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Doctors going on strike hurting patients?

  • 04-10-2013 11:15PM
    #1
    stumfit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9 ✭


    I was listening to the radio this morning and Minister O Reilly was saying that the doctors going on strike next Tuesday would leave many patients in pain or even worse in some cases. Surely this has to be stopped? who will be there if the doctors walk out?


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Comments

  • #2
    wazky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    stumfit wrote: »
    who will be there if the doctors walk out?

    The patients will?


  • #3
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Junior doctors can be expected to work 35 hours on the trot, with the odd short break for a power-nap. That is utter insanity, and dangerous to patients as well as doctors.
    Blame whoever or whatever permits this craziness.


  • #4
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    stumfit wrote: »
    I was listening to the radio this morning and Minister O Reilly was saying that the doctors going on strike next Tuesday would leave many patients in pain or even worse in some cases. Surely this has to be stopped? who will be there if the doctors walk out?


    An unfortunate side-effect of the media witchunt of the public service.

    Cut pay,increase workload and something has to give...Doctors are humans with bills and lives too.


  • #5
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    stumfit wrote: »
    I was listening to the radio this morning and Minister O Reilly was saying that the doctors going on strike next Tuesday would leave many patients in pain or even worse in some cases. Surely this has to be stopped? who will be there if the doctors walk out?

    And making junior doctors work inhumanly long shift doesn't endanger patients, of course.


  • #6
    alchemist33
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,969 ✭✭✭✭alchemist33


    And the Minister thinks doctors working 24 hours straight is just fine for patients. It seems becoming a minister wiped the early part of his career from his memory.


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  • #7
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    Their working hours are too long, dangerously long. When doctors are saying that they're a danger to patients as a result of the hours that they work they need to be taken seriously.


  • #8
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Junior doctors can be expected to work 35 hours on the trot

    ****ing nuts. I support them 100% and I'm far from a sycophant for protected species professionals.


  • #9
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Junior doctors can be expected to work 35 hours on the trot, with the odd short break for a power-nap. That is utter insanity, and dangerous to patients as well as doctors.
    Blame whoever or whatever permits this craziness.
    If it was any other industry it wouldn't be allowed. Bus drivers driving for 35 hours? Not a chance.
    But because doctors "have always done it" then they have to keep doing it.


  • #10
    hawkelady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    stumfit wrote: »
    I was listening to the radio this morning and Minister O Reilly was saying that the doctors going on strike next Tuesday would leave many patients in pain or even worse in some cases. Surely this has to be stopped? who will be there if the doctors walk out?

    Isn't it just the junior doctors that are striking and O'Reilly would say that wouldn't he !! He's hardly going to say " fair play guys , " sure in a former life didn't he negotiate a good deal for himself and his peers. Doesn't suit him to that nowadays though.


  • #11
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    stumfit wrote: »
    I was listening to the radio this morning and Minister O Reilly was saying that the doctors going on strike next Tuesday would leave many patients in pain or even worse in some cases. Surely this has to be stopped? who will be there if the doctors walk out?


    The already overworked and underpaid nurses of course.


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  • #12
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Junior doctors can be expected to work 35 hours on the trot, with the odd short break for a power-nap. That is utter insanity, and dangerous to patients as well as doctors.
    Blame whoever or whatever permits this craziness.
    anncoates wrote: »
    And making junior doctors work inhumanly long shift doesn't endanger patients, of course.
    Charlie Rock wrote: »
    ****ing nuts. I support them 100% and I'm far from a sycophant for protected species professionals.

    Agree with all of the above.

    One of the most depressing threads I ever read was over in Health Sciences where an Irish doctor returned from working abroad and documented his time working here over a couple of years.

    It just sounded horrific.


  • #13
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alchemist33 wrote: »
    And the Minister thinks doctors working 24 hours straight is just fine for patients. It seems becoming a minister wiped the early part of his career from his memory.
    In the interests of balance, I think it's only fair to remark that the (ridiculously) long shift work for junior doctors incorporates an on-call period, where the doctor gets to sleep periodically.

    Obviously there are busier times, and yes, people have difficulty going back to sleep after a stressful event arises. Nevertheless, there can be a perception that doctors are literally working straight through these long shifts, without sleeping.

    As bad as the situation must be for these guys, and I wouldn't dream of defending it, sometimes the hype runs away with us.


  • #14
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    In the interests of balance, I think it's only fair to remark that the (ridiculously) long shift work for junior doctors incorporates an on-call period, where the doctor gets to sleep periodically.

    Obviously there are busier times, and yes, people have difficulty going back to sleep after a stressful event arises. Nevertheless, there can be a perception that doctors are literally working straight through these long shifts, without sleeping.

    As bad as the situation must be for these guys, and I wouldn't dream of defending it, sometimes the hype runs away with us.
    It's not hype. I'm not one for hyperbole, believe me. We're talking 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour here and there - it's nowhere near good enough. It's probably just about enough to stop them from keeling over, that's all.


  • #15
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »

    Obviously there are busier times, .

    In a shambles of a health system, yes I'd say there is.


  • #16
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    This is the thread I was talking about

    The poster talks about how endemic is the expectation that 84 hour shifts are the norm and not getting any sleep on a 72 hour shift, and raising concerns being told to suck it up essentially.


  • #17
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Stheno wrote: »
    This is the thread I was talking about

    The poster talks about how endemic is the expectation that 84 hour shifts are the norm and not getting any sleep on a 72 hour shift, and raising concerns being told to suck it up essentially.
    Surely that would cause some people to, after a while, literally go mad.


  • #18
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    In the interests of balance, I think it's only fair to remark that the (ridiculously) long shift work for junior doctors incorporates an on-call period, where the doctor gets to sleep periodically.

    Obviously there are busier times, and yes, people have difficulty going back to sleep after a stressful event arises. Nevertheless, there can be a perception that doctors are literally working straight through these long shifts, without sleeping.

    As bad as the situation must be for these guys, and I wouldn't dream of defending it, sometimes the hype runs away with us.
    I'd second this. I've a friend who's recently qualified and been through it. It really wasn't bad. Busy lifestyle but overall grand.

    That said it's a completely daft system that needs to be changed.


  • #19
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Surely that would cause some people to, after a while, literally go mad.

    It's a seriously depressing read from the start where the poster is hopeful, through to the end where they are then considering emigrating to escape the system here.

    I'd a temporary role a while back where I worked an average of 14-16 hours a day, and at one point had one day off in 17, and after about two months of it I literally collapsed from the stress.

    I cannot imagine the horror of working the sort of hours junior doctors do, with the responsibilities they have.


  • #20
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    humbert wrote: »
    I'd second this. I've a friend who's recently qualified and been through it. It really wasn't bad. Busy lifestyle but overall grand.

    That said it's a completely daft system that needs to be changed.
    Your one friend is probably an exception.
    I think it's pretty reasonable to find shifts that last days, with the odd short break for getting a few minutes' sleep (how generous!) to be a difficult work set-up.

    Always people who go against the grain against commonsense and basic logic on these threads.


  • #21
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    stumfit wrote: »
    I was listening to the radio this morning and Minister O Reilly was saying that the doctors going on strike next Tuesday would leave many patients in pain or even worse in some cases. Surely this has to be stopped? who will be there if the doctors walk out?

    Is this your first time to listen to the news, try and listen a bit more and get a bit more exposure of the situation before you come to a conclusion like that.
    Can you imagine being seriously ill in the ER, and a young person male or female no matter what colour, on their feet for the previous 24 to 36 hours making a decision on whether you live or die. Cop on.


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  • #22
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Your one friend is probably an exception.
    I think it's pretty reasonable to find shifts that last days, with the odd short break for getting a few minutes' sleep (how generous!) to be a difficult work set-up.

    Always people who go against the grain against commonsense and basic logic on these threads.
    I didn't mean to imply that he was not working long shifts. He was, but he was getting enough sleep. He was in the hospital on call, but getting sleep.

    He's not one to be pushed around and I think that made a significant difference.

    Again, I'm not defending the practice. It does need to be changed but when stories like this make the news there is exaggeration on all sides.

    (I have more than one friend btw :P )


  • #23
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    I meant "one friend" as in, one junior doctor who's fairly ok about it!


  • #24
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    humbert wrote: »
    I didn't mean to imply that he was not working long shifts. He was, but he was getting enough sleep. He was in the hospital on call, but getting sleep.

    He's not one to be pushed around and I think that made a significant difference.

    Again, I'm not defending the practice. It does need to be changed but when stories like this make the news there is exaggeration on all sides.

    (I have more than one friend btw :P )

    I think the fact that a high majority of junior doctors have voted to take this action, but put in limits so they protect certain services, shows just how at the end of their tether the majority are at?

    There were a couple of suicides I think last year in Tallaght, which were not discussed much in the media, but linked to the horrendous working hours.

    Losing just one life as a result of an archaic practice is one too many, how many patients are being put at risk as a result of this practice continuing?

    I well remember one time ending up in hospital for five days with suspected appendicitis and on the eve of surgery after being there for five days being told, a blood test result had been missed and I actually had a kidney infection (a fairly severe one mind you)

    I could have ended up having unnecessary surgery due to a mistake (possibly caused by tiredness) had I not been fairly forward in asking how they determined the diagnosis, and a senior doctor noticing I walked wrong for someone with appendicitis


  • #25
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Completely support them, dangerously stupid working hours.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #26
    dotsman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Blame whoever or whatever permits this craziness.
    The unions.

    The hours that Junior Doctors work is no secret, nor anything new. It's the same with many of the gripes that most other unionised public sector professions complain about. That's all the unions do - complain... and then secure a pay rise for their members.

    During the boom years, we saw it all - Doctors, nurses, guards etc. Every time, a payrise was the solution, but nothing was ever done to address the underlying issues. Why? Well, if they where to ever fix the issues, then they would never be able to argue for another payrise.

    If we were still in the boom, the doctors would still threaten strike, but another bumper payrise would be offered and, suddenly, this would all go away.

    I fully agree that Junior doctors should not be working those ridiculous hours. Just like a agree with many (not all) of the complaints that public sector workers have, but:
    • A - in terms of blame, it lies with those who offered/settled for payrises instead of fixing the problems over the past few decades and;
    • B - Will the doctors surrender all the past payrises they received as payoffs for these conditions if their working hours are reduced?

    The simple reality is that our public services cost us a hell of a lot more than they did just a decade or two ago, yet none of that money seems to have gone to making them better places to work, nor better services for the public.


  • #27
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    Stheno wrote: »
    I think the fact that a high majority of junior doctors have voted to take this action, but put in limits so they protect certain services, shows just how at the end of their tether the majority are at?
    Not really tbh. It's simply consistent with the Hippocratic oath and if I were to be cynical I might suggest that it was necessary to mitigate public backlash.
    Stheno wrote: »
    There were a couple of suicides I think last year in Tallaght, which were not discussed much in the media, but linked to the horrendous working hours.

    Losing just one life as a result of an archaic practice is one too many, how many patients are being put at risk as a result of this practice continuing?

    I well remember one time ending up in hospital for five days with suspected appendicitis and on the eve of surgery after being there for five days being told, a blood test result had been missed and I actually had a kidney infection (a fairly severe one mind you)

    I could have ended up having unnecessary surgery due to a mistake (possibly caused by tiredness) had I not been fairly forward in asking how they determined the diagnosis, and a senior doctor noticing I walked wrong for someone with appendicitis
    There's a shameful amount of speculation here. I can't find an article but don't doctors have a significantly higher rate of suicide across the board? I have some recollection that GPs stand out.

    I really don't know what to say to your second point. Seriously?

    Again, I'm not against doctors or the need for change. The practice is clearly daft.


  • #28
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    dotsman wrote: »
    our public services cost us a hell of a lot more than they did just a decade or two ago, yet none of that money seems to have gone to making them better places to work, nor better services for the public.
    From what I'm learning, a good few public/semi-state services are being outsourced to private companies - I'd imagine this could mean an improvement.


  • #29
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Junior doctors can be expected to work 35 hours on the trot, with the odd short break for a power-nap. That is utter insanity, and dangerous to patients as well as doctors.
    Blame whoever or whatever permits this craziness.
    This +1000
    I havent read the rest of the thread because there is no point.
    There are laws preventing my employer from making me work more than x no. of hours. But doctors and surgeons nurses are exempt from this??!!
    I would have thought, given that one of the above could have sharp pointy metal mere millimetres or less away from my aorta, that the above affected would be allowed have whatever sleep they wanted? But what do i know?

    I really do think there are people seriously benefitting from the current arrangement and they will continue to benefit if it stays the same. No tin foil hats, just plain old observation.


  • #30
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    It's not hype. I'm not one for hyperbole, believe me. We're talking 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour here and there - it's nowhere near good enough. It's probably just about enough to stop them from keeling over, that's all.
    It probably depends on the hospital. Your average SHO in a country Hospital, with 30 sleeping Grannies under his roof is going to have a far less stressful zillion hour shift than an SHO in Tallaght or the Mater or that. On the other hand, in the latter cases I would just assume there is a rota for on-call work divided by the various departments.

    I don't want to come across as defending the practice as it is. My point is only that the experiences I have heard is of of junior doctors who do manage to get rest, it's just that they report problems sleeping and related issues, which undermines the rest they get. It isn't literally a case of always being on duty and on their feet for 35 hours, which might be the perception.


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  • #31
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    humbert wrote: »

    There's a shameful amount of speculation here. I can't find an article but don't doctors have a significantly higher rate of suicide across the board? I have some recollection that GPs stand out.

    I really don't know what to say to your second point. Seriously?

    Again, I'm not against doctors or the need for change. The practice is clearly daft.

    No speculation on point one see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056828675&page=2 It was two junior doctors who commited suicide, plenty of supplementary artciles etc in the thread I've linked to.

    My second point is that having been admitted to a and e at 9pm one evening, it took five days just before I had surgery for doctors to reexamine original blood tests (I only had one set taken) and find a result that had previously been missed.

    I can see how tiredness could have caused that.


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