Is it time the west took action against China's 'one-child policy'?

My name is URL

http://news.sky.com/story/1150016/china-couple-speak-of-forced-abortion

A couple have told Sky News how they were physically forced into an abortion by the Chinese authorities, three months before their child was due to be born.

At 4am last Friday, a group of 20 officials from the Shandong Province Family Planning Commission forced their way into the home of Zhou Guoqiang and his wife Liu Xinwen.

The officials kicked down the door of the family's home. Mr Zhou was held down while his wife was pulled from her bed and taken away.

Liu Xinwen, 33, was taken to the People's Hospital of Fangzi District in Weifang City where she was injected with an abortion-inducing drug.

This is obviously nothing new for china, but how long is the Western world willing to stand by and accept this as agreeable policy for a potential global superpower? Nations have been hit with sanctions etc for a lot less.

Is it time for us to do something about this barbaric practice?

Eight Ball

No. It's none of our business.

Daniel2590

Well when you consider they have over a billion people.. Yeah sure lets let the families have 4/5 kids, sure what's the harm!

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I think Ireland should unilaterally declare war on the nuclear armed 5 million strong Chinese army. If we pray everyday to Jesus and squeeze each others hands really hard with our eyes closed singing Wolfetones tunes I think, in fact, I know, we can defeat these people.

BRING IT ON!!!

_Redzer_

The world is so fucked up in so many different ways and it's hard to interfere lot of the time without a massive war, so I don't know what to think. I believe a fine to anyone who has more than one child is the only way to go, abortion at 6 months is fucking nuts!

There are a billion people in China, I agree with them putting a limit on families, but I think 2-3 children should be allowed. I also think our global population should be limited to that number because there's so many of us, it's not just me picking on China.

kneemos

Thought they were abandoning the idea due to their aging population and scarcity of females.

reach for the stars

Shag all the west could do about it .They are a superpower and are bankrolling half the world.

Jonny7

It's been around since the 70's, not much can be done really.

BBDBB

depends..........how much oil do they have?

MadYaker

The Americans should invade.

My name is URL

Eight Ball wrote: »

No. It's none of our business.

Pull over the curtains and pretend it's not happening then... back to the insular Ireland of the 50's with us!

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's been around since the 70's, not much can be done really.

Well, that's an awfully defeatist mindset you have there! Is there some sort of statute of limitation which applies to violent abuses of human rights? If such barbaric things become 'tradition' then there's no point in trying to change things?

I know you don't feel that way because you often partake in discussion about 'traditionalist' human rights abuses elsewhere.

BrokenArrows

Yes its a terrible thing that some families are forced to have an abortion.
But everyone knows the rules.
Contraception is available.
Permanent solutions are available.

So no. The west should not get involved because we don't have the right.

Benny_Cake

It's a really ugly policy. I'm at a loss as to what can be done about it though. Two positives: It's a lot more difficult to cover stuff like this up in China now. Also, the policy will probably be significantly relaxed if not done away with in the next few years as China's population growth has stabilised.

Doesn't help this unfortunate couple, though.

snubbleste

Imagine if China had not introduced the one child policy 40 years ago, you'd be looking at serious problems today not just in China but globally.
There is only so many resources in the world and there is only so many humans the planet can support.

jimmytwotimes 2013

this policy is China's business and nobody else's to be honest. Unless the west is offering to feed the extra population it should butt out.

the west has plenty of problems closer to home that it could concentrate on.

MOC88

My name is URL wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1150016/china-couple-speak-of-forced-abortion



This is obviously nothing new for china, but how long is the Western world willing to stand by and accept this as agreeable policy for a potential global superpower? Nations have been hit with sanctions etc for a lot less.

Is it time for us to do something about this barbaric practice?

They are a superpower just by strength of numbers - once they have their first aircraft carrier they'll be global.

What practical sanctions do you suggest btw?

hfallada

It's one of the reasons why the Chinese economy has been totally transformed. People only have a child therefore they can actually financial support it

Look at Africa which could do with a one child's policy. People in Uganda having 6/7 children and can't afford to support one of them. But the west steps in and supports their choice to have a half dozen children. Africa might have had some serious economic growth if they could support themselves.

pedanticpat

No, it's overpopulated enough. Leave them be.

vitani

Just an idle thought, but I take it there's exceptions made to the policy if a Chinese woman becomes pregnant with twins or triplets?

My name is URL

snubbleste wrote: »

Imagine if China had not introduced the one child policy 40 years ago, you'd be looking at serious problems today not just in China but globally.
There is only so many resources in the world and there is only so many humans the planet can support.

So why are we not doing the same thing? Better to know that millions of distant strangers are suffering in exchange for a world we choose to live in? We're all too happy to have them manufacture us disposable consumerist crap.. it's us that benefit from population controls in China. Not the people actually experiencing it.

JRant

It boils down to simple maths really. If they allowed every couple to have 3/4/5/6 kids then the population would exponentially increase and cripple the whole country and possibly destabilise the World.

vitani

vitani wrote: »

Just an idle thought, but I take it there's exceptions made to the policy if a Chinese woman becomes pregnant with twins or triplets?

Twins sought[edit]
Since there are no penalties for multiple births, it is believed that an increasing number of couples are turning to fertility medicines to induce the conception of twins. According to a 2006 China Daily report, the number of twins born per year in China had doubled.[timeframe?][117]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Twins_sought

JRant

My name is URL wrote: »

So why are we not doing the same thing? Better to know that millions of distant strangers are suffering in exchange for a world we choose to live in? We're all too happy to have them manufacture us disposable consumerist crap.. it's us that benefit from population controls in China. Not the people actually experiencing it.

That's an unusual way of looking at it. Those measures were brought in for the benefit of China and China only. When was the last time China introduced any policy that wasn't solely for their own benefit?

Laois_Man

Dear China

I know we owe you about 13 Trillion dollars.
And I know the US national debt is increasing at the rate of a million dollars every 90 seconds.
And I know the bulk of that money is coming from you.
But ya better sort out your **** fast...or we'll do stuff to ya that'll..... er.....make sure we don't get access tp these funds anymore


Regards;

Barrack

Femme_Fatale

I don't see anything wrong with concerns regarding what goes on in societies far afield, but when it comes to "Should the West do xyz", what can the West do? How does it go about it? The West is huge and broad - why is responsibility directed at people on a tiny island like Ireland? How much of a jurisdiction does the West have?

Depp

its nothing to do with us and we should keep our noses out of it

pablomakaveli

I went to college with a couple of Chinese students and i asked them what they thought of the one child policy and was surprised when they said they agreed with it.

They reckoned China was too overpopulated and the one child policy was needed though this forced abortion thing must be in rural China as one of the students i knew had a twin. They told me families would have to pay a fine if they had more than one child so i can't imagine forced abortions is an official course of action.

Chinasea

Totally agree with population 'awareness'.

Duckjob

We have the opposite problem here - certain parts of society happily popping out sprog after sprog that they can't support and the state happily picking up the tab for it.

Sounds like a rogue local government operation - AFAIK certainly in the big cities in China the parents will be levied with a fine for violating the policy but certainly nothing like this.

KingOfFairview

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I went to college with a couple of Chinese students and i asked them what they thought of the one child policy and was surprised when they said they agreed with it.

They reckoned China was too overpopulated and the one child policy was needed though this forced abortion thing must be in rural China as one of the students i knew had a twin. They told me families would have to pay a fine if they had more than one child so i can't imagine forced abortions is an official course of action.

Indeed, my old Chinese barber had 3 kids and he said he just got some minor fine or tax hike. The days when the west could dictate to China ended about 64 years ago.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

My name is URL wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1150016/china-couple-speak-of-forced-abortion



This is obviously nothing new for china, but how long is the Western world willing to stand by and accept this as agreeable policy for a potential global superpower? Nations have been hit with sanctions etc for a lot less.

Is it time for us to do something about this barbaric practice?

How do you propose the "west" do something?

323

None of our business. Besides, there is more than enough of them already.

Drakares

There are more soldiers in the Chinese army than there are, people living in Ireland.

UCDVet

To be honest - I think the west should be adopting their policies....

In China you can have more than one child. You just lose certain benefits given to parents, like tax breaks, and have to pay additional costs. Those additional costs/fees are certainly less that the cost of educating your child.

Personally, I think it's a great program.

A significant portion of taxpayer money goes to things like education costs. Why shouldn't the parents be the ones that pay?

Beyond that, in my own anecdotal experience, it seems like (most of the time) those parents who are least equipped to raise children are the ones having the most of them. I don't know if it is true in Ireland, but it is true in a lot of places, the poorer someone is, the more children (on average) they have. We shouldn't encourage that.

I know the counter-argument is 'Who should tell someone how many children they can have.' But that argument doesn't seem very strong in the context of a modern society where we happily tell everyone else what they can and can't do with their bodies and happily seize their income. If you want to me to fund a child's healthcare and education, you can't, in the same breath, tell me it is none of my business how many children someone has.

wendell borton

We could do with a similar policy where.

I agree, a similar policy should be adopted almost everywhere. At least for a brief period of time to try and have some control. If you look at how much the population has increased in recent years, it is absolutely staggering! It's only going to be a matter of time until this becomes a major problem, perhaps in our grandchildren's time.

Jonny7

My name is URL wrote: »

Well, that's an awfully defeatist mindset you have there! Is there some sort of statute of limitation which applies to violent abuses of human rights? If such barbaric things become 'tradition' then there's no point in trying to change things?

I know you don't feel that way because you often partake in discussion about 'traditionalist' human rights abuses elsewhere.

Why this sudden random concern for the one child policy?.. of all the horrors in the world, actually of all the horrors in modern day China why suddenly get all uppity about this?.. bit odd to say the least.. and yes it is a tragedy, not much can be done, the heads of state go to China, they complain about the human rights issues, but they can no more affect domestic policy more than they can affect Iranians stoning people to death or African countries mutilating young girls..

I also have a strange feeling you'd be the first in line to complain about action or sanctions - pointing out "Western hypocrisy".. or am I getting you confused with someone else

bnt

The recently-departed Tom Clancy covered this type of scenario in his novel The Bear and the Dragon (2000), and had his own prescription for what to do about it. Without spoiling the story: the President (Jack Ryan) is enraged by an incident in China, in which hospital officials attempted to perform the ultimate in late term abortions on a 2nd child. A local Baptist minister and an official from the Vatican attempt to intervene and are killed, sparking a major diplomatic incident and a trade war. Ryan, a Catholic, was never a fan of the one-child policy in the first place, and this sends him round the bend, up the wall, and over the top.

In the book, the USA had previously passed a "Trade Reform Act" which basically says "whatever you do to us, we can do to you". For example: since the USA's market is open to Chinese goods, the Chinese market must be equally open to US goods - or else. So they start enforcing it on China, which puts the regime there on the back foot and they feel they have to to invade Siberia for oil.

The fictional scenario isn't possible today, at least partly because China holds over a $Trillion of US Debt, which is basically an economic gun pointed at the USA's head. If the USA screws with China in any way, they can just close that tap and refuse to lend more - which the USA is going to need in a few weeks (when they raise the Debt Ceiling).

The other problem is the political situation in the USA, the deep divisions between the parties in Congress. You have a Republican core running the Senate that will oppose anything the Democratic President does, whether or not they agree with it in principle. Questions of "right" and "wrong" don't make it in to the room, never mind on to the table. In the book, partisan disagreements are shelved in the interests of a united front against China, which is why Clancy's ideas will remain in the realm of fiction.

JustAddWater

_Redzer_ wrote: »

I believe a fine to anyone who has more than one child is the only way to go, abortion at 6 months is fucking nuts!

What about rich people who just keep paying the fine to have kids?

Just becomes a charge to have extra kids as opposed to a fine

It is nuts, barbaric even. They need to be pulled up on it. Despicable from a country which could be the worlds new superpower someday

Mr Benevolent

My name is URL wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1150016/china-couple-speak-of-forced-abortion



This is obviously nothing new for china, but how long is the Western world willing to stand by and accept this as agreeable policy for a potential global superpower? Nations have been hit with sanctions etc for a lot less.

Is it time for us to do something about this barbaric practice?

Yeah, let's send the US Air Force into China to instill good American values.

_Redzer_

JustAddWater wrote: »

What about rich people who just keep paying the fine to have kids?

Just becomes a charge to have extra kids as opposed to a fine

It is nuts, barbaric even. They need to be pulled up on it. Despicable from a country which could be the worlds new superpower someday

Never thought about that. In that case make it a scalable fine factored on your income and savings so everyone pays the same percentage, but still make it a hefty percentage to discourage people from doing it.

Teyla Emmagan

No, in fact India should introduce the same policy next. Better to give one child a good quality of life than have a rake of them living in squalor and deprivation.

Anyway, I don't believe this story. No one forces abortions in China, they just make it so punitive for people tax wise to have more than one kid that it's self policing.

I have a Chinese friend in Beijing who has 2 kids, she was once married to an Australian so has dual nationality now. And people in rural areas over there can have more than 1 kid (tax free) to help with the farming. And if your first child dies you can have another one. There is a bit of give in the policy.

Bog Standard User

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think Ireland should unilaterally declare war on the nuclear armed 5 million strong Chinese army. If we pray everyday to Jesus and squeeze each others hands really hard with our eyes closed singing Wolfetones tunes I think, in fact, I know, we can defeat these people.

BRING IT ON!!!

ah here leave it out!!!! where would we get your cheap yet poorly constructed counterfit electronics from?

kc90

My name is URL wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1150016/china-couple-speak-of-forced-abortion



This is obviously nothing new for china, but how long is the Western world willing to stand by and accept this as agreeable policy for a potential global superpower? Nations have been hit with sanctions etc for a lot less.

Is it time for us to do something about this barbaric practice?

First off, I don't agree with this.

But, the one child policy is by no means a secret. You want a 2nd child, then you pay. The Chinese population is unsustainable, and although this isn't an ideal solution, something needs to be done. I don't think another country should interfere with this.

cletus van damme

ideally there are enough resources in the world for teh current and bigger populations but the sharing of these resources is imbalanced.

however I think it's morally wrong tp force people not to reproduce.
The policy itself is immoral.

certain things , including procreation should be above the laws of man.

My name is URL

Jonny7 wrote: »

Why this sudden random concern for the one child policy?.. of all the horrors in the world, actually of all the horrors in modern day China why suddenly get all uppity about this?.. bit odd to say the least.. and yes it is a tragedy, not much can be done, the heads of state go to China, they complain about the human rights issues, but they can no more affect domestic policy more than they can affect Iranians stoning people to death or African countries mutilating young girls..

It's not sudden or random. It happens to be in the news atm hence the thread and the link to the article. It's topical, and topical stuff tends to be discussed =/

Forced abortion like this is already supposedly illegal under Chinese law, so no arms need to be twisted to have new laws introduced. All that needs to happen is pressure to be put on the government to properly deal with this stuff when it does happen, and not sweep it under the rug and try to distance themselves from it. They're the ones ultimately responsible due to the immense pressure they put on local officials. China needs to be held to a higher standard than other backwards shitholes where human rights abuses are common.

KingOfFairview

My name is URL wrote: »

All that needs to happen is pressure to be put on the government to properly deal with this stuff when it does happen, and not sweep it under the rug and try to distance themselves from it.

In your own time, tell us what pressure you propose to put on the People's Republic of China that would have any effect at all on this issue.

My name is URL

KingOfFairview wrote: »

In your own time, tell us what pressure you propose to put on the People's Republic of China that would have any effect at all on this issue.

I don't know the exact answer to that. But the United Nations Human Rights Council exists to deal with this very stuff. I wonder if they'll pass a resolution condemning what happened.. fat chance, I'd say.

Dravokivich

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't know the exact answer to that. But the United Nations Human Rights Council exists to deal with this very stuff. I wonder if they'll pass a resolution condemning what happened.. fat chance, I'd say.

But the government arent enforcing the late term abortions. It came up somewhere here a year ago with another report similar to the one in the op. It was some over zealous civil servant then and I suspect it may be the same again now.

Hilly Bill

To be fair there are billions of Chinese people in the world as it is. If all the chinese people in the world was to stand side by side holding hand around the world then



Half of them would drown. .


Maybe Ireland should take up the chinese method of controlling how many kids the Junkies have. The amount of Junkies out of their heads pushing prams is unreal.

circadian

Sky News, probably not the full story.

/closethread.