Walter White-final conclusions (final episode spoilers)

Liam O

So now that it's all said and done what are the conclusions that can be made on the character of Walt? At a certain stage he looked irredeemable but have his actions in the final couple of episodes changed that? I'm still on the fence and wanted to gauge others reactions.

scamalert

Best episode in the entire series ? No
But ending itself i think is right,yes there was a bit dramatization with machine gun,roaming streets around town,but otherwise everything seems resolved,as for W.W i think ending was perfect,he accepted what he did and who he became,he was never a killer,nor some sort of psycho,Just someone who evolved into evil person as series went.I believe many expected more from last episode,but theres so little time to cramp up all the action into 55min of the show.
All in total there will be hardly another series so intense and interesting like Br Bad,in upcoming future.
Another factor that many will miss is part of Hanks finding and junior receiving money,but when you think in General those events aren't really of much importance.

mloc123

In the end he admitted that he enjoyed doing it, no more hiding behind the fact he was forced into it to help his family... This redeemed him somewhat for me, and being honest with Jesse.

clairefontaine

He got everything he wanted in the end and left a trail,of devastation behind him.

In the last hour, he did as best as could be expected in tyeing up loose ends, so maybe he found redemption for himself, but the damage in his legacy is irredeemable.

PhiloCypher

I'm finding it hard to put into words how I feel about the finale. On the one hand that ending feels like the most natural thing in the world( maybe it was the only way of tying up all those loose ends in a satisfying way) pulling something off like that was always in Walt/Heisenbergs wheelhouse as we saw with Gus and the train robbery and just like then there was a visceral thrill in seeing him pulling it off, but it somehow feels a little wrong to me to leave this man who we have seen kill poison or corrupt everyone around him on a moment of triumph as he vanquishes his enemies.

As I've said tho that may well have been the only satisfying way to end it idk and if they had ended it less neatly I'd probably be sat hear complaining about a lack of closure so the writers can't win really.

Whatever my misgivings over them giving Walt Wins on just about every part of his plan it was still one of the best finales of a tv show I've ever seen.

Dermighty

The only parts of the finale I liked were his admission that he did it for himself and the Ricin poisoning, everything else was bland, imo. A good ending nonetheles.

hfallada

I think the meth was to show the world he was a genius. In the first season in the episode grey matter, we see he was part of a company, that was a billion dollar company. He missed out on his chance there to be great. But ended up being a ****ty high school chemistry teacher with no life and dying.

By being Heisenberg he was the best meth cooker in America. And had the exciting life with money that he should have had with grey matter. He finally died making something of his life, even if it wasnt a morally right living. He didnt want to live a boring life. But he made sure that all the "evil" people that could harm his family were taken care of first. He wasn't a ruthless killer. He made sure the people he killed were dark and deserved it like the Mexican in the basement that Walt gave a second chance. But seen he was going to kill walt, so Walt killed him.

Walt was very like tony soprano. Although they both seem on the surface as bad and evil people. They geniuely cared about their family and seen what they were doing as job and not doing it for that sake of it.

clairefontaine

hfallada wrote: »

I think the meth was to show the world he was a genius. In the first season in the episode grey matter, we see he was part of a company, that was a billion dollar company. He missed out on his chance there to be great. But ended up being a ****ty high school chemistry teacher with no life and dying.

By being Heisenberg he was the best meth cooker in America. And had the exciting life with money that he should have had with grey matter. He finally died making something of his life, even if it wasnt a morally right living. He didnt want to live a boring life. But he made sure that all the "evil" people that could harm his family were taken care of first. He wasn't a ruthless killer. He made sure the people he killed were dark and deserved it like the Mexican in the basement that Walt gave a second chance. But seen he was going to kill walt, so Walt killed him.

Walt was very like tony soprano. Although they both seem on the surface as bad and evil people. They geniuely cared about their family and seen what they were doing as job and not doing it for that sake of it.

They cared about their family? They were both entirely amoral sociopaths.

banquo

In fairness, the ending would have been more enjoyable non die-hard fans like us who've spent every waking our theorising about what would happen in the finale. Loads of casual watchers who stayed up to stream were part of our BB Spoilers fb group were totally surprised that the ricin was for Lydia, where for us it was 90% expected. We didn't get any surprises because we'd been thinking about them since Blood Money.

gimli2112

Haven't seen season 5 but I've a different view on WW. I have a lot of sympathy for him. Think he started off basically good and was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He could never extricate himself from the situation. Don't remember him ever being very happy about it and he was always trying to get out.
The whole "I did it all for me" just doesn't ring true but as I said I haven't seen the last season and it's been a while since I watched it.

2ndcoming

clairefontaine wrote: »

They cared about their family? They were both entirely amoral sociopaths.

They were extremely different characters, linked only really by being the main protagonists in two dramas in which family and crime were major themes, and arguably neither of them were amoral sociopaths.

WW certainly wasn't, he was playing a game and high on power until the death of his brother-in-law brought him back to earth with a bang. Tony struggled with guilt, panic attacks and whether he would go to hell for how he lived his life.

Todd was an amoral sociopath. Tuco was probably one as well.

2ndcoming

hfallada wrote: »

I think the meth was to show the world he was a genius. In the first season in the episode grey matter, we see he was part of a company, that was a billion dollar company. He missed out on his chance there to be great. But ended up being a ****ty high school chemistry teacher with no life and dying.

By being Heisenberg he was the best meth cooker in America. And had the exciting life with money that he should have had with grey matter. He finally died making something of his life, even if it wasnt a morally right living. He didnt want to live a boring life. But he made sure that all the "evil" people that could harm his family were taken care of first. He wasn't a ruthless killer. He made sure the people he killed were dark and deserved it like the Mexican in the basement that Walt gave a second chance. But seen he was going to kill walt, so Walt killed him.

Walt was very like tony soprano. Although they both seem on the surface as bad and evil people. They geniuely cared about their family and seen what they were doing as job and not doing it for that sake of it.

Agree with all of that down to him being very like Tony. Tony was born into organised crime, it was all that was ever expected for him. Walt was a genius who made some poor choices, usually led by his ego. Tony was a philanderer and deeply flawed man, in a lot of ways that Walt wasn't.

For example, Jesse would certainly have went the way of Christopher a lot earlier in the series if Walt was more like Tony.

clairefontaine

2ndcoming wrote: »

They were extremely different characters, linked only really by being the main protagonists in two dramas in which family and crime were major themes, and arguably neither of them were amoral sociopaths.

WW certainly wasn't, he was playing a game and high on power until the death of his brother-in-law brought him back to earth with a bang. Tony struggled with guilt, panic attacks and whether he would go to hell for how he lived his life.

Todd was an amoral sociopath. Tuco was probably one as well.

Walt became an amoral sociopath. I can see an argument for Tony not being one, but Walt, definitely.

Jimmy Iovine

gimli2112 wrote: »

Haven't seen season 5 but I've a different view on WW. I have a lot of sympathy for him. Think he started off basically good and was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He could never extricate himself from the situation. Don't remember him ever being very happy about it and he was always trying to get out.
The whole "I did it all for me" just doesn't ring true but as I said I haven't seen the last season and it's been a while since I watched it.

Get out of this thread. Unsub now you crazy fool.

greenflash

2ndcoming wrote: »

Todd was an amoral sociopath. Tuco was probably one as well.

Todd was an out and out psychopath, not a sociopath. He had manners, etiquette and civility, yet thought nothing of murdering and torturing anyone put in front of him.

2ndcoming

greenflash wrote: »

Todd was an out and out psychopath, not a sociopath. He had manners, etiquette and civility, yet thought nothing of murdering and torturing anyone put in front of him.

Yeah, none of that precludes him from being a sociopath. The only difference is whether you think someone's personality disorder is caused by social causes e.g. environment, growing up as part of a white supremacist gang or psychological causes e.g. chemical imbalance, wired wrong upstairs.

DrumSteve

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Get out of this thread. Unsub now you crazy fool.

Criminal Minds forum that way

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>

Dermighty

banquo wrote: »

In fairness, the ending would have been more enjoyable non die-hard fans like us who've spent every waking our theorising about what would happen in the finale. Loads of casual watchers who stayed up to stream were part of our BB Spoilers fb group were totally surprised that the ricin was for Lydia, where for us it was 90% expected. We didn't get any surprises because we'd been thinking about them since Blood Money.

I would class myself as a casual viewer, but only because theorising about the ending required me to interact with other people about the show. Breaking Bad was a show I watched for me, by myself, so discussing it with other people (pre-finale) was of no interest.

clairefontaine

I like this assessment. Pretty much how I feel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24281785

snausages

Dermighty wrote: »

The only parts of the finale I liked were his admission that he did it for himself and the Ricin poisoning, everything else was bland, imo. A good ending nonetheles.

The scene at the Schwartz' house was excellent. He was like a ghost. I wish we saw more of that Walt.

Also liked the flashback to episode 1 and back again in the White house. The difference in Walt's physiognomy really struck a chord.

Neil McCauleys Cooler Brother

The whole episode I thought Walt was so like Mike - his speech, his unhurried resignation about everything (the "you're going to need a bigger knife" was pure Mike, as I'm sure has been pointed out already). Mike had the game sorted; and, in the last episode, Walt seems to as well. Like two Wild West outlaws living in the wrong world.

The Corinthian

WW was a man who had a mid-life crisis on an epic level.

When the series began, he was turning 50, had a grossly underachieving job as a high-school teacher - so underachieving that he needed to work a second job in a car wash to make end's meet and what ultimately triggered his mid-life crisis was the revelation that he had terminal cancer, thus leading him to reflect upon his failure to achieve anything of worth in his life; as evidenced by his walking away from the subsequently successful Grey Matter business and the fact that he had failed to provide for his family, which is often seen as the most basic of responsibilities of a man.

So rather than having an affair with a 25-year old or buying a sports car, as a response to this crisis, he 'broke bad'. At first, it may well have been simply about making just enough money for his family (he used to calculate his 'target' repeatedly in much of the first two seasons), but it was probably twoards the end of season two, when he briefly 'retires' and encounters two would-be meth cooks in a hardware store, leading him to warn them off his 'territory', that it stopped being about his family and began being about him and reversing the failures and missed opportunities in his life.

It was probably only when he saw his son turn against him, that he finally realized this and that he had simply been justifying it all under the pretence of it all being for his family.

As for WW being a sociopath or psychopath (the two are essentially synonyms, btw); he's neither. If he were, he certainly would not have effectively gone on what was likely a suicide mission. Neither would he have offered to give up all his money to save Hank (can you see Tony Soprano doing this for anyone?).

Also his repeated attempts to redeem and help Jess go completely against how a sociopath would act; Christopher Montasanti didn't cause half the hassle for Tony Soprano that Jess caused for WW - yet WW still chose to put himself in deadly danger and lose what Mike called "a good thing", when he saved Jess from a doomed showdown with two of Gus's dealers in the penultimate episode of season three. A sociopath would have left Jess to his fate or, as Tony did, expedite his demise once an opportunity arose, so as to eliminate such a liability.

That's not to say that WW was a good guy, but if all the evidence out there that he was some form of sociopath is how ruthless he became, then every solder who's ever seen combat could likely be classified as one.

In conclusion, WW was a good man who 'broke bad', just as it says on the tin, and as it happened over time and so he probably didn't realize it himself, until near the end. When he did, he realized he was no longer WW, but had become Heisenberg and so tried to partially redeem himself, by providing for his family and saving Jess, in his final actions.

But those final actions were the work of Heisenberg, not WW - a man who would have recoiled at the thought of such brutality and murder - Walter White no longer existed.

clairefontaine

Those are some good points.

Although I rewatched the pilot episode and he killed two people (or intended to kill two, managed to kill one immediately, other took some more planning) his FIRST day on the job. The corrosion of WW was happening pretty quickly.

I think when he poisoned Brock, who was Jesses family, that really was a major turning point for how I saw WW.

So after binge watching the whole series, I'm looking at it again a bit differently with the benefit of retrospect. Not sure if any of my conclusions about WW will ever be final.

The Corinthian

clairefontaine wrote: »

Those are some good points.

Although I rewatched the pilot episode and he killed two people (or intended to kill two, managed to kill one immediately, other took some more planning) his FIRST day on the job. The corrosion of WW was happening pretty quickly.

His slide began the moment he decided to 'break bad' and initially this can be seen when he originally blackmails Jess to team up with him right at the start ("come on board or I'll tell the cops you're cooking meth from home").

Nonetheless, his first two murders were both ultimately in self defence (he even agonizes over the second one) and his third was murder through inaction, when he watches Jane die. In reality, his first truly cold blooded murder is when he comes to Jess's rescue when he foolishly decides to take on two of Gus's dealers; he runs one over and executes the other matter-of-factly.

If you look back on it all, it was all quite a gradual process.

I think when he poisoned Brock, who was Jesses family, that really was a major turning point for how I saw WW.

Another incremental descent, as his intention was to make Brock sick, not kill him (although had Brock died, that would have been seen by him as collateral damage), so as to turn Jess against Gus.

If you view the first season, it's a very different WW to when he's saying "say my name" in the fifth. The cold-blooded WW, or Heisenberg, who thinks nothing of Tod killing the boy on the bike takes a few seasons to really develop.

So after binge watching the whole series, I'm looking at it again a bit differently with the benefit of retrospect. Not sure if any of my conclusions about WW will ever be final.

It was a good series, with a much better planned story and character arc than many others. As such, I suspect going over it again the key moments will jump out at you far more than first time around when you wouldn't have known how it ends.

clairefontaine

I'm not convinced on what his intentions were around Brock. I think it was incidental for him whether he died or didn't, as long as Jesse turned on Gus. But if someone poisoned his son, he would have gone ballistic. Ok for him to poison Jesses family though.

I think I mentioned this on another thread. There was a scene in the hardware store where WW is shopping. He sees another guy shopping and the cart is filled with obvious ingredients. WWs old self remains, he stops him,he teaches him, he advises him. That's the old WW, the helpful teacher. But he then runs out of the store, catches up with him and tells him to stay off his turf.

There was one particular scene I found chilling. It was after the train heist. WW is in a house with the meth tent up, preparing to work. Jesse is cut up about the boy on the bike and wants out. WW is working him over, the usual work down on Jesse, how he cares as much about the boys death as Jesse. Blah blah blah, the usual manipulative performance from WW. He tells Jesse to o home, take a break. Full of sympathy after this intense chat. And then WW just goes back to work and starts whistling.

I can't remember at what point I start mouthing you piece of **** in this series, but it was pretty early on.

I reckon he's responsible for about 200 hundred deaths, including the plane crash.

The Corinthian

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm not convinced on what his intentions were around Brock. I think it was incidental for him whether he died or didn't, as long as Jesse turned on Gus. But if someone poisoned his son, he would have gone ballistic. Ok for him to poison Jesses family though.

He didn't need to kill Brock to turn Jess against Gus. If he did Brock would likely be dead. However, you're right that he probably didn't much care if Brock did die.

Still, what he did with Brock is something he would never have done in season one or two. His descent was gradual.

I think I mentioned this on another thread. There was a scene in the hardware store where WW is shopping. He sees another guy shopping and the cart is filled with obvious ingredients. WWs old self remains, he stops him,he teaches him, he advises him. That's the old WW, the helpful teacher. But he then runs out of the store, catches up with him and tells him to stay off his turf.

I mentioned that above - S2E10. That's probably the point where it definitively stops being about him doing all this for his family and it really becomes about him. If you notice, he frequently does calculations on how much he needs to make to leave his family before that point. He stops bothering after it becomes clear that this is no longer the point.

Given this, I don't think WW realizes this until near the end when faced with his son's rejection.

I reckon he's responsible for about 200 hundred deaths, including the plane crash.

More if you include those who died of drug related issues.

Personally I rather enjoyed Lydia's fate; someone who no doubt avoided unhealthy foods and drinks all the time, sticking instead to herbal teas and organic produce, out of a health-related paranoia; poisoned.

clairefontaine

The Corinthian wrote: »

He didn't need to kill Brock to turn Jess against Gus. If he did Brock would likely be dead. However, you're right that he probably didn't much care if Brock did die.

Still, what he did with Brock is something he would never have done in season one or two. His descent was gradual.

I mentioned that above - S2E10. That's probably the point where it definitively stops being about him doing all this for his family and it really becomes about him. If you notice, he frequently does calculations on how much he needs to make to leave his family before that point. He stops bothering after it becomes clear that this is no longer the point.

Given this, I don't think WW realizes this until near the end when faced with his son's rejection.

More if you include those who died of drug related issues.

Personally I rather enjoyed Lydia's fate; someone who no doubt avoided unhealthy foods and drinks all the time, sticking instead to herbal teas and organic produce, out of a health-related paranoia; poisoned.

When WW was knocking off the other scumbags, it didn't other be so much. I accepted it as part of the outlaw western genre. But when he started WHISTLING so cavalierly after the death of the boy on the bike, he completely lost me. The whistling was a nice touch by whomever had that idea.

Lydia and her stupid stevia. I didn't think she was health paranoid, I just thought she was uppity yippies middle class not wanting to get fat, but yes it has a nice irony when you look at it the other way.

Still, lets count the orphans. Lydia's child. Brock. Mikes granddaughter. And whomever had parents on that plane.

clairefontaine

I think the only final conclusion I can make about WW, my other conclusions change minute to minute, is that he loved Jesse more than he knew, and it was when he was faced with Jesse at the end he came to realise it.

Jesse was the only person who knew well both sides of him, the teacher and the monster. And I suspect if he had actually killed Jesse as planned, he would have felt it.

WW was a an evil evil man, but also a lost one, that's what makes it so sad, it was all so unnecessary.

scamalert

clairefontaine wrote: »

They cared about their family? They were both entirely amoral sociopaths.

sociopaths or not,but person above is right,walt did everything to preserve his family,and Jessie became as close family as well to him.

Wacker The Attacker

Walter White - I Won.jpg

He's the man

sReq | uTeK

In years to come they will be studying Walter white in schools around the globe instead of Shakespeare

ColeTrain

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

In years to come they will be studying Walter white in schools around the globe instead of Shakespeare

A pound of Meth instead of flesh no doubt

dougm1970

there'll be so much money thrown in the direction of resurrecting the franchise somehow...more money than perhaps any series in television history.

walt...lying on the ground...passed out...rushed to hospital....saved by a hairs breath on last cpr attempt and spends 3 months in a coma.

recovers...cancer being treated too....sent to jail...broken out by drug cartels who want him to cook....etc etc..


very long shot, i know...but stranger things have happened in tv land.

Riddle101

The thing I gets to me about Breaking Bad. Imagine if Walter got into the meth business much earlier in his life when he was younger. How different would his character be if he had a lifetime of it. Would he have been Gus maybe? He was king of the mountain for such a short time, he could have been even more dangerous over time.

snausages

Walt got lucky I think. It was a fluke that he managed to come across the one chink in Gus' armour. He really shouldn't have survived his crossing with Gus at all.

Chet T16

In fairness, Gus should have been blown up in the carpark

snausages

Chet T16 wrote: »

In fairness, Gus should have been blown up in the carpark

Hmm, guess you're right there tbh.

RobbingBandit

Andrea and Brock made Jessie happy, they also made him weak and an easy target. Walt and Uncle Jack/Todd preyed on this, both for different reasons. Walt may have been jealous at Jessie being happy or just thought they were an unwelcome distraction for Jessie. Todd and his uncle just used them as a way to keep Jessie in line,killing Andrea when Jessie decided to run but leaving Brock alive. I would imagine it would have been tv suicide to kill Brock instead of his mother but it would have made more sense IMO.

April O Neill

snausages wrote: »

Walt got lucky I think.

Indeed. He got lucky in so many ways. He thought he was more invincible than he was, and didn't realise how close he came on a number of occasions.

Monkey Allen

My conclusion on Walter White is not that different as to what I thought when I first started watching the show. I saw the situations he found himself in and thought, would I have acted any different? The first two kills were in self defence but if he was to get caught at the stage of say, the RV getting crushed, he would be found out for those murders which I doubt would be trialled as self defence. So, up to the start of season five, my view was not of him 'Breaking Bad' rather than an earlier mistake that snow balled into catastrophe due to the lies and kills that needed to happen in order to protect himself and his family. Much of the bad things that happened, happened because of Jesse. The attachment to Jesse only occurred because of the unfortunate circumstances they shared under Gus Fring.

Walt had hardened to seeing and committing murder. The path he went down to get to that point was not out of his wish to become the baddie he became. It was a point of no return and all made acceptable to himself because of the fact he was literally getting away with murder. Obviously all unforgivable but, and this may make me look like a not so nice human myself, understandable. Would I have done anything different? Yes, but maybe mostly because I don't have his genius to get out of the mess he found himself in. That's what hooked me on this show. Really questions how far you would go to cover up a bad move.

Or was that just me?

OhHiMark

greenflash wrote: »

Todd was an out and out psychopath, not a sociopath. He had manners, etiquette and civility, yet thought nothing of murdering and torturing anyone put in front of him.

Psychopath and sociopath are used interchangeably, they refer to the same thing.

clairefontaine

Monkey Allen wrote: »

My conclusion on Walter White is not that different as to what I thought when I first started watching the show. I saw the situations he found himself in and thought, would I have acted any different? The first two kills were in self defence but if he was to get caught at the stage of say, the RV getting crushed, he would be found out for those murders which I doubt would be trialled as self defence. So, up to the start of season five, my view was not of him 'Breaking Bad' rather than an earlier mistake that snow balled into catastrophe due to the lies and kills that needed to happen in order to protect himself and his family. Much of the bad things that happened, happened because of Jesse. The attachment to Jesse only occurred because of the unfortunate circumstances they shared under Gus Fring.

Walt had hardened to seeing and committing murder. The path he went down to get to that point was not out of his wish to become the baddie he became. It was a point of no return and all made acceptable to himself because of the fact he was literally getting away with murder. Obviously all unforgivable but, and this may make me look like a not so nice human myself, understandable. Would I have done anything different? Yes, but maybe mostly because I don't have his genius to get out of the mess he found himself in. That's what hooked me on this show. Really questions how far you would go to cover up a bad move.

Or was that just me?

Walt was going to die anyway.mhis consequences were entirely different to those of Jesse who would be a in,ice in a federal prison. WW was taken over by evil.

Jesse did bad things but when he connected with children he rediscovered his moral compass.

You can't blame all the bad stuff on Jesse. WW made some stupid hubristic mistakes.

Riddle101

OhHiMark wrote: »

Psychopath and sociopath are used interchangeably, they refer to the same thing.

There are differences

http://voices.yahoo.com/sociopath-vs-psychopath-there-difference-1906224.html

Monkey Allen

clairefontaine wrote: »

Walt was going to die anyway.mhis consequences were entirely different to those of Jesse who would be a in,ice in a federal prison. WW was taken over by evil.

Jesse did bad things but when he connected with children he rediscovered his moral compass.

You can't blame all the bad stuff on Jesse. WW made some stupid hubristic mistakes.

You misread my post and I think it's surprising that anyone would not see Jesse as the clumsy partner in that relationship. However, clumsy or not, Walt was free of him just before Hank beat him up. Then, because Jesse was threatening to squeal, Walt had to offer him partnership in Gus' job offer.

clairefontaine

Monkey Allen wrote: »

You misread my post and I think it's surprising that anyone would not see Jesse as the clumsy partner in that relationship. However, clumsy or not, Walt was free of him just before Hank beat him up. Then, because Jesse was threatening to squeal, Walt had to offer him partnership in Gus' job offer.

The way I look at it is Jesse would have been better off if he'd never have met WW.

Jesse broke good when he squeeled to Hank.

Monkey Allen

clairefontaine wrote: »

The way I look at it is Jesse would have been better off if he'd never have met WW.

Jesse broke good when he squeeled to Hank.

When Walt blackmailed Jesse into working with him, Jesse was already in the meth cooking business. At that stage neither of them saw murder in their future. Jesse would have continued his career as a low grade cook/dealer as well as addict. You could say that Walt probably kept him out of prison.

But the journey they started involved many errors of judgement or acts of stupidity from Jesse, far more so than Walt. Let's not forget Jesse bringing Crazy EIght to the cook site which led to his killing as well as Emilio's. Jesse approaching the two street dealers with a gun to avenge Andreas brothers murder. He would have been killed but Walt needed to protect him and so jeapordised his business arrangement with Gus for Jesses sake. Jesse being high when trying to strike the important deal with Gus. Jesse leaving the keys I the ignition of the RV. Jesse throwing all the water over Fire when there was a fire extinguisher. Jesse throwing his money all over town only to get end up in police custody which eventually led to his confession.

Jesse's clumsiness only seem to happen when he was off his face on drugs. When he as sober, he was smart and very insightful. But his drug habit was his doing and resulted in the undoing of many of Walts plans. But it made great tv as otherwise it would have been another typical American TV show with a genius that always calculates correctly his and everyone else's next three moves.

clairefontaine

Monkey Allen wrote: »

When Walt blackmailed Jesse into working with him, Jesse was already in the meth cooking business. At that stage neither of them saw murder in their future. Jesse would have continued his career as a low grade cook/dealer as well as addict. You could say that Walt probably kept him out of prison.

But the journey they started involved many errors of judgement or acts of stupidity from Jesse, far more so than Walt. Let's not forget Jesse bringing Crazy EIght to the cook site which led to his killing as well as Emilio's. Jesse approaching the two street dealers with a gun to avenge Andreas brothers murder. He would have been killed but Walt needed to protect him and so jeapordised his business arrangement with Gus for Jesses sake. Jesse being high when trying to strike the important deal with Gus. Jesse leaving the keys I the ignition of the RV. Jesse throwing all the water over Fire when there was a fire extinguisher. Jesse throwing his money all over town only to get end up in police custody which eventually led to his confession.

Jesse's clumsiness only seem to happen when he was off his face on drugs. When he as sober, he was smart and very insightful. But his drug habit was his doing and resulted in the undoing of many of Walts plans. But it made great tv as otherwise it would have been another typical American TV show with a genius that always calculates correctly his and everyone else's next three moves.

Jesse was way in over his head.

But WW made a lot of stupid mistakes that led to a spiral of destruction. Like dealing on other people's turf, like Tuco,. It was WWs hubris that brought them both down. Lets not forget WW made Jesse go to crazy eight in the first place.

Monkey Allen

clairefontaine wrote: »

Jesse was way in over his head.

But WW made a lot of stupid mistakes that led to a spiral of destruction. Like dealing on other people's turf, like Tuco,. It was WWs hubris that brought them both down. Lets not forget WW made Jesse go to crazy eight in the first place.

Walt didn't deal on Tucos turf. He had an arrangement to sell to Tuco directly. I don't disagree that Walt made mistakes. But, Jesse was the calamity in that partnership who caused many situations/opportunities to fall apart. Walt requested him to approach Crazy Eight as Jesse had advised they were 'tight'. A character judgement mistake from Jesse. Obviously the character judgement mistake by Walt on Jesse led to all the events that unfolded.

clairefontaine

I binge watched the series to catch up for the finale.

I'm currently re watching at a slower pace so I can process it better.

WW knew jesses character. It wasn't an erroneous judgement call, he just chose to overlook it because he trusted Jesse and Jesse did what WW told him to do. I also believe WW deep down loved Jesse like a son. Maybe others don't, but I do.

I watched the scene again when WW watches Jane die. WW just had a daughter. It's not far off to imagine he was having some kind of parent transference there, when his immediate impulses are to do something to stop the choking. The dear and concern are evident. But he stops himself, he thinks again. When I first watched this scene I thought he let her die because it was convenient for him, there's no one to blackmail him and he can get Jesse back on board.

But on second viewing, despite the very obvious remorse he feels for letting her die, it occurred to me he might feel if she sticks around, she no doubt will lead Jesse into an overdose and kill him. And if he does love Jesse like a son, he might just be feeling that way, that he has to let her die in order to to save Jesse.

Maybe both impulses were at play.

As for Jesses stupidity. Jesse has a big mouth. That has always been his weak point. Always wanted approval, always was looking for love from his surrogate dad, WW and always blabbing. But Jesse is not a scientist, and yet Jesse came up with the idea for the battery in the desert, the magnet idea for the files in evidence, and a few other ideas I can't recall right now. Jesse was not cut out for this work and WW kept reeling him back in, even though WW would die of cancer soon enough, but Jesse was a young man who had the consequences of a life in federal prison.

Jesses instincts were to get out of that job, and his instincts were right, not stupid.

Monkey Allen

The bond between Walt and Jesse was not there at the start. It was formed when they shared moments such as their very first earnings from them both working hard on the cook and sale as well as other moments such as Tuco kidnapping them. Jesse could easily have been killed off by Tuco at no loss to Walt but Walt refused to work for Tuco if Jesse was killed. A favour that was repayed by Jesse when he refused to cook for Gus if Walt was killed.

Jesse's errors were only made when he was using. When he stopped, he showed his true intelligence and potential. But, he created most of the mess he found himself in. Let's not forget that he continued to cook in the RV against Walts wishes and was eventually was put Hank on his trail. Walt had to react to that as his finger prints were all over it. This then led to Hank beating up Jesse who then threatened to rat out Walt as it would have screwed Hank due to Heissenberg being right under his nose all the time. Walt had to then offer a partnership with Jesse for the Gus Fring deal. If it was a Walt/Gail setup, it would have been easy money with minimal risk. Jesse comes on board and, after stealing parts of the cook that went over the required amount (which Walt spoke to him about), he then reacts out of pure emotion and targeted the street dealers. This led to Walt acting out of pure emotion to save Jesse. Who was responsible for that situation? Definitely Jesse. It put the relationship with Gus on very thin ice and led to the plot to 'phase out' Walt once Gail got up to speed on Walts cooking standard. Jesse put Walt in that position. Was it right to see Gail as collateral damage just to save his own skin? No, but I guess Walt was a wounded animal at that stage and needed to act.

I guess what I'm getting at is, Walt could have had a fantastic setup as a crystal meth cook and actually got to a stage where he had all he needed to do that. But Jesse ruined it for him.

clairefontaine

Monkey Allen wrote: »

The bond between Walt and Jesse was not there at the start. It was formed when they shared moments such as their very first earnings from them both working hard on the cook and sale as well as other moments such as Tuco kidnapping them. Jesse could easily have been killed off by Tuco at no loss to Walt but Walt refused to work for Tuco if Jesse was killed. A favour that was repayed by Jesse when he refused to cook for Gus if Walt was killed.

Jesse's errors were only made when he was using. When he stopped, he showed his true intelligence and potential. But, he created most of the mess he found himself in. Let's not forget that he continued to cook in the RV against Walts wishes and was eventually was put Hank on his trail. Walt had to react to that as his finger prints were all over it. This then led to Hank beating up Jesse who then threatened to rat out Walt as it would have screwed Hank due to Heissenberg being right under his nose all the time. Walt had to then offer a partnership with Jesse for the Gus Fring deal. If it was a Walt/Gail setup, it would have been easy money with minimal risk. Jesse comes on board and, after stealing parts of the cook that went over the required amount (which Walt spoke to him about), he then reacts out of pure emotion and targeted the street dealers. This led to Walt acting out of pure emotion to save Jesse. Who was responsible for that situation? Definitely Jesse. It put the relationship with Gus on very thin ice and led to the plot to 'phase out' Walt once Gail got up to speed on Walts cooking standard. Jesse put Walt in that position. Was it right to see Gail as collateral damage just to save his own skin? No, but I guess Walt was a wounded animal at that stage and needed to act.

I guess what I'm getting at is, Walt could have had a fantastic setup as a crystal meth cook and actually got to a stage where he had all he needed to do that. But Jesse ruined it for him.

Jesse ratted out Walt because he poisoned Brock.

Jesse does not have a criminal mind but Walt trusts him. Walt would not have gotten anywhere without Jesse. Jesse wanted out every time a child died,and WW roped him back in.

Jesse "ruined it for him?" Lol. Good. WW is a man strangle hosed by evil responsible for over 200 deaths he could care less about. Jesse is irredeemably damaged from it and will love out the rest of his adulthood destroyed because WW called in those Nazi inbreds.