Walter White-final conclusions (final episode spoilers)

Liam O · 30-09-2013 5:32pm #1

So now that it's all said and done what are the conclusions that can be made on the character of Walt? At a certain stage he looked irredeemable but have his actions in the final couple of episodes changed that? I'm still on the fence and wanted to gauge others reactions.

scamalert · 30-09-2013 5:53pm

Best episode in the entire series ? No
But ending itself i think is right,yes there was a bit dramatization with machine gun,roaming streets around town,but otherwise everything seems resolved,as for W.W i think ending was perfect,he accepted what he did and who he became,he was never a killer,nor some sort of psycho,Just someone who evolved into evil person as series went.I believe many expected more from last episode,but theres so little time to cramp up all the action into 55min of the show.
All in total there will be hardly another series so intense and interesting like Br Bad,in upcoming future.
Another factor that many will miss is part of Hanks finding and junior receiving money,but when you think in General those events aren't really of much importance.

mloc123 · 30-09-2013 6:09pm

In the end he admitted that he enjoyed doing it, no more hiding behind the fact he was forced into it to help his family... This redeemed him somewhat for me, and being honest with Jesse.

clairefontaine · 30-09-2013 6:20pm

He got everything he wanted in the end and left a trail,of devastation behind him.

In the last hour, he did as best as could be expected in tyeing up loose ends, so maybe he found redemption for himself, but the damage in his legacy is irredeemable.

PhiloCypher · 30-09-2013 6:51pm

I'm finding it hard to put into words how I feel about the finale. On the one hand that ending feels like the most natural thing in the world( maybe it was the only way of tying up all those loose ends in a satisfying way) pulling something off like that was always in Walt/Heisenbergs wheelhouse as we saw with Gus and the train robbery and just like then there was a visceral thrill in seeing him pulling it off, but it somehow feels a little wrong to me to leave this man who we have seen kill poison or corrupt everyone around him on a moment of triumph as he vanquishes his enemies.

As I've said tho that may well have been the only satisfying way to end it idk and if they had ended it less neatly I'd probably be sat hear complaining about a lack of closure so the writers can't win really.

Whatever my misgivings over them giving Walt Wins on just about every part of his plan it was still one of the best finales of a tv show I've ever seen.

Dermighty · 30-09-2013 6:53pm

The only parts of the finale I liked were his admission that he did it for himself and the Ricin poisoning, everything else was bland, imo. A good ending nonetheles.

hfallada · 30-09-2013 10:01pm

I think the meth was to show the world he was a genius. In the first season in the episode grey matter, we see he was part of a company, that was a billion dollar company. He missed out on his chance there to be great. But ended up being a ****ty high school chemistry teacher with no life and dying.

By being Heisenberg he was the best meth cooker in America. And had the exciting life with money that he should have had with grey matter. He finally died making something of his life, even if it wasnt a morally right living. He didnt want to live a boring life. But he made sure that all the "evil" people that could harm his family were taken care of first. He wasn't a ruthless killer. He made sure the people he killed were dark and deserved it like the Mexican in the basement that Walt gave a second chance. But seen he was going to kill walt, so Walt killed him.

Walt was very like tony soprano. Although they both seem on the surface as bad and evil people. They geniuely cared about their family and seen what they were doing as job and not doing it for that sake of it.

clairefontaine · 01-10-2013 12:07am

hfallada wrote: »

I think the meth was to show the world he was a genius. In the first season in the episode grey matter, we see he was part of a company, that was a billion dollar company. He missed out on his chance there to be great. But ended up being a ****ty high school chemistry teacher with no life and dying.

By being Heisenberg he was the best meth cooker in America. And had the exciting life with money that he should have had with grey matter. He finally died making something of his life, even if it wasnt a morally right living. He didnt want to live a boring life. But he made sure that all the "evil" people that could harm his family were taken care of first. He wasn't a ruthless killer. He made sure the people he killed were dark and deserved it like the Mexican in the basement that Walt gave a second chance. But seen he was going to kill walt, so Walt killed him.

Walt was very like tony soprano. Although they both seem on the surface as bad and evil people. They geniuely cared about their family and seen what they were doing as job and not doing it for that sake of it.

They cared about their family? They were both entirely amoral sociopaths.

banquo · 01-10-2013 2:51am

In fairness, the ending would have been more enjoyable non die-hard fans like us who've spent every waking our theorising about what would happen in the finale. Loads of casual watchers who stayed up to stream were part of our BB Spoilers fb group were totally surprised that the ricin was for Lydia, where for us it was 90% expected. We didn't get any surprises because we'd been thinking about them since Blood Money.

gimli2112 · 01-10-2013 9:01am

Haven't seen season 5 but I've a different view on WW. I have a lot of sympathy for him. Think he started off basically good and was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He could never extricate himself from the situation. Don't remember him ever being very happy about it and he was always trying to get out.
The whole "I did it all for me" just doesn't ring true but as I said I haven't seen the last season and it's been a while since I watched it.

2ndcoming · 01-10-2013 4:43pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

They cared about their family? They were both entirely amoral sociopaths.

They were extremely different characters, linked only really by being the main protagonists in two dramas in which family and crime were major themes, and arguably neither of them were amoral sociopaths.

WW certainly wasn't, he was playing a game and high on power until the death of his brother-in-law brought him back to earth with a bang. Tony struggled with guilt, panic attacks and whether he would go to hell for how he lived his life.

Todd was an amoral sociopath. Tuco was probably one as well.

2ndcoming · 01-10-2013 4:53pm

hfallada wrote: »

I think the meth was to show the world he was a genius. In the first season in the episode grey matter, we see he was part of a company, that was a billion dollar company. He missed out on his chance there to be great. But ended up being a ****ty high school chemistry teacher with no life and dying.

By being Heisenberg he was the best meth cooker in America. And had the exciting life with money that he should have had with grey matter. He finally died making something of his life, even if it wasnt a morally right living. He didnt want to live a boring life. But he made sure that all the "evil" people that could harm his family were taken care of first. He wasn't a ruthless killer. He made sure the people he killed were dark and deserved it like the Mexican in the basement that Walt gave a second chance. But seen he was going to kill walt, so Walt killed him.

Walt was very like tony soprano. Although they both seem on the surface as bad and evil people. They geniuely cared about their family and seen what they were doing as job and not doing it for that sake of it.

Agree with all of that down to him being very like Tony. Tony was born into organised crime, it was all that was ever expected for him. Walt was a genius who made some poor choices, usually led by his ego. Tony was a philanderer and deeply flawed man, in a lot of ways that Walt wasn't.

For example, Jesse would certainly have went the way of Christopher a lot earlier in the series if Walt was more like Tony.

clairefontaine · 01-10-2013 10:27pm

2ndcoming wrote: »

They were extremely different characters, linked only really by being the main protagonists in two dramas in which family and crime were major themes, and arguably neither of them were amoral sociopaths.

WW certainly wasn't, he was playing a game and high on power until the death of his brother-in-law brought him back to earth with a bang. Tony struggled with guilt, panic attacks and whether he would go to hell for how he lived his life.

Todd was an amoral sociopath. Tuco was probably one as well.

Walt became an amoral sociopath. I can see an argument for Tony not being one, but Walt, definitely.

Jimmy Iovine · 01-10-2013 11:48pm

gimli2112 wrote: »

Haven't seen season 5 but I've a different view on WW. I have a lot of sympathy for him. Think he started off basically good and was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He could never extricate himself from the situation. Don't remember him ever being very happy about it and he was always trying to get out.
The whole "I did it all for me" just doesn't ring true but as I said I haven't seen the last season and it's been a while since I watched it.

Get out of this thread. Unsub now you crazy fool.

greenflash · 01-10-2013 11:51pm

2ndcoming wrote: »

Todd was an amoral sociopath. Tuco was probably one as well.

Todd was an out and out psychopath, not a sociopath. He had manners, etiquette and civility, yet thought nothing of murdering and torturing anyone put in front of him.

2ndcoming · 02-10-2013 1:15am

greenflash wrote: »

Todd was an out and out psychopath, not a sociopath. He had manners, etiquette and civility, yet thought nothing of murdering and torturing anyone put in front of him.

Yeah, none of that precludes him from being a sociopath. The only difference is whether you think someone's personality disorder is caused by social causes e.g. environment, growing up as part of a white supremacist gang or psychological causes e.g. chemical imbalance, wired wrong upstairs.

DrumSteve · 02-10-2013 11:55am

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Get out of this thread. Unsub now you crazy fool.

Criminal Minds forum that way

>

Dermighty · 02-10-2013 4:17pm

banquo wrote: »

In fairness, the ending would have been more enjoyable non die-hard fans like us who've spent every waking our theorising about what would happen in the finale. Loads of casual watchers who stayed up to stream were part of our BB Spoilers fb group were totally surprised that the ricin was for Lydia, where for us it was 90% expected. We didn't get any surprises because we'd been thinking about them since Blood Money.

I would class myself as a casual viewer, but only because theorising about the ending required me to interact with other people about the show. Breaking Bad was a show I watched for me, by myself, so discussing it with other people (pre-finale) was of no interest.

clairefontaine · 02-10-2013 6:33pm

I like this assessment. Pretty much how I feel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24281785

snausages · 02-10-2013 7:19pm

Dermighty wrote: »

The only parts of the finale I liked were his admission that he did it for himself and the Ricin poisoning, everything else was bland, imo. A good ending nonetheles.

The scene at the Schwartz' house was excellent. He was like a ghost. I wish we saw more of that Walt.

Also liked the flashback to episode 1 and back again in the White house. The difference in Walt's physiognomy really struck a chord.

Neil McCauleys Cooler Brother · 02-10-2013 8:21pm

The whole episode I thought Walt was so like Mike - his speech, his unhurried resignation about everything (the "you're going to need a bigger knife" was pure Mike, as I'm sure has been pointed out already). Mike had the game sorted; and, in the last episode, Walt seems to as well. Like two Wild West outlaws living in the wrong world.

The Corinthian · 03-10-2013 1:12pm

WW was a man who had a mid-life crisis on an epic level.

When the series began, he was turning 50, had a grossly underachieving job as a high-school teacher - so underachieving that he needed to work a second job in a car wash to make end's meet and what ultimately triggered his mid-life crisis was the revelation that he had terminal cancer, thus leading him to reflect upon his failure to achieve anything of worth in his life; as evidenced by his walking away from the subsequently successful Grey Matter business and the fact that he had failed to provide for his family, which is often seen as the most basic of responsibilities of a man.

So rather than having an affair with a 25-year old or buying a sports car, as a response to this crisis, he 'broke bad'. At first, it may well have been simply about making just enough money for his family (he used to calculate his 'target' repeatedly in much of the first two seasons), but it was probably twoards the end of season two, when he briefly 'retires' and encounters two would-be meth cooks in a hardware store, leading him to warn them off his 'territory', that it stopped being about his family and began being about him and reversing the failures and missed opportunities in his life.

It was probably only when he saw his son turn against him, that he finally realized this and that he had simply been justifying it all under the pretence of it all being for his family.

As for WW being a sociopath or psychopath (the two are essentially synonyms, btw); he's neither. If he were, he certainly would not have effectively gone on what was likely a suicide mission. Neither would he have offered to give up all his money to save Hank (can you see Tony Soprano doing this for anyone?).

Also his repeated attempts to redeem and help Jess go completely against how a sociopath would act; Christopher Montasanti didn't cause half the hassle for Tony Soprano that Jess caused for WW - yet WW still chose to put himself in deadly danger and lose what Mike called "a good thing", when he saved Jess from a doomed showdown with two of Gus's dealers in the penultimate episode of season three. A sociopath would have left Jess to his fate or, as Tony did, expedite his demise once an opportunity arose, so as to eliminate such a liability.

That's not to say that WW was a good guy, but if all the evidence out there that he was some form of sociopath is how ruthless he became, then every solder who's ever seen combat could likely be classified as one.

In conclusion, WW was a good man who 'broke bad', just as it says on the tin, and as it happened over time and so he probably didn't realize it himself, until near the end. When he did, he realized he was no longer WW, but had become Heisenberg and so tried to partially redeem himself, by providing for his family and saving Jess, in his final actions.

But those final actions were the work of Heisenberg, not WW - a man who would have recoiled at the thought of such brutality and murder - Walter White no longer existed.

clairefontaine · 03-10-2013 5:46pm

Those are some good points.

Although I rewatched the pilot episode and he killed two people (or intended to kill two, managed to kill one immediately, other took some more planning) his FIRST day on the job. The corrosion of WW was happening pretty quickly.

I think when he poisoned Brock, who was Jesses family, that really was a major turning point for how I saw WW.

So after binge watching the whole series, I'm looking at it again a bit differently with the benefit of retrospect. Not sure if any of my conclusions about WW will ever be final.

The Corinthian · 03-10-2013 6:24pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

Those are some good points.

Although I rewatched the pilot episode and he killed two people (or intended to kill two, managed to kill one immediately, other took some more planning) his FIRST day on the job. The corrosion of WW was happening pretty quickly.

His slide began the moment he decided to 'break bad' and initially this can be seen when he originally blackmails Jess to team up with him right at the start ("come on board or I'll tell the cops you're cooking meth from home").

Nonetheless, his first two murders were both ultimately in self defence (he even agonizes over the second one) and his third was murder through inaction, when he watches Jane die. In reality, his first truly cold blooded murder is when he comes to Jess's rescue when he foolishly decides to take on two of Gus's dealers; he runs one over and executes the other matter-of-factly.

If you look back on it all, it was all quite a gradual process.

I think when he poisoned Brock, who was Jesses family, that really was a major turning point for how I saw WW.

Another incremental descent, as his intention was to make Brock sick, not kill him (although had Brock died, that would have been seen by him as collateral damage), so as to turn Jess against Gus.

If you view the first season, it's a very different WW to when he's saying "say my name" in the fifth. The cold-blooded WW, or Heisenberg, who thinks nothing of Tod killing the boy on the bike takes a few seasons to really develop.

So after binge watching the whole series, I'm looking at it again a bit differently with the benefit of retrospect. Not sure if any of my conclusions about WW will ever be final.

It was a good series, with a much better planned story and character arc than many others. As such, I suspect going over it again the key moments will jump out at you far more than first time around when you wouldn't have known how it ends.

clairefontaine · 03-10-2013 6:36pm

I'm not convinced on what his intentions were around Brock. I think it was incidental for him whether he died or didn't, as long as Jesse turned on Gus. But if someone poisoned his son, he would have gone ballistic. Ok for him to poison Jesses family though.

I think I mentioned this on another thread. There was a scene in the hardware store where WW is shopping. He sees another guy shopping and the cart is filled with obvious ingredients. WWs old self remains, he stops him,he teaches him, he advises him. That's the old WW, the helpful teacher. But he then runs out of the store, catches up with him and tells him to stay off his turf.

There was one particular scene I found chilling. It was after the train heist. WW is in a house with the meth tent up, preparing to work. Jesse is cut up about the boy on the bike and wants out. WW is working him over, the usual work down on Jesse, how he cares as much about the boys death as Jesse. Blah blah blah, the usual manipulative performance from WW. He tells Jesse to o home, take a break. Full of sympathy after this intense chat. And then WW just goes back to work and starts whistling.

I can't remember at what point I start mouthing you piece of **** in this series, but it was pretty early on.

I reckon he's responsible for about 200 hundred deaths, including the plane crash.

The Corinthian · 03-10-2013 6:50pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm not convinced on what his intentions were around Brock. I think it was incidental for him whether he died or didn't, as long as Jesse turned on Gus. But if someone poisoned his son, he would have gone ballistic. Ok for him to poison Jesses family though.

He didn't need to kill Brock to turn Jess against Gus. If he did Brock would likely be dead. However, you're right that he probably didn't much care if Brock did die.

Still, what he did with Brock is something he would never have done in season one or two. His descent was gradual.

I think I mentioned this on another thread. There was a scene in the hardware store where WW is shopping. He sees another guy shopping and the cart is filled with obvious ingredients. WWs old self remains, he stops him,he teaches him, he advises him. That's the old WW, the helpful teacher. But he then runs out of the store, catches up with him and tells him to stay off his turf.

I mentioned that above - S2E10. That's probably the point where it definitively stops being about him doing all this for his family and it really becomes about him. If you notice, he frequently does calculations on how much he needs to make to leave his family before that point. He stops bothering after it becomes clear that this is no longer the point.

Given this, I don't think WW realizes this until near the end when faced with his son's rejection.

I reckon he's responsible for about 200 hundred deaths, including the plane crash.

More if you include those who died of drug related issues.

Personally I rather enjoyed Lydia's fate; someone who no doubt avoided unhealthy foods and drinks all the time, sticking instead to herbal teas and organic produce, out of a health-related paranoia; poisoned.

clairefontaine · 03-10-2013 7:08pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

He didn't need to kill Brock to turn Jess against Gus. If he did Brock would likely be dead. However, you're right that he probably didn't much care if Brock did die.

Still, what he did with Brock is something he would never have done in season one or two. His descent was gradual.

I mentioned that above - S2E10. That's probably the point where it definitively stops being about him doing all this for his family and it really becomes about him. If you notice, he frequently does calculations on how much he needs to make to leave his family before that point. He stops bothering after it becomes clear that this is no longer the point.

Given this, I don't think WW realizes this until near the end when faced with his son's rejection.

More if you include those who died of drug related issues.

Personally I rather enjoyed Lydia's fate; someone who no doubt avoided unhealthy foods and drinks all the time, sticking instead to herbal teas and organic produce, out of a health-related paranoia; poisoned.

When WW was knocking off the other scumbags, it didn't other be so much. I accepted it as part of the outlaw western genre. But when he started WHISTLING so cavalierly after the death of the boy on the bike, he completely lost me. The whistling was a nice touch by whomever had that idea.

Lydia and her stupid stevia. I didn't think she was health paranoid, I just thought she was uppity yippies middle class not wanting to get fat, but yes it has a nice irony when you look at it the other way.

Still, lets count the orphans. Lydia's child. Brock. Mikes granddaughter. And whomever had parents on that plane.

clairefontaine · 04-10-2013 7:06am

I think the only final conclusion I can make about WW, my other conclusions change minute to minute, is that he loved Jesse more than he knew, and it was when he was faced with Jesse at the end he came to realise it.

Jesse was the only person who knew well both sides of him, the teacher and the monster. And I suspect if he had actually killed Jesse as planned, he would have felt it.

WW was a an evil evil man, but also a lost one, that's what makes it so sad, it was all so unnecessary.