Is it time the west took action against China's 'one-child policy'?

05-10-2013 10:18AM

None of our business. Besides, there is more than enough of them already.

Drakares · 05-10-2013 11:00AM

There are more soldiers in the Chinese army than there are, people living in Ireland.

UCDVet · 05-10-2013 11:17AM

To be honest - I think the west should be adopting their policies....

In China you can have more than one child. You just lose certain benefits given to parents, like tax breaks, and have to pay additional costs. Those additional costs/fees are certainly less that the cost of educating your child.

Personally, I think it's a great program.

A significant portion of taxpayer money goes to things like education costs. Why shouldn't the parents be the ones that pay?

Beyond that, in my own anecdotal experience, it seems like (most of the time) those parents who are least equipped to raise children are the ones having the most of them. I don't know if it is true in Ireland, but it is true in a lot of places, the poorer someone is, the more children (on average) they have. We shouldn't encourage that.

I know the counter-argument is 'Who should tell someone how many children they can have.' But that argument doesn't seem very strong in the context of a modern society where we happily tell everyone else what they can and can't do with their bodies and happily seize their income. If you want to me to fund a child's healthcare and education, you can't, in the same breath, tell me it is none of my business how many children someone has.

wendell borton · 05-10-2013 11:42AM

We could do with a similar policy where.

05-10-2013 11:46AM

I agree, a similar policy should be adopted almost everywhere. At least for a brief period of time to try and have some control. If you look at how much the population has increased in recent years, it is absolutely staggering! It's only going to be a matter of time until this becomes a major problem, perhaps in our grandchildren's time.

Jonny7 · 05-10-2013 12:18PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Well, that's an awfully defeatist mindset you have there! Is there some sort of statute of limitation which applies to violent abuses of human rights? If such barbaric things become 'tradition' then there's no point in trying to change things?

I know you don't feel that way because you often partake in discussion about 'traditionalist' human rights abuses elsewhere.

Why this sudden random concern for the one child policy?.. of all the horrors in the world, actually of all the horrors in modern day China why suddenly get all uppity about this?.. bit odd to say the least.. and yes it is a tragedy, not much can be done, the heads of state go to China, they complain about the human rights issues, but they can no more affect domestic policy more than they can affect Iranians stoning people to death or African countries mutilating young girls..

I also have a strange feeling you'd be the first in line to complain about action or sanctions - pointing out "Western hypocrisy".. or am I getting you confused with someone else

bnt · 05-10-2013 12:20PM

The recently-departed Tom Clancy covered this type of scenario in his novel The Bear and the Dragon (2000), and had his own prescription for what to do about it. Without spoiling the story: the President (Jack Ryan) is enraged by an incident in China, in which hospital officials attempted to perform the ultimate in late term abortions on a 2nd child. A local Baptist minister and an official from the Vatican attempt to intervene and are killed, sparking a major diplomatic incident and a trade war. Ryan, a Catholic, was never a fan of the one-child policy in the first place, and this sends him round the bend, up the wall, and over the top.

In the book, the USA had previously passed a "Trade Reform Act" which basically says "whatever you do to us, we can do to you". For example: since the USA's market is open to Chinese goods, the Chinese market must be equally open to US goods - or else. So they start enforcing it on China, which puts the regime there on the back foot and they feel they have to to invade Siberia for oil.

The fictional scenario isn't possible today, at least partly because China holds over a $Trillion of US Debt, which is basically an economic gun pointed at the USA's head. If the USA screws with China in any way, they can just close that tap and refuse to lend more - which the USA is going to need in a few weeks (when they raise the Debt Ceiling).

The other problem is the political situation in the USA, the deep divisions between the parties in Congress. You have a Republican core running the Senate that will oppose anything the Democratic President does, whether or not they agree with it in principle. Questions of "right" and "wrong" don't make it in to the room, never mind on to the table. In the book, partisan disagreements are shelved in the interests of a united front against China, which is why Clancy's ideas will remain in the realm of fiction.

JustAddWater · 05-10-2013 12:24PM

_Redzer_ wrote: »

I believe a fine to anyone who has more than one child is the only way to go, abortion at 6 months is fucking nuts!

What about rich people who just keep paying the fine to have kids?

Just becomes a charge to have extra kids as opposed to a fine

It is nuts, barbaric even. They need to be pulled up on it. Despicable from a country which could be the worlds new superpower someday

Mr Benevolent · 05-10-2013 12:26PM

My name is URL wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1150016/china-couple-speak-of-forced-abortion

This is obviously nothing new for china, but how long is the Western world willing to stand by and accept this as agreeable policy for a potential global superpower? Nations have been hit with sanctions etc for a lot less.

Is it time for us to do something about this barbaric practice?

Yeah, let's send the US Air Force into China to instill good American values.

_Redzer_ · 05-10-2013 12:30PM

JustAddWater wrote: »

What about rich people who just keep paying the fine to have kids?

Just becomes a charge to have extra kids as opposed to a fine

It is nuts, barbaric even. They need to be pulled up on it. Despicable from a country which could be the worlds new superpower someday

Never thought about that. In that case make it a scalable fine factored on your income and savings so everyone pays the same percentage, but still make it a hefty percentage to discourage people from doing it.

Teyla Emmagan · 05-10-2013 12:32PM

No, in fact India should introduce the same policy next. Better to give one child a good quality of life than have a rake of them living in squalor and deprivation.

Anyway, I don't believe this story. No one forces abortions in China, they just make it so punitive for people tax wise to have more than one kid that it's self policing.

I have a Chinese friend in Beijing who has 2 kids, she was once married to an Australian so has dual nationality now. And people in rural areas over there can have more than 1 kid (tax free) to help with the farming. And if your first child dies you can have another one. There is a bit of give in the policy.

Bog Standard User · 05-10-2013 12:35PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think Ireland should unilaterally declare war on the nuclear armed 5 million strong Chinese army. If we pray everyday to Jesus and squeeze each others hands really hard with our eyes closed singing Wolfetones tunes I think, in fact, I know, we can defeat these people.

BRING IT ON!!!

ah here leave it out!!!! where would we get your cheap yet poorly constructed counterfit electronics from?

kc90 · 05-10-2013 12:43PM

My name is URL wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1150016/china-couple-speak-of-forced-abortion

This is obviously nothing new for china, but how long is the Western world willing to stand by and accept this as agreeable policy for a potential global superpower? Nations have been hit with sanctions etc for a lot less.

Is it time for us to do something about this barbaric practice?

First off, I don't agree with this.

But, the one child policy is by no means a secret. You want a 2nd child, then you pay. The Chinese population is unsustainable, and although this isn't an ideal solution, something needs to be done. I don't think another country should interfere with this.

cletus van damme · 05-10-2013 12:49PM

ideally there are enough resources in the world for teh current and bigger populations but the sharing of these resources is imbalanced.

however I think it's morally wrong tp force people not to reproduce.
The policy itself is immoral.

certain things , including procreation should be above the laws of man.

My name is URL · 05-10-2013 12:53PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

Why this sudden random concern for the one child policy?.. of all the horrors in the world, actually of all the horrors in modern day China why suddenly get all uppity about this?.. bit odd to say the least.. and yes it is a tragedy, not much can be done, the heads of state go to China, they complain about the human rights issues, but they can no more affect domestic policy more than they can affect Iranians stoning people to death or African countries mutilating young girls..

It's not sudden or random. It happens to be in the news atm hence the thread and the link to the article. It's topical, and topical stuff tends to be discussed =/

Forced abortion like this is already supposedly illegal under Chinese law, so no arms need to be twisted to have new laws introduced. All that needs to happen is pressure to be put on the government to properly deal with this stuff when it does happen, and not sweep it under the rug and try to distance themselves from it. They're the ones ultimately responsible due to the immense pressure they put on local officials. China needs to be held to a higher standard than other backwards shitholes where human rights abuses are common.

KingOfFairview · 05-10-2013 12:55PM

My name is URL wrote: »

All that needs to happen is pressure to be put on the government to properly deal with this stuff when it does happen, and not sweep it under the rug and try to distance themselves from it.

In your own time, tell us what pressure you propose to put on the People's Republic of China that would have any effect at all on this issue.

My name is URL · 05-10-2013 01:02PM

KingOfFairview wrote: »

In your own time, tell us what pressure you propose to put on the People's Republic of China that would have any effect at all on this issue.

I don't know the exact answer to that. But the United Nations Human Rights Council exists to deal with this very stuff. I wonder if they'll pass a resolution condemning what happened.. fat chance, I'd say.

Dravokivich · 05-10-2013 01:09PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't know the exact answer to that. But the United Nations Human Rights Council exists to deal with this very stuff. I wonder if they'll pass a resolution condemning what happened.. fat chance, I'd say.

But the government arent enforcing the late term abortions. It came up somewhere here a year ago with another report similar to the one in the op. It was some over zealous civil servant then and I suspect it may be the same again now.

Hilly Bill · 05-10-2013 01:10PM

To be fair there are billions of Chinese people in the world as it is. If all the chinese people in the world was to stand side by side holding hand around the world then

Half of them would drown.

.

Maybe Ireland should take up the chinese method of controlling how many kids the Junkies have. The amount of Junkies out of their heads pushing prams is unreal.

05-10-2013 01:12PM

Sky News, probably not the full story.

/closethread.

Femme_Fatale · 05-10-2013 01:12PM

wendell borton wrote: »

We could do with a similar policy where.

Cuz we're overpopulated?

What we could do with here is much, much better sex education and better availability of contraception. Also the age of consent being lowered to 14 or 15 - not because it's great for 14/15-year-olds to be riding, but because there'd be better provisions for them in terms of preventing pregnancy.

wexie · 05-10-2013 01:44PM

KingOfFairview wrote: »

In your own time, tell us what pressure you propose to put on the People's Republic of China that would have any effect at all on this issue.

It'd be like putting pressure on your local TD saying you don't agree with the expenses policies. They'll just shrug and carry on as before.

notharrypotter · 05-10-2013 01:50PM

In Ireland you need a license for a dog but not for a child. Says a lot about our priorities and we are then getting excited about another countries policies on population control.

Jonny7 · 05-10-2013 01:50PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Forced abortion like this is already supposedly illegal under Chinese law, so no arms need to be twisted to have new laws introduced. All that needs to happen is pressure to be put on the government to properly deal with this stuff when it does happen, and not sweep it under the rug and try to distance themselves from it. They're the ones ultimately responsible due to the immense pressure they put on local officials. China needs to be held to a higher standard than other backwards shitholes where human rights abuses are common.

The US and the "West" has been chastising Chinese human rights for years, decades. What can they do?

Tibetans are being forced to hang Chinese flags outside every house and religious building - those that don't are being intimidated, taken away and sometimes disappeared - one of the few groups reporting this is US government backed.

The one child policy affects about a third of Chinese, it's a Makavelian programme designed to stop overpopulation in urban areas - a domestic policy the US/EU/UN can do little about. The elite in the country are almost completely protected, they can either get stand-ins to serve time for them or they go to specially commissioned "luxury" prisons (in the rare event they are sent e.g. Bo Xilai)

There are 10's of thousands of protests in the country every year, these often involve rural communities, and are typically harshly dealt with.

It's a third world country in terms of human rights and freedom of expression

Femme_Fatale · 05-10-2013 01:51PM

notharrypotter wrote: »

In Ireland you need a license for a dog but not for a child. Says a lot about our priorities and we are then getting excited about another countries policies on population control.

Can't we condemn both? Even if I feel there should be extremely improved sex education/contraception services in Ireland, because some kiddies are not getting a good start in life due to unfit parents, doesn't mean I can't also think China's policy is too extreme in the other direction.

KingOfFairview · 05-10-2013 02:04PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't know the exact answer to that. But the United Nations Human Rights Council exists to deal with this very stuff. I wonder if they'll pass a resolution condemning what happened.. fat chance, I'd say.

How can they condemn what was a violation of Chinese law? It's already considered criminal behavior by the CCP.

It's awful, but you need to move away from the idea 'we' can do anything.

kc90 · 05-10-2013 02:11PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

ideally there are enough resources in the world for teh current and bigger populations but the sharig of these resources is imbalanced.

however I think it's morally wrong tp force people not to reproduce.
The policy itself is immoral.

There really isn't, the earth's overpopulated as is and it has to crash at some stage. Better off being proactive than waiting for that to happen.

cletus van damme wrote: »

certain things , including procreation should be above the laws of man.

Absolutely, in an ideal world. But people need to take some responsibility here. Can you imagine Ireland today if we hadn't left the days of the Catholic family with 8-12 kids, behind?

Amirani · 05-10-2013 02:21PM

I presume those if you advocating removal of the one-child policy haven't actually visited China?

Ever experienced a smog-filled Beijing and had difficulty breathing? Ever seen the poverty that many live in due to already stretched resources?

That's without even considering that in and around 75% of China's population supports the one-child policy. What exactly should the West be doing, and what exactly is its mandate?

Fighting Irish · 05-10-2013 02:21PM

we can't sure, the pro life crowd would freak out

Pushtrak · 05-10-2013 02:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree, a similar policy should be adopted almost everywhere. At least for a brief period of time to try and have some control. If you look at how much the population has increased in recent years, it is absolutely staggering! It's only going to be a matter of time until this becomes a major problem, perhaps in our grandchildren's time.

Hans Rosling has a number of Ted Talks that are worth watching. This is one example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTznEIZRkLg

_Redzer_ wrote: »

Never thought about that. In that case make it a scalable fine factored on your income and savings so everyone pays the same percentage, but still make it a hefty percentage to discourage people from doing it.

That isn't something that I can ever see happening. I think it would benefit the country to have a two or three child policy in the country, but charging people to have kids? Wouldn't work. And, all you have to do is consider the general attitude to abortion to know that forced abortions would not fly here at all. In short, don't expect this to ever happen here. This is just a statement of the obvious, really.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Anyway, I don't believe this story. No one forces abortions in China, they just make it so punitive for people tax wise to have more than one kid that it's self policing.

Something not being official policy says nothing about whether it happens or not. It's a widely reported phenomena.

Is it time the west took action against China's 'one-child policy'?

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