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two days until US default deadline

124

Comments

  • #92
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    None of those countries have full control of monetary policy, they're forced by the troika to tackle budget deficits at present. That's not the case with the US and the Fed who can print their own money and buy their own bonds.

    Nonsense. They have full control. The truth is they share control across the EU. And that has meant that the disastrous wave of financial crisis blown across the US wasn't as bad as it could have been. The troika only arose when countries had to borrow more than they could afford in order to deal with the US caused mess.


  • #93
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I am pie wrote: »
    Right, because the EU isn't kicking any cans right now? Ireland, Greece, Spain, Italy...all hunky fcking dory it is?

    Glass houses.

    Nice try - but abject failure.

    No country in the EU suffers from the self inflicted political catastrophe the US is in now. Rampant bribery un an unprecedented scale. Unable to pass a budget without shutting down the government. Intentionally close to reneging on it's debts. Political paralysis.
    In the EU the greatest problems are the fall out of the financial crisis caused in the US and blown over to Europe to deal with.


  • #94
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Massive climb down by the teabaggers.

    They come out of this looking like petulant children.


  • #95
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Piliger wrote: »
    Nonsense. They have full control. The truth is they share control across the EU. And that has meant that the disastrous wave of financial crisis blown across the US wasn't as bad as it could have been. The troika only arose when countries had to borrow more than they could afford in order to deal with the US caused mess.
    No, that means none of them have control, we are the whims of the larger EU nation states, as to whether any recovery policies (monetary policy based or not) get enacted.

    This is not decided democratically, it is decided based on which member states are most powerful; we don't get a decision or choice, unless we have a centralized EU government which we have a vote on.


    You're looking in the right direction though however: All the solutions to our economic problems, rest with the EU collectively, and our own government is limited in their potential actions - our government isn't doing nearly enough to seek alternatives at an EU level though, or to even undertake what they are capable of locally (prosecuting fraud/crimes).

    Looks like the EU will never enact any solutions or meaningful reforms either, so we really need a government capable of acknowledging and addressing these serious EU-level issues (at an EU level), and deciding if our current role within the EU is still desirable, now that we see how it really works.

    We don't have a government capable of even discussing these issues though, and I don't think any other potential party would be capable of that either.


  • #96
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Piliger wrote: »
    Nice try - but abject failure.

    No country in the EU suffers from the self inflicted political catastrophe the US is in now. Rampant bribery un an unprecedented scale. Unable to pass a budget without shutting down the government. Intentionally close to reneging on it's debts. Political paralysis.
    In the EU the greatest problems are the fall out of the financial crisis caused in the US and blown over to Europe to deal with.
    Europe suffers from a self-inflicted monetary union, implemented in such a broken fashion that it was guaranteed to run into trouble, in an unresolvable way.

    The US manufactured a pantomime over their centralized debt and budget, whereas Europe is unable to even have the debate over centralized debt (debt at an EU level, not per-country, which would massively help resolve the crisis).


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  • #97
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Europe suffers from a self-inflicted monetary union, implemented in such a broken fashion that it was guaranteed to run into trouble, in an unresolvable way.
    Blatant nonsense you cannot support with any evidence. The EU has been a huge success, financially and economically and culturally.
    The US manufactured a pantomime over their centralized debt and budget, whereas Europe is unable to even have the debate over centralized debt (debt at an EU level, not per-country, which would massively help resolve the crisis).
    Europe has made structural changes to help it cope with the kind of tsunami inflicted on it by the US. The US has made no changes to it's banking or financial system. The EU is miles ahead on all counts.


  • #98
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    No, that means none of them have control, we are the whims of the larger EU nation states, as to whether any recovery policies (monetary policy based or not) get enacted.

    This is not decided democratically, it is decided based on which member states are most powerful; we don't get a decision or choice, unless we have a centralized EU government which we have a vote on.
    It is decided wholly democratically. All of our governments are voted in and each country has a vote in the Council. There are ample vetos that protect small countries who can also out vote the bigger ones in many ways.
    You're looking in the right direction though however: All the solutions to our economic problems, rest with the EU collectively, and our own government is limited in their potential actions - our government isn't doing nearly enough to seek alternatives at an EU level though, or to even undertake what they are capable of locally (prosecuting fraud/crimes).

    Looks like the EU will never enact any solutions or meaningful reforms either, so we really need a government capable of acknowledging and addressing these serious EU-level issues (at an EU level), and deciding if our current role within the EU is still desirable, now that we see how it really works.
    Drastically wrong. The EU has already implemented a raft of deep structural reforms over the last five years that will strengthen the whole EU banking and economic future. Yes it has happened slowly because of the need for consensus. This is in total contrast with the US, which has done almost nothing structurally about the financial system or the banking system. The Irish Gov has gained well deserved admiration across the EU throughout this process and have achieved influence and changes to original proposals way beyond our size as a country and our debt.

    Had we not been a close member of the EU and Euro zone, the financial crisis would have done ten times the damage to our economy and country and borrowing the money to get us out of the hole would have cost us far far more. We would be in Greece territory, with double the unemployment, had it not been for our position in the EU and the negotiation of the Gov.
    We don't have a government capable of even discussing these issues though, and I don't think any other potential party would be capable of that either.
    They have done a masterful job. That's the truth of it.


  • #99
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Piliger wrote: »
    Blatant nonsense you cannot support with any evidence. The EU has been a huge success, financially and economically and culturally.
    Eh? The Euro is a total failure:
    The economic crisis. The complete regulatory failure. The complete lack of any recovery policies. The complete lack of any new safeguards against future crisis. The incapability of using centralized debt, or monetary policy.

    The Euro could be a success story, but the way it is implemented and run, makes it a complete failure that was bound to blow up on us.
    Piliger wrote: »
    Europe has made structural changes to help it cope with the kind of tsunami inflicted on it by the US. The US has made no changes to it's banking or financial system. The EU is miles ahead on all counts.
    Greece is certainly not better than the US, and a US state can not end up like Greece, because there is a central government able to back-up spending in affected states.
    Piliger wrote: »
    It is decided wholly democratically. All of our governments are voted in and each country has a vote in the Council. There are ample vetos that protect small countries who can also out vote the bigger ones in many ways.
    Except governments often don't behave in their populations interests once they are voted in, and this problem is multiplied when you have multiple governments who only care about their own respective regions of Europe.
    Policies at an EU level are decided by Europe's collective governments, who are still engaged in a power-play among one another (despite being in the same political union), such that more powerful countries win out, over weaker ones.

    The German government doesn't give much of a toss about the Irish people, or Greek people, but still gets a disproportionate say in Europe, and prevents any kind of recovery.

    'Democracy' among a union of nations, where governments collectively decide EU-level policies, is not of the same quality of democracy, as a single directly elected government.
    If we had the latter, we would already be using centralized EU debt, not bickering over how much each region of Europe shoulders the burden (we would all be shouldering it equally).
    Piliger wrote: »
    Drastically wrong. The EU has already implemented a raft of deep structural reforms over the last five years that will strengthen the whole EU banking and economic future. Yes it has happened slowly because of the need for consensus. This is in total contrast with the US, which has done almost nothing structurally about the financial system or the banking system. The Irish Gov has gained well deserved admiration across the EU throughout this process and have achieved influence and changes to original proposals way beyond our size as a country and our debt.

    Had we not been a close member of the EU and Euro zone, the financial crisis would have done ten times the damage to our economy and country and borrowing the money to get us out of the hole would have cost us far far more. We would be in Greece territory, with double the unemployment, had it not been for our position in the EU and the negotiation of the Gov.

    They have done a masterful job. That's the truth of it.
    If Ireland were not in the Euro, our debt interest repayments would be a fraction of what they are, because we would not be at risk of involuntary default.

    Not having control over our own currency, makes our debt far more costly for starters.

    We still don't have an adequate regulatory system that can protect against future crisis, and we still haven't prosecuted fraud, as our current regulatory system should have; this gives the 'all clear' message to banking/finance, that they are free to do exactly the same thing again, which means a crisis like this will happen again.

    The US is so so much better off than us, that I really don't get how you see any way at all that Europe is managing well.


  • #100
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    If Ireland were not in the Euro, our debt interest repayments would be a fraction of what they are, because we would not be at risk of involuntary default.

    Not having control over our own currency, makes our debt far more costly for starters.

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-bond-yield

    Irish bond yields were at 15% back in 85.


  • #101
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-bond-yield

    Irish bond yields were at 15% back in 85.
    That was coming from a period of high inflation, which is going to make 10-year bonds look like a bad idea, no matter what you do.

    The crisis we are in now, puts us in a position where we have very low inflation. That said, I don't say this is the whole picture; the yield on bonds depends heavily on what government does, and if the money doesn't get used to grow the economy and restore full employment, higher interest rates are more likely.


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  • #102
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Eh? The Euro is a total failure:
    The economic crisis. The complete regulatory failure. The complete lack of any recovery policies. The complete lack of any new safeguards against future crisis. The incapability of using centralized debt, or monetary policy.
    I am afraid this just flies in the face of all facts. The only negative issues that the Euro has suffered have been caused by the tsunami of the US financial disaster that could not have been predicted. The Euro is still strong today and will be a major competitor to the dollar in the coming years, especially the way the GOP is undermining global confidence in the dollar.
    The Euro could be a success story, but the way it is implemented and run, makes it a complete failure that was bound to blow up on us.
    Again simply not supported by the facts.

    Greece is certainly not better than the US, and a US state can not end up like Greece, because there is a central government able to back-up spending in affected states.
    Greece is but one of 28 countries. Try harder.

    Except governments often don't behave in their populations interests once they are voted in, and this problem is multiplied when you have multiple governments who only care about their own respective regions of Europe.
    So you say. I don't see it that way. Except in the US of course where the House and Senate have basically been bought, as we have seen in the last few weeks.
    Policies at an EU level are decided by Europe's collective governments, who are still engaged in a power-play among one another (despite being in the same political union), such that more powerful countries win out, over weaker ones.
    What evidence do you have for that ? Smaller countries are now stronger than they have ever been, with an easy ability to outvote the big ones. You have completely conspiracy-theory model of how the EU works and it is wholly unpersuasive.
    The German government doesn't give much of a toss about the Irish people, or Greek people, but still gets a disproportionate say in Europe, and prevents any kind of recovery.
    Actually the German people have demonstrated over and over again that they care very much about Ireland the Irish people. And they have proved it by their actions over 30 years. Their financial generosity over that time, and especially in recent years, has been astounding and their persuasive and successful ways of tackling the current problems in Europe, caused by the US financial tsunami, has been and is being incredibly successful. Tight financial control and severe spending cuts.
    'Democracy' among a union of nations, where governments collectively decide EU-level policies, is not of the same quality of democracy, as a single directly elected government.
    So you say. I see no evidence of that.
    If we had the latter, we would already be using centralized EU debt, not bickering over how much each region of Europe shoulders the burden (we would all be shouldering it equally).
    And we would not have received tens of billions of euros to build a modern State with modern infrastructure and risen from the agricultural State we were before we joined the EU. Ireland has benefited gigantically and continues to benefit.
    If Ireland were not in the Euro, our debt interest repayments would be a fraction of what they are, because we would not be at risk of involuntary default.
    They would be far far higher. Our credit rating would have been written down to junk bond status and we would be a basket case country with 40% unemployment.
    Not having control over our own currency, makes our debt far more costly for starters.
    No. It made it a lot cheaper.
    We still don't have an adequate regulatory system that can protect against future crisis, and we still haven't prosecuted fraud, as our current regulatory system should have; this gives the 'all clear' message to banking/finance, that they are free to do exactly the same thing again, which means a crisis like this will happen again.
    Our regulatory system has been hugely improved in the last five years. And we actually had a very adequate regulatory system before, but sadly it was not used properly due to complacency and overwhelming demands by voters to spend spend spend. The EU has made major structural changes and we are miles ahead of the US in that regard. The prosecution of the bankers is still ongoing and is a sideline when compared with the importance of regulation and oversight.
    The US is so so much better off than us, that I really don't get how you see any way at all that Europe is managing well.
    The US is a basket case. It's government is in constant paralysis. It's Senate and House have been bought lock stock and barrel by big Corporations and extreme right wing nutjobs. It's infrastructure is on the point of collapse. The middle classes have been almost wiped out. It has 30+ million people without healthcare and a GOP that is cutting food stamps while increasing corporate handouts. It has 46+ million in poverty. It has many States actively legislating to stop black people and students from voting. It's Supreme Court has been totally politicised. You must be taking the p1$$. Europe is a comparative Shangri-la.


  • #103
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Ok I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat about this, as I don't think many here would seriously believe the claim that Europe is doing better than the US.

    To seal that argument, here is unemployment in the US:
    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/images/ted_20130403.png

    Versus unemployment in Europe:
    http://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/main/images/Unemployment-Europe.jpg


    Further backup for the US and EU unemployment numbers:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_unemployment_rate
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate

    More than half of Europe, is worse off in terms of unemployment, than any place in the US.


  • #104
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    What is this??, KB defending the US due to its more liberal and free market oriented economy where by unemployment is now a lot lower than the EU?


  • #105
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Piliger wrote: »

    No country in the EU suffers from the self inflicted political catastrophe the US is in now.

    The Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and Italians may disagree.
    Rampant bribery un an unprecedented scale. Unable to pass a budget without shutting down the government. Intentionally close to reneging on it's debts. Political paralysis.
    In the EU the greatest problems are the fall out of the financial crisis caused in the US and blown over to Europe to deal with.

    A little OTT. The financial industry's response is a good gauge and there was no panic, was much graver concern over, e.g. Cyprus


  • #106
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,646 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    The problem with the Euro is that everyone wanted the advantages of a single currency without the controls.


  • #107
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    jank wrote: »
    What is this??, KB defending the US due to its more liberal and free market oriented economy where by unemployment is now a lot lower than the EU?
    Proselytizing over free market 'theory', and shít-stirring (using the favoured method, of attributing words/views to someone, that were never said), all in one post; business as usual.

    The more worrying thing about that, is when people mistake it for anything substantive (and there's not even genuine humour value in it, when it's a completely made-up viewpoint).


  • #108
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    The Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and Italians may disagree.
    I know what you're saying but theirs was a financially self inflicted disaster. and then the fall out. Completely and utterly different from the chaos in the US.
    A little OTT. The financial industry's response is a good gauge and there was no panic, was much graver concern over, e.g. Cyprus
    I don't believe it is OTT. People are just not paying attention to the mindless nonsense that is happening their, the cost to their economy and the knock on affect here over the next year. The point about the stock exchange is really no indication of anything except the stock exchange.


  • #109
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    The problem with the Euro is that everyone wanted the advantages of a single currency without the controls.
    No one imagined the size of the financial crisis thrust on us, and how weak the banks were because of how so many of them held US dependent instruments.


  • #110
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Ok I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat about this, as I don't think many here would seriously believe the claim that Europe is doing better than the US.

    To seal that argument, here is unemployment in the US:
    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/images/ted_20130403.png

    Versus unemployment in Europe:
    http://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/main/images/Unemployment-Europe.jpg


    Further backup for the US and EU unemployment numbers:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_unemployment_rate
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate

    More than half of Europe, is worse off in terms of unemployment, than any place in the US.

    Do you really think anyone takes that nonsense seriously ????

    Unemployment in the US is a completely different animal. Millions upon millions are not counted because they don't qualify for any assistance. Their real rate is far far higher.

    And what on earth has that to do with the Euro ? You really are losing it here.


  • #111
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Piliger wrote: »
    I know what you're saying but theirs was a financially self inflicted disaster. and then the fall out. Completely and utterly different from the chaos in the US.

    The markets were relatively calm and they have the most to lose. I would have described the mood as cautious but confident

    Two inches of snow on the roads - now that's chaos.


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  • #112
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    The markets were relatively calm and they have the most to lose. I would have described the mood as cautious but confident

    Two inches of snow on the roads - now that's chaos.

    " .... more than two-week long government shutdown has cost the economy $24 billion — or $1.5 billion per day — reducing S&P’s September forecast of 3 percent annualized fourth-quarter 2013 GDP growth and shaving off 0.6 percent, according to a press release.

    Read more: http://business.time.com/2013/10/16/sp-says-government-shutdown-cost-economy-24-billion/#ixzz2i57ptU4w"
    Reference

    At a time when the rest of the world, and Ireland, are just starting to turn the corner we need the American economy to grow. This set back will have a knock on affect on us.


  • #113
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Piliger wrote: »
    Do you really think anyone takes that nonsense seriously ????

    Unemployment in the US is a completely different animal. Millions upon millions are not counted because they don't qualify for any assistance. Their real rate is far far higher.

    And what on earth has that to do with the Euro ? You really are losing it here.
    I'd stopped debating about the Euro because every argument in response was a tit-for-tat "it ain't so" blanket denial, adamant that the Euro (and Europe) is free from criticism - in my eyes a financial crisis (not predicting the current one, but that one would happen eventually), and the fact that the Euro was setup in a way that it wasn't able to handle that adequately (a regulatory system is as powerful as its enforcement, not much else), makes it a massive failure, that would have been far better if we had:
    1: A centralized regulatory system with real enforcement.
    2: Counter-cyclical (deficit spending) mechanisms implemented centrally, that can utilize EU bonds for funding (which would ameliorate the economic destruction in the worst off EU nations).

    Without that, the monetary union is half-implemented at best (missing many of the measures needed to keep it stable), and I'm really not convinced we are anywhere near achieving the above two points; the day I see financial fraudsters properly investigated and put in prison, and a program utilizing the full power of Europe's resources to rebuild economies and end unemployment, is when I agree that system will be complete.


    I am however, coming-round to a more negative view of the US compared to earlier; the U6 unemployment rate, does indeed seem to be worse.


  • #114
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Proselytizing over free market 'theory', and shít-stirring (using the favoured method, of attributing words/views to someone, that were never said), all in one post; business as usual.

    The more worrying thing about that, is when people mistake it for anything substantive (and there's not even genuine humour value in it, when it's a completely made-up viewpoint).

    Do you have any point to make or do you love using a thesaurus to attack the poster.


  • #115
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    jank wrote: »
    Do you have any point to make or do you love using a thesaurus to attack the poster.

    You posting this is delicious ironing.


  • #116
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Seaneh wrote: »
    You posting this is delicious ironing.

    Ah, the Cavalry arrives at dawn it seems!

    Look at my original post. One of the main reasons why unemployment is so high in the euro zone (and getting higher every month) and lower in the US (and getting lower every month) is because of the more flexible labour market that exists in the US. This is because they employ a purer version of the free market than the EU where state bodies and unions rule the roast in many countries such as Italy, France, Greece and Ireland. Example, car manufacturing is booming in right to work states like North Carolina while Detroit we'll ... Let's not go there.

    KB instead of debating this point just went in the usual tirade of how I'm wrong cause... We'll cause it's stupid, using more elegant and elaborate language. In fact he refuses to debate me since I dismantled his precious thought experiment by me posing the simple question of national deficits and surpluses and refuses to to clarify how a government will enforce how one has to use their mandated currencies even if said currency turns out to be toilet paper. Real practical scenarios don't really wash with KB who turns every thread into a crusade trying to convince people we should burn tax revenue.


  • #117
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    jank wrote: »
    Ah, the Cavalry arrives at dawn it seems!

    Look at my original post. One of the main reasons why unemployment is so high in the euro zone (and getting higher every month) and lower in the US (and getting lower every month) is because of the more flexible labour market that exists in the US. This is because they employ a purer version of the free market than the EU where state bodies and unions rule the roast in many countries such as Italy, France, Greece and Ireland. Example, car manufacturing is booming in right to work states like North Carolina while Detroit we'll ... Let's not go there.

    KB instead of debating this point just went in the usual tirade of how I'm wrong cause... We'll cause it's stupid, using more elegant and elaborate language. In fact he refuses to debate me since I dismantled his precious thought experiment by me posing the simple question of national deficits and surpluses and refuses to to clarify how a government will enforce how one has to use their mandated currencies even if said currency turns out to be toilet paper. Real practical scenarios don't really wash with KB who turns every thread into a crusade trying to convince people we should burn tax revenue.
    Well this is a new one; not content with reinterpreting my posts into saying completely different things, or placing imaginary viewpoints in my mouth (all while dishing out as much hyperbole/sneering against me and these imaginary viewpoints as you can), you've now made up an entire imaginary debate that we never had.

    Here's a full summary of your posts to me in this entire thread (excluding the one I'm replying to):
    jank wrote: »
    What is this??, KB defending the US due to its more liberal and free market oriented economy where by unemployment is now a lot lower than the EU?
    jank wrote: »
    Do you have any point to make or do you love using a thesaurus to attack the poster.
    Reading them back both together, anyone could be forgiven, for mistaking that as you talking to yourself.

    That would not be unusual though, as you do spend most of the time replying to your own imaginary constructs.


  • #118
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Well then perhaps you can answer the following questions I possed to you numerous times, yet you have not answered.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86978714&postcount=183
    You said the following.

    and because nobody can use another currency (due to government-enforced monopoly); on the scale of the wider economy people simply have no choice, they must use the government-mandated currency

    What laws would you pass to make sure the above would happen?
    How would you enforce this?
    How can you make people use government-mandated currency for all their day to day trade and living?
    Would you outlaw foreign exchange, bitcoin, paypal?

    It would not take the entire population to go 'mad' and enter mass delusion (example 1, celtic tiger) as you put it but the people with money, capital and with means would, in a heartbeat sell the currency and buy something they would trust.
    Are you saying that nobody would do this?
    Are you saying that the government would stop them?
    If so how?

    Do you not think that it is disingenuous to not even entertain the possibility that governments can have surpluses or deficits in your thought experiment?

    Thank you :)

    Thank you :)


  • #119
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Ah I see, so when you said:
    "Look at my original post. One of the main reasons why unemployment is so high in the euro zone...".

    You really meant:
    "Look at my post, in a different thread, on a different subforum, made a week ago, that I don't mention anything about, which doesn't have anything to do with unemployment, or the Eurozone, or the thread in general...but go look at it anyway"

    I even replied to that post in the thread you linked.


    It's strange this pattern among a handful of the free-market posters, where they are not perturbed at all when their posts are shown as deliberately misleading, but it instead causes some of them to dig in even more, and even to escalate the facetiousness, to try and pretend a failed argument, was really just an attempt at 'intelligent trolling' or some such (i.e. to pretend they were just joking/trolling all along - as a kind of 'get out' clause).

    There are a fair few of them, that routinely switch between 'serious' and 'trolling/just-joking' mode, to try and pass off their arguments as serious, while (when contested with something they can't answer) having the ability to pretend they were 'just trolling', to get out of ever having to face up to anything.

    Normally it isn't so easy to spot, just in this case, it's so poorly executed it's a bit more obvious.


  • #120
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    You replied but didn't answer my question or any question actually, you just went on the usual rant like you did above. Your like a politician. You say a lot without saying anything.


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  • #121
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    jank wrote: »
    Look at my original post. One of the main reasons why unemployment is so high in the euro zone (and getting higher every month) and lower in the US (and getting lower every month) is because of the more flexible labour market that exists in the US.

    Can we please get this straight everyone - subject of course to errors in my info. US unemployment is NOT lower or systemically lower than EU unemployment.

    I refer you to the REAL unemployment stats in the US as opposed to the ridiculous ones quoted by the US gov which just ignore millions and millions of people out of work.

    Thus the real rate in the US is 14.3% and MUCH higher in some states. While in the Eurozone it is about 12.1% and the EU at 11%.


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