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Walter White-final conclusions (final episode spoilers)

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    #32
    ColeTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ColeTrain


    sReq | uTeK wrote: »
    In years to come they will be studying Walter white in schools around the globe instead of Shakespeare :)

    A pound of Meth instead of flesh no doubt


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    #33
    dougm1970
    Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭dougm1970


    there'll be so much money thrown in the direction of resurrecting the franchise somehow...more money than perhaps any series in television history.

    walt...lying on the ground...passed out...rushed to hospital....saved by a hairs breath on last cpr attempt and spends 3 months in a coma.

    recovers...cancer being treated too....sent to jail...broken out by drug cartels who want him to cook....etc etc..


    very long shot, i know...but stranger things have happened in tv land.


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    #34
    Riddle101
    Registered Users Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    The thing I gets to me about Breaking Bad. Imagine if Walter got into the meth business much earlier in his life when he was younger. How different would his character be if he had a lifetime of it. Would he have been Gus maybe? He was king of the mountain for such a short time, he could have been even more dangerous over time.


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    #35
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    Walt got lucky I think. It was a fluke that he managed to come across the one chink in Gus' armour. He really shouldn't have survived his crossing with Gus at all.


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    #36
    Chet T16
    Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭Chet T16


    In fairness, Gus should have been blown up in the carpark


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    #37
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    Chet T16 wrote: »
    In fairness, Gus should have been blown up in the carpark
    Hmm, guess you're right there tbh.


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    #38
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,107 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Andrea and Brock made Jessie happy, they also made him weak and an easy target. Walt and Uncle Jack/Todd preyed on this, both for different reasons. Walt may have been jealous at Jessie being happy or just thought they were an unwelcome distraction for Jessie. Todd and his uncle just used them as a way to keep Jessie in line,killing Andrea when Jessie decided to run but leaving Brock alive. I would imagine it would have been tv suicide to kill Brock instead of his mother but it would have made more sense IMO.


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    #39
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    snausages wrote: »
    Walt got lucky I think.

    Indeed. He got lucky in so many ways. He thought he was more invincible than he was, and didn't realise how close he came on a number of occasions.


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    #40
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    My conclusion on Walter White is not that different as to what I thought when I first started watching the show. I saw the situations he found himself in and thought, would I have acted any different? The first two kills were in self defence but if he was to get caught at the stage of say, the RV getting crushed, he would be found out for those murders which I doubt would be trialled as self defence. So, up to the start of season five, my view was not of him 'Breaking Bad' rather than an earlier mistake that snow balled into catastrophe due to the lies and kills that needed to happen in order to protect himself and his family. Much of the bad things that happened, happened because of Jesse. The attachment to Jesse only occurred because of the unfortunate circumstances they shared under Gus Fring.

    Walt had hardened to seeing and committing murder. The path he went down to get to that point was not out of his wish to become the baddie he became. It was a point of no return and all made acceptable to himself because of the fact he was literally getting away with murder. Obviously all unforgivable but, and this may make me look like a not so nice human myself, understandable. Would I have done anything different? Yes, but maybe mostly because I don't have his genius to get out of the mess he found himself in. That's what hooked me on this show. Really questions how far you would go to cover up a bad move.

    Or was that just me?


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    #41
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    greenflash wrote: »
    Todd was an out and out psychopath, not a sociopath. He had manners, etiquette and civility, yet thought nothing of murdering and torturing anyone put in front of him.

    Psychopath and sociopath are used interchangeably, they refer to the same thing.


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    #42
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Monkey Allen wrote: »
    My conclusion on Walter White is not that different as to what I thought when I first started watching the show. I saw the situations he found himself in and thought, would I have acted any different? The first two kills were in self defence but if he was to get caught at the stage of say, the RV getting crushed, he would be found out for those murders which I doubt would be trialled as self defence. So, up to the start of season five, my view was not of him 'Breaking Bad' rather than an earlier mistake that snow balled into catastrophe due to the lies and kills that needed to happen in order to protect himself and his family. Much of the bad things that happened, happened because of Jesse. The attachment to Jesse only occurred because of the unfortunate circumstances they shared under Gus Fring.

    Walt had hardened to seeing and committing murder. The path he went down to get to that point was not out of his wish to become the baddie he became. It was a point of no return and all made acceptable to himself because of the fact he was literally getting away with murder. Obviously all unforgivable but, and this may make me look like a not so nice human myself, understandable. Would I have done anything different? Yes, but maybe mostly because I don't have his genius to get out of the mess he found himself in. That's what hooked me on this show. Really questions how far you would go to cover up a bad move.

    Or was that just me?

    Walt was going to die anyway.mhis consequences were entirely different to those of Jesse who would be a in,ice in a federal prison. WW was taken over by evil.

    Jesse did bad things but when he connected with children he rediscovered his moral compass.

    You can't blame all the bad stuff on Jesse. WW made some stupid hubristic mistakes.


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    #43
    Riddle101
    Registered Users Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    OhHiMark wrote: »
    Psychopath and sociopath are used interchangeably, they refer to the same thing.

    There are differences

    http://voices.yahoo.com/sociopath-vs-psychopath-there-difference-1906224.html


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    #44
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Walt was going to die anyway.mhis consequences were entirely different to those of Jesse who would be a in,ice in a federal prison. WW was taken over by evil.

    Jesse did bad things but when he connected with children he rediscovered his moral compass.

    You can't blame all the bad stuff on Jesse. WW made some stupid hubristic mistakes.

    You misread my post and I think it's surprising that anyone would not see Jesse as the clumsy partner in that relationship. However, clumsy or not, Walt was free of him just before Hank beat him up. Then, because Jesse was threatening to squeal, Walt had to offer him partnership in Gus' job offer.


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    #45
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Monkey Allen wrote: »
    You misread my post and I think it's surprising that anyone would not see Jesse as the clumsy partner in that relationship. However, clumsy or not, Walt was free of him just before Hank beat him up. Then, because Jesse was threatening to squeal, Walt had to offer him partnership in Gus' job offer.

    The way I look at it is Jesse would have been better off if he'd never have met WW.

    Jesse broke good when he squeeled to Hank.


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    #46
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    The way I look at it is Jesse would have been better off if he'd never have met WW.

    Jesse broke good when he squeeled to Hank.
    When Walt blackmailed Jesse into working with him, Jesse was already in the meth cooking business. At that stage neither of them saw murder in their future. Jesse would have continued his career as a low grade cook/dealer as well as addict. You could say that Walt probably kept him out of prison.

    But the journey they started involved many errors of judgement or acts of stupidity from Jesse, far more so than Walt. Let's not forget Jesse bringing Crazy EIght to the cook site which led to his killing as well as Emilio's. Jesse approaching the two street dealers with a gun to avenge Andreas brothers murder. He would have been killed but Walt needed to protect him and so jeapordised his business arrangement with Gus for Jesses sake. Jesse being high when trying to strike the important deal with Gus. Jesse leaving the keys I the ignition of the RV. Jesse throwing all the water over Fire when there was a fire extinguisher. Jesse throwing his money all over town only to get end up in police custody which eventually led to his confession.

    Jesse's clumsiness only seem to happen when he was off his face on drugs. When he as sober, he was smart and very insightful. But his drug habit was his doing and resulted in the undoing of many of Walts plans. But it made great tv as otherwise it would have been another typical American TV show with a genius that always calculates correctly his and everyone else's next three moves.


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    #47
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Monkey Allen wrote: »
    When Walt blackmailed Jesse into working with him, Jesse was already in the meth cooking business. At that stage neither of them saw murder in their future. Jesse would have continued his career as a low grade cook/dealer as well as addict. You could say that Walt probably kept him out of prison.

    But the journey they started involved many errors of judgement or acts of stupidity from Jesse, far more so than Walt. Let's not forget Jesse bringing Crazy EIght to the cook site which led to his killing as well as Emilio's. Jesse approaching the two street dealers with a gun to avenge Andreas brothers murder. He would have been killed but Walt needed to protect him and so jeapordised his business arrangement with Gus for Jesses sake. Jesse being high when trying to strike the important deal with Gus. Jesse leaving the keys I the ignition of the RV. Jesse throwing all the water over Fire when there was a fire extinguisher. Jesse throwing his money all over town only to get end up in police custody which eventually led to his confession.

    Jesse's clumsiness only seem to happen when he was off his face on drugs. When he as sober, he was smart and very insightful. But his drug habit was his doing and resulted in the undoing of many of Walts plans. But it made great tv as otherwise it would have been another typical American TV show with a genius that always calculates correctly his and everyone else's next three moves.

    Jesse was way in over his head.

    But WW made a lot of stupid mistakes that led to a spiral of destruction. Like dealing on other people's turf, like Tuco,. It was WWs hubris that brought them both down. Lets not forget WW made Jesse go to crazy eight in the first place.


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    #48
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Jesse was way in over his head.

    But WW made a lot of stupid mistakes that led to a spiral of destruction. Like dealing on other people's turf, like Tuco,. It was WWs hubris that brought them both down. Lets not forget WW made Jesse go to crazy eight in the first place.
    Walt didn't deal on Tucos turf. He had an arrangement to sell to Tuco directly. I don't disagree that Walt made mistakes. But, Jesse was the calamity in that partnership who caused many situations/opportunities to fall apart. Walt requested him to approach Crazy Eight as Jesse had advised they were 'tight'. A character judgement mistake from Jesse. Obviously the character judgement mistake by Walt on Jesse led to all the events that unfolded.


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    #49
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    I binge watched the series to catch up for the finale.

    I'm currently re watching at a slower pace so I can process it better.

    WW knew jesses character. It wasn't an erroneous judgement call, he just chose to overlook it because he trusted Jesse and Jesse did what WW told him to do. I also believe WW deep down loved Jesse like a son. Maybe others don't, but I do.

    I watched the scene again when WW watches Jane die. WW just had a daughter. It's not far off to imagine he was having some kind of parent transference there, when his immediate impulses are to do something to stop the choking. The dear and concern are evident. But he stops himself, he thinks again. When I first watched this scene I thought he let her die because it was convenient for him, there's no one to blackmail him and he can get Jesse back on board.

    But on second viewing, despite the very obvious remorse he feels for letting her die, it occurred to me he might feel if she sticks around, she no doubt will lead Jesse into an overdose and kill him. And if he does love Jesse like a son, he might just be feeling that way, that he has to let her die in order to to save Jesse.

    Maybe both impulses were at play.

    As for Jesses stupidity. Jesse has a big mouth. That has always been his weak point. Always wanted approval, always was looking for love from his surrogate dad, WW and always blabbing. But Jesse is not a scientist, and yet Jesse came up with the idea for the battery in the desert, the magnet idea for the files in evidence, and a few other ideas I can't recall right now. Jesse was not cut out for this work and WW kept reeling him back in, even though WW would die of cancer soon enough, but Jesse was a young man who had the consequences of a life in federal prison.

    Jesses instincts were to get out of that job, and his instincts were right, not stupid.


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    #50
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    The bond between Walt and Jesse was not there at the start. It was formed when they shared moments such as their very first earnings from them both working hard on the cook and sale as well as other moments such as Tuco kidnapping them. Jesse could easily have been killed off by Tuco at no loss to Walt but Walt refused to work for Tuco if Jesse was killed. A favour that was repayed by Jesse when he refused to cook for Gus if Walt was killed.

    Jesse's errors were only made when he was using. When he stopped, he showed his true intelligence and potential. But, he created most of the mess he found himself in. Let's not forget that he continued to cook in the RV against Walts wishes and was eventually was put Hank on his trail. Walt had to react to that as his finger prints were all over it. This then led to Hank beating up Jesse who then threatened to rat out Walt as it would have screwed Hank due to Heissenberg being right under his nose all the time. Walt had to then offer a partnership with Jesse for the Gus Fring deal. If it was a Walt/Gail setup, it would have been easy money with minimal risk. Jesse comes on board and, after stealing parts of the cook that went over the required amount (which Walt spoke to him about), he then reacts out of pure emotion and targeted the street dealers. This led to Walt acting out of pure emotion to save Jesse. Who was responsible for that situation? Definitely Jesse. It put the relationship with Gus on very thin ice and led to the plot to 'phase out' Walt once Gail got up to speed on Walts cooking standard. Jesse put Walt in that position. Was it right to see Gail as collateral damage just to save his own skin? No, but I guess Walt was a wounded animal at that stage and needed to act.

    I guess what I'm getting at is, Walt could have had a fantastic setup as a crystal meth cook and actually got to a stage where he had all he needed to do that. But Jesse ruined it for him.


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    #51
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Monkey Allen wrote: »
    The bond between Walt and Jesse was not there at the start. It was formed when they shared moments such as their very first earnings from them both working hard on the cook and sale as well as other moments such as Tuco kidnapping them. Jesse could easily have been killed off by Tuco at no loss to Walt but Walt refused to work for Tuco if Jesse was killed. A favour that was repayed by Jesse when he refused to cook for Gus if Walt was killed.

    Jesse's errors were only made when he was using. When he stopped, he showed his true intelligence and potential. But, he created most of the mess he found himself in. Let's not forget that he continued to cook in the RV against Walts wishes and was eventually was put Hank on his trail. Walt had to react to that as his finger prints were all over it. This then led to Hank beating up Jesse who then threatened to rat out Walt as it would have screwed Hank due to Heissenberg being right under his nose all the time. Walt had to then offer a partnership with Jesse for the Gus Fring deal. If it was a Walt/Gail setup, it would have been easy money with minimal risk. Jesse comes on board and, after stealing parts of the cook that went over the required amount (which Walt spoke to him about), he then reacts out of pure emotion and targeted the street dealers. This led to Walt acting out of pure emotion to save Jesse. Who was responsible for that situation? Definitely Jesse. It put the relationship with Gus on very thin ice and led to the plot to 'phase out' Walt once Gail got up to speed on Walts cooking standard. Jesse put Walt in that position. Was it right to see Gail as collateral damage just to save his own skin? No, but I guess Walt was a wounded animal at that stage and needed to act.

    I guess what I'm getting at is, Walt could have had a fantastic setup as a crystal meth cook and actually got to a stage where he had all he needed to do that. But Jesse ruined it for him.

    Jesse ratted out Walt because he poisoned Brock.

    Jesse does not have a criminal mind but Walt trusts him. Walt would not have gotten anywhere without Jesse. Jesse wanted out every time a child died,and WW roped him back in.

    Jesse "ruined it for him?" Lol. Good. WW is a man strangle hosed by evil responsible for over 200 deaths he could care less about. Jesse is irredeemably damaged from it and will love out the rest of his adulthood destroyed because WW called in those Nazi inbreds.


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    #52
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Jesse ratted out Walt because he poisoned Brock.

    Jesse does not have a criminal mind but Walt trusts him. Walt would not have gotten anywhere without Jesse. Jesse wanted out every time a child died,and WW roped him back in.

    Jesse "ruined it for him?" Lol. Good. WW is a man strangle hosed by evil responsible for over 200 deaths he could care less about. Jesse is irredeemably damaged from it and will love out the rest of his adulthood destroyed because WW called in those Nazi inbreds.
    I was talking about when he threatened to rat out Walt when he was in hospital after being beat up by Hank. He was in the hospital because Walt got him out of the RV situation. But Jesse didn't see it like that. Walt then offered partnership with Jesse in exchange for his silence. That is very important information as it ruined the good business arrangement Walt had just started with Gus. So yes, Jesse, out of his drug fueled stupidity, ruined it for Walt.

    This thread has opened my eyes that not every viewer was on Walts side. Must have been a massive kick in the guts to watch the last episode of season four for those people.


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    #53
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Monkey Allen wrote: »
    I was talking about when he threatened to rat out Walt when he was in hospital after being beat up by Hank. He was in the hospital because Walt got him out of the RV situation. But Jesse didn't see it like that. Walt then offered partnership with Jesse in exchange for his silence. That is very important information as it ruined the good business arrangement Walt had just started with Gus. So yes, Jesse, out of his drug fueled stupidity, ruined it for Walt.

    This thread has opened my eyes that not every viewer was on Walts side. Must have been a massive kick in the guts to watch the last episode of season four for those people.

    Ok I'll have to watch that part again.

    No not everybody was on team Walt, not just on this thread but overall.

    I have mixed feelings that changed over the course of the series, but my sympathies lied far more with Jesse than Walt.


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    #54
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    There are differences

    http://voices.yahoo.com/sociopath-vs-psychopath-there-difference-1906224.html
    There's not. That article you posted is an amateur puff-piece that cites sources that directly contradict it (or simply do not support its thesis), if you actually read them.

    For example it cites Wikipedia, yet if one looks up sociopathy, one finds that it's "refers to conditions similar to or synonymous with" psychopathy or ASPD, in direct contradiction of what the article claimed.

    In reality, there's no actual agreed difference between the two terms. Where a difference is claimed, some do so on the basis of violent tendencies, or on the causes behind the condition.

    Ultimately, psychopathy is the older term (nid-19th century). Sociopathy was later coined in 1909 as an alternative; so as to better reflect what was believed to be the environmental causes of the condition. However, no real difference between them is recognised by the psychiatric community as a whole, to this day.


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    #55
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    It doesn't really matter what label you slap or don't slap on WW. He succumbs to the grips of evil.


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    #56
    Mr.Saturn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,919 ✭✭✭Mr.Saturn


    clairefontaine wrote: »

    But on second viewing, despite the very obvious remorse he feels for letting her die, it occurred to me he might feel if she sticks around, she no doubt will lead Jesse into an overdose and kill him. And if he does love Jesse like a son, he might just be feeling that way, that he has to let her die in order to to save Jesse.

    This'd be corroborated by the 'Fly' episode, where WW gleams some sort of absolution-by-proxy when Jesse offers the 'Two junkies with a bag full of cash? We would've been dead within a week' line in respone to Walt's fuzzy, muttered condolences.

    The motivation is also made very clear too by the scene immediately before Jane's death; where Walt refers to Jesse as his son when yarning with Jane's dad in the bar, and, as consequence, Mr.White sets out to Pinkman's gaf with a view to sorting out Jesse's affairs in a very paternal fashion.


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    #57
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    Mr.Saturn wrote: »
    This'd be corroborated by the 'Fly' episode, where WW gleams some sort of absolution-by-proxy when Jesse offers the 'Two junkies with a bag full of cash? We would've been dead within a week' line in respone to Walt's fuzzy, muttered condolences.

    The motivation is also made very clear too by the scene immediately before Jane's death; where Walt refers to Jesse as his son when yarning with Jane's dad in the bar, and, as consequence, Mr.White sets out to Pinkman's gaf with a view to sorting out Jesse's affairs in a very paternal fashion.

    I'd forgotten a lot of those details. I'd still maintain it was mostly for Walt's own sake that he let Jane die though.


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    #58
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    snausages wrote: »
    I'd forgotten a lot of those details. I'd still maintain it was mostly for Walt's own sake that he let Jane die though.
    I agree. Jane flat out blackmailed Walt.


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    #59
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Monkey Allen wrote: »
    I agree. Jane flat out blackmailed Walt.

    Yes, and he gave into it until he had the chat with Janes dad in the bar, remember, the family- never give up on them, so he went back to try again.


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    #60
    Monkey Allen
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Monkey Allen


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Yes, and he gave into it until he had the chat with Janes dad in the bar, remember, the family- never give up on them, so he went back to try again.
    But he didn't go to his house to kill Jane. I guess no one will know what was in his mind when he chose not to put Jane back on her side.


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    #61
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Monkey Allen wrote: »
    But he didn't go to his house to kill Jane. I guess no one will know what was in his mind when he chose not to put Jane back on her side.

    Opportunity knocked. He was faced with a choice and that's what he chose.


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