35PM

This gets wheeled out by the papers every now and again as being new news eventhough it was around in the last century, indeed the last millennium.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dole-fraud-checkpoints-a-success-26155347.html

And Joan Burton gave lots of information to the Dail earlier this year if the press were interested.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-07-09a.50

bumper234 · 16-10-2013 11:18PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Why don't they just ask Revenue, who have records of employees to check against Social welfare records?

This is..................retarded.

You do understand that it's the people collecting social welfare and working but not paying tax they are after right? Why would revenue have a record of them working if they are not paying taxes?

Technoprisoner · 16-10-2013 11:36PM

this wont work....the guards/welfare have no right to ask you where you are coming from or where are you going. unless a crime has been committed they have no right to ask you any questions

My name is URL · 16-10-2013 11:37PM

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Clever move by a labour minister who's view is supposed to be classless :rolleyes:

She is most definitely classless :P

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2013 11:56PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

this wont work....the guards/welfare have no right to ask you where you are coming from or where are you going. unless a crime has been committed they have no right to ask you any questions

Saying this won't work is falling into the trap set by journalists trying to pretend they are reporting something new. It is something very old and it has been working.

http://www.joanburton.ie/social-protection-2/e669-million-saved-through-control-measures-in-2012

The Social Welfare site is down at the moment, otherwise I could post a link showing the powers of Social Welfare Inspectors on duty at Multi Agency Vehicle Checkpoints. If it was as simple as someone saying Good day Garda may I be on my way then there would have been no point in having these checkpoints for the last 20 years. Is welfare fraud a crime?

jonsnow · 17-10-2013 12:01AM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Ray Burke
Frank Dunlop
4 bankers already indicted.
You have evidence of actual criminality (as opposed to hyperbole) bring it to the guards.

ray burke did 4 and a half months in a secure wing which was like a holiday camp. His official pension payments alone are 3 million.So the irish justice system didn't exactly set down a marker there to discourage white collar crime.

Frank Dunlop was the bagman. His whole purpose was to take the fall for bigger fish if needs be. Which he duly did.

4 bankers indicted 5 years after their bank brings the whole country down. Trial to be held 6 years later and has every chance of resulting in a mistrial.

Ireland has a pathetic record in this area which is blatently obvious to any thinking person.

Any news on that Garda/DPP investigation into the Moriarty tribunals findings with regard to Denis O'Brien. Nearly 3 years after the tribunal reported.

But lets pull over a man in a white van.

Technoprisoner · 17-10-2013 12:03AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Saying this won't work is falling into the trap set by journalists trying to pretend they are reporting something new. It is something very old and it has been working.

http://www.joanburton.ie/social-protection-2/e669-million-saved-through-control-measures-in-2012

The Social Welfare site is down at the moment, otherwise I could post a link showing the powers of Social Welfare Inspectors on duty at Multi Agency Vehicle Checkpoints. If it was as simple as someone saying Good day Garda may I be on my way then there would have been no point in having these checkpoints for the last 20 years. Is welfare fraud a crime?

i think its just that people dont know there true rights...how many people pull up to a general check point for road tax ect...and the guard ask's them where they are coming from...i guarantee you over 90% of people answer them when they have every right to tell the guard to go do one.

welfare fraud is a crime but is everyone guilty until proven innocent?

buzzb123 · 17-10-2013 12:05AM

I can't see how this is going to work either....IMO Gardai have more important matters to attend to and are already under severe pressure.

Yes welfare fraud is a problem however it is not the biggest problem that we are faced with. I do think *most* people WANT to work and make an honest living.

Yes welfare fraud is wrong, however, I feel the government should focus on issues that will reap rewards in both short and long term.

For example , expensive childcare is a MAJOR disincentive for many people to work full time. Both lone parents and couples are faced with this and in many cases it simply does not pay them to work. They are financially better off not working - these issues are more important than welfare fraud.

I think welfare fraud is a drop in the ocean as far as Irelands problems are concerned. I do not agree with it however I feel that catching welfare cheats could be done more efficiently through social welfare inspectors.

dxhound2005 · 17-10-2013 12:09AM

jonsnow wrote: »

ray burke did 4 and a half months in a secure wing which was like a holiday camp. His official pension payments alone are 3 million.So the irish justice system didn't exactly set down a marker there to discourage white collar crime.

Frank Dunlop was the bagman. His whole purpose was to take the fall for bigger fish if needs be. Which he duly did.

4 bankers indicted 5 years after their bank brings the whole country down. Trial to be held 6 years later and has every chance of resulting in a mistrial.

Ireland has a pathetic record in this area which is blatently obvious to any thinking person.

Any news on that Garda/DPP investigation into the Moriarty tribunals findings with regard to Denis O'Brien. Nearly 3 years after the tribunal reported.

But lets pull over a man in a white van.

If the white van man turns out to be working and claiming I don't think he would finish up in prison but he would suffer financially. Equally the best way to punish errant bankers is in their pockets. And it has happened as this detail from one of the Tax Defaulters quarterly list shows.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_10005345.shtml

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find other bankers in the lists as they go back many years. I have certainly noticed accountants, solicitors, landlords and politicians among those investigated and penalised.

dxhound2005 · 17-10-2013 12:10AM

buzzb123 wrote: »

I can't see how this is going to work either....IMO Gardai have more important matters to attend to and are already under severe pressure.

Yes welfare fraud is a problem however it is not the biggest problem that we are faced with. I do think *most* people WANT to work and make an honest living.

Yes welfare fraud is wrong, however, I feel the government should focus on issues that will reap rewards in both short and long term.

For example , expensive childcare is a MAJOR disincentive for many people to work full time. Both lone parents and couples are faced with this and in many cases it simply does not pay them to work. They are financially better off not working - these issues are more important than welfare fraud.

I think welfare fraud is a drop in the ocean as far as Irelands problems are concerned. I do not agree with it however I feel that catching welfare cheats could be done more efficiently through social welfare inspectors.

Why do people keep saying it is not going to work as if it is something brand new just starting up. It has been going for many years and has been working.

ivan itchyarse · 17-10-2013 12:14AM

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3664/3536449854_e26f9c5eb6_z.jpg?zz=1

where were they till now?

forgotten password · 17-10-2013 12:18AM

Ministerr Burton should grow a brain

dxhound2005 · 17-10-2013 12:21AM

forgotten password wrote: »

Monster Burton should grow a brain

She doesn't need a brain when your neighbours will report you for fraud.

http://www.thestar.ie/star/state-saves-nearly-e700m-as-nosy-neighbours-report-more-welfare-fraud-cases-19044/

Technoprisoner · 17-10-2013 12:23AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Why do people keep saying it is not going to work as if it is something brand new just starting up. It has been going for many years and has been working.

well maybe it will stop working once people realise they dont have to give these people any information if they are stopped at a checkpoint. The public should not be expected to be harassed in this way at all. As funny as it may sound, but by coming out and announcing to the public that check points will be set up sounds more and more like we live in a policed state.

dxhound2005 · 17-10-2013 12:27AM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

well maybe it will stop working once people realise they dont have to give these people any information if they are stopped at a checkpoint. The public should not be expected to be harassed in this way at all. As funny as it may sound, but by coming out and announcing to the public that check points will be set up sounds more and more like we live in a policed state.

I have never seen one, never mind being stopped at one. Have you? And I am living in a part of the country where I have read reports that they are more common than elsewhere. And they have been going since the 1990's so your assertion that it amounts to a police state hasn't proved to be the case.

Technoprisoner · 17-10-2013 12:34AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I have never seen one, never mind being stopped at one. Have you? And I am living in a part of the country where I have read reports that they are more common than elsewhere. And they have been going since the 1990's so your assertion that it amounts to a police state hasn't proved to be the case.

it does when a minister says on the record that there will be more checkpoints in industrial estates maned by both garda and revenue officals. sounds like a policed state to me

Mint Aero · 17-10-2013 12:35AM

How does this work?

Garda: Where you going?
Doley: Ehhhhh emmmm the shops

Garda: What's the tool box for?
Doley: Ehhhh emmmm it's a lunch box

Garda: Can I see inside?
Doley: This is a private domicile, do you have a warrant.....biiiitch.

Hurh hurh I do jest.

However Bruton, if you're reading Bruton. I've friends on the scratcher. They received a letter last week telling them to disregard their signon things.

So let me get this straight Bruton. Instead of the local boys talking to the boys in the big smooke and saying dont send out slips we got it covered. The boys in dublin send out defunct slips, and the other local boys send out letters to say it's defunct?!

Here Bruton, put 2 and 2 together there and stop printing millions of slip unnecessarily like that. It's a serious waste of money, you got that?.

dxhound2005 · 17-10-2013 12:38AM

Mint Aero wrote: »

How does this work?

Garda: Where you going?
Doley: Ehhhhh emmmm the shops
Garda: What's the tool box for?
Doley: Ehhhh emmmm it's a lunch box
Garda: Can I see inside?
Doley: This is a private domicile, do you have a warrant.....biiiitch.

Hurh hurh I do jest.

However Bruton, if you're reading Bruton. I've friends on the scratcher. They received a letter last week telling them to disregard their signon things.

So let me get this straight Bruton. Instead of the local boys talking to the boys in the big smooke and saying dont send out slips we got it covered. The boys in dublin send out defunct slips, and the other local boys send out letters to say it's defunct?!

Here Bruton, put 2 and 2 together there and stop printing millions of slip unnecessarily like that. It's a serious waste of money, you got that?.

Who is Bruton???

Mint Aero · 17-10-2013 12:39AM

Or burton, whatever your name is

Mint Aero · 17-10-2013 12:39AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Who is Bruton???

You just got in

Temptamperu · 17-10-2013 12:41AM

Anyone who thinks this is down to welfare fraud is of their rocker, this is just another chain the government can lash us with.

firemansam4 · 17-10-2013 12:42AM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

this wont work....the guards/welfare have no right to ask you where you are coming from or where are you going. unless a crime has been committed they have no right to ask you any questions

I would imagine the Guard would only need ask for an individuals name, then he would ask Mr social welfare officer to check if that said individual is a social welfare claimant, if the answer to that is yes and the said individual is lets say in a van or in working clothes or maybe has a car full of tools then he would be able to determine that there is a suspicion of welfare fraud, and on that basis the guard can start to question the said individual further on this.

Also there seems to be a lot of people stating that this will be treating everybody like they are guilty until proven innocent. If that's true then is it not already the case then with random breath checks - does that mean we are all treated like we are all drunk drivers until proven innocent?

B.A._Baracus · 17-10-2013 12:44AM

Over 130 thanks for this post?

Valetta wrote: »

Proper order.

If you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear and will be on your way in no time.

Far too many people scamming the system for my liking, and we're all paying for it.

Says who?

Honestly, how many people do you know who are scamming the system? ... never mind what the government or social welfare says. That's all divide and conquer crap. It's not the bankers fault or the mistakes made from yesterday past... Nah, its those "lazy scamming dole scumbags" is what is ruining this country?

How many do you know scamming?
I know quite a few people on the dole (i'm on the dole too) Most would love a nixer or under the table job to get by better. But it's not that easy mate. You can't just go up to johnny who owns the local chipper and say "give me a job johnny, pay me under the table" - It doesnt work like that. It's hard enough to get an actual prsi paying job let alone one that pays under the table.

Look we all know there are those scamming. But according to people on here it's 90% of SW recievers. Taking 4 holidays a year and driving a nice '13 car...

Temptamperu · 17-10-2013 12:45AM

People arent dying from welfare fraud where as drink drivers are so i can see the point in those.

JustAThought · 17-10-2013 12:45AM

Usual waste - why don't they run easy clear campaigns on who to ring/ write to to report " sole" parent & dole cheat fraud - people would be happy to tell on the cheats.

Everyone knows what's going on, rather than waste the gaurds time set up a phone line & then investigate them & bring them in every day for " interviews" if needs be - that will soon make them unavailable for work.

As usual , the waste in the Irish system is shocking. Couldn't organise a l1ss up in a brewery. Garda checkpoints ... Why don't they get the immigration at the airport to check & the DSW /whatever they've called it now to do some checking .

If you Make it Easy for people to report SW cheats by their car reg or addresses & by having on the spot ID checks in work for PPS numbers like they do in Holland & Germany you would take a big bite out of the problem.

As usual, even in a crisis, a politician can't even organise the most clear & effective solution.

The gaurds should be arresting criminals, clearing junkies & aggressive beggars from the streets & protecting " us" . Of course the elephant in the room is the impossible to comprehend car ownership by those whose culture is to refuse to work ; bets that won't be tackled in this - as usual.

I would also like a system where those who commit up each other & their families are rewarded, rather than those who cheat the system being given 100% rent & free houses. Why not reward commitment & family stability.

I would also like to see FAS and the visa allocation people actually correlate their records - why are we importing pastry chefs & waitresses & giving them visas to work when young Irish schoolleavers & stutdents can't find work : there shouldn't be 100+ PPS numbers issued per day from FAS on Parmell Street when there are 400,000 on the dole.

jonsnow · 17-10-2013 12:52AM

firemansam4 wrote: »

I would imagine the Guard would only need ask for an individuals name, then he would ask Mr social welfare officer to check if that said individual is a social welfare claimant, if the answer to that is yes and the said individual is lets say in a van or in working clothes or maybe has a car full of tools then he would be able to determine that there is a suspicion of welfare fraud, and on that basis the guard can start to question the said individual further on this.

No comment, no comment, no comment,

or

I was just going to fix my old mans boiler

dxhound2005 · 17-10-2013 12:53AM

JustAThought wrote: »

Usual waste - why don't they run easy clear campaigns on who to ring/ write to to report " sole" parent & dole cheat fraud - people would be happy to tell on the cheats.

Everyone knows what's going on, rather than waste the gaurds time set up a phone line & then investigate them & bring them in every day for " interviews" if needs be - that will soon make them unavailable for work.

As usual , the waste in the Irish system is shocking. Couldn't organise a l1ss up in a brewery. Garda checkpoints ... Why don't they get the immigration at the airport to check & the DSW /whatever they've called it now to do some checking .

If you Make it Easy for people to report SW cheats by their car reg or addresses & by having on the spot ID checks in work for PPS numbers like they do in Holland & Germany you would take a big bite out of the problem.

As usual, even in a crisis, a politician can't even organise the most clear & effective solution.

The gaurds should be arresting criminals, clearing junkies & aggressive beggars from the streets & protecting " us" . Of course the elephant in the room is the impossible to comprehend car ownership by those whose culture is to refuse to work ; bets that won't be tackled in this - as usual.

I would also like a system where those who commit up each other & their families are rewarded, rather than those who cheat the system being given 100% rent & free houses. Why not reward commitment & family stability.

I would also like to see FAS and the visa allocation people actually correlate their records - why are we importing pastry chefs & waitresses & giving them visas to work when young Irish schoolleavers & stutdents can't find work : there shouldn't be 100+ PPS numbers issued per day from FAS on Parmell Street when there are 400,000 on the dole.

It is quite easy to report fraud. This took me two seconds to find.

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/ReportFraud.aspx

Fred Swanson · 17-10-2013 01:03AM

This post has been deleted.

Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

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