Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

bilston · 03-10-2013 03:30PM

Cards on the table people.

Leaving the HEC and ERC to the side for the minute, what is your preference?

No European Competition at all

or

Entering the Rugby Champions Cup reluctantly or otherwise

I assume the majority would prefer if the HEC continued with the odd tweak here and there (that's certainly my preference) but if you can imagine a world without it how do you want to see things unfold? I'm tempted to start a poll but that would mean starting a new thread which is the last thing we need!

For me I don't think we can afford even a season without European rugby and if the ERC and HEC are wound up then I think we have to be in the new competition provided the criteria isn't completely unreasonable.

Podge_irl · 03-10-2013 03:46PM

The Rooster wrote: »

Nobody said it was likely, I was refuting you saying it could never happen.

The way it could happen, IMO, is if the impasse continues, and the English clubs get desperate in their attemps to secure the full BT monies, because the Celts refuse to play in their competition.

I don't think its beyond the bounds of possibility for the PRL to make an offer to the 4 Welsh regions. Join our Cup competition now and we'll allow you into our league later (subject to giving the requisite notice etc.)

2 to go into the Premiership, 2 to go into the Championship, increasing the premiership to 14 teams. It wouldnt be ideal from an English point of view, but each club would get more money out of it, and it would pretty much guarantee the other Celts would have no choice but to join the cup competition, thus more money again for the PRL clubs.

Its a potential card up the sleeve of the PRL that undoubtedly they would prefer not to play, so nobody could say its likely to happen, and as I said it would probably be the very worst possible outcome from an Irish viewpoint. But I think it would be foolish to regard it as impossible.

Just like it would be foolish to put all our chickens in the basket of:
The RFU will never allow the new European competition
The IRB will never allow the new European competition

At the end of day, its professional sport, and money talks

I think the odds of the RFU and IRB allowing this new competition are orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude more likely than the Welsh joining the Premiership. The English clubs don't want "regions" in their league, they don't want an expanded premiership and they don't want the Welsh. They also won't want to have to deal with the WRU, while the WRU won't want their teams joining PRL.

I'm concerned about the European impasse. But I'm not even remotely bothered about the possibility of the Welsh leaving to join the Premiership. I don't doubt they would if they could - they made plenty of noise about it for years - but the English simply do not want them and you'll never get the club owners to ever agree to it.

The Rooster · 03-10-2013 04:03PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm concerned about the European impasse. But I'm not even remotely bothered about the possibility of the Welsh leaving to join the Premiership. I don't doubt they would if they could - they made plenty of noise about it for years - but the English simply do not want them and you'll never get the club owners to ever agree to it.

Well we're agreed on the Welsh would love it, and the English were dead against it up to now. We'll agree to disagree on the ability of the English club owners to change their minds on the issue given the current crisis.

bilston wrote: »

Cards on the table people.
Leaving the HEC and ERC to the side for the minute, what is your preference?

No European Competition at all
or
Entering the Rugby Champions Cup reluctantly or otherwise

I assume the majority would prefer if the HEC continued with the odd tweak here and there (that's certainly my preference) but if you can imagine a world without it how do you want to see things unfold? I'm tempted to start a poll but that would mean starting a new thread which is the last thing we need!

For me I don't think we can afford even a season without European rugby and if the ERC and HEC are wound up then I think we have to be in the new competition provided the criteria isn't completely unreasonable.

No brainer from the perspective of Munster, Leinster and Ulster fans that a new competition would be preferable to no competition. It wouldnt really affect us. If you're a fan of a team in the bottom half of the Rabo, then you'd probably prefer not to join the new competition even if it meant no European competition for a year (because your team wouldnt be in the Heino version of the new one anyway) and then hope a compromise is reached the following year.

Phonehead · 03-10-2013 04:06PM

The Welsh under the WRU will never (IMO) be welcomed by the Owners/RFU to join the English leagues, the WRU also probably wouldn't want to deal with all these stakeholders. The Welsh without the WRU support???? I can't see them being able to compete in the Premiership. The Welsh fans are not behind the regions and the Welsh clubs don't have anywhere near the finances to play in a the premiership. At this point I rather we had a year without European competition because this is a battle for control of Rugby Union, I don't want the owners running our sport.

The Rooster · 03-10-2013 04:23PM

Phonehead wrote: »

The Welsh under the WRU will never (IMO) be welcomed by the Owners/RFU to join the English leagues .

Well I think the PRL club owners have less qualms about who they deal with if it means a heap load of extra BT money in their pocket!

I also did imagine a brand new British/Irish league. Top 8 in PRL and Top 6 in Rabo form a new Premier 1 division. The remainder go into Premier 2. Both divisions with extensive TV deals, so while the Premier 1 teams would get the most money, there'd only be a small reduction for the Prem 2 teams. Of course relegation/promotion between the divisions.
I do admit there is no chance of this seeing the light of day

bilston · 03-10-2013 04:26PM

Phonehead wrote: »

The Welsh under the WRU will never (IMO) be welcomed by the Owners/RFU to join the English leagues, the WRU also probably wouldn't want to deal with all these stakeholders. The Welsh without the WRU support???? I can't see them being able to compete in the Premiership. The Welsh fans are not behind the regions and the Welsh clubs don't have anywhere near the finances to play in a the premiership. At this point I rather we had a year without European competition because this is a battle for control of Rugby Union, I don't want the owners running our sport.

Even one year without European rugby could be a huge blow. How do the provinces/union pay the players for that season? How do you attract players for that season, will current players want to stay, maybe they'll leave and move to France and not come back.

It's a big big risk, something would have to replace it. I'm not sure what that would be. The IRFU would almost certainly need to play a 4th Autumn test. Maybe they could have a trial game between the Probables and Possibles like the days of yore and sell tickets to it and hope that RTE or Sky pick it up, but I can't see that generating huge income. Maybe Ireland, Scotland and Wales can get together and play some kind of Celtic tournament, maybe involve the Italians but in reality it would just be a mini Six Nations and probably wouldn't capture the public's imagination but I suppose if it generates a bit of income it may be worth it for a year if there is no European domestic rugby.

bilston · 03-10-2013 04:29PM

The Rooster wrote: »

I also did imagine a brand new British/Irish league. Top 8 in PRL and Top 6 in Rabo form a new Premier 1 division. The remainder go into Premier 2. Both divisions with extensive TV deals, so while the Premier 1 teams would get the most money, there'd only be a small reduction for the Prem 2 teams. Of course relegation/promotion between the divisions.
I do admit there is no chance of this seeing the light of day

I actually think that this is an obvious solution though. The Italians can join with the French and we just have two leagues in Europe instead of one.

It may happen one day but I don't think that day will happen anytime soon as no one will ever agree on how to run it or who should run for that matter. Still the TV deals and sponsorship deals could be very attractive indeed. It would definitely appeal to most supporters as well.

rrpc · 03-10-2013 04:30PM

There's no reason to believe that the HEC wouldn't continue in a slimmed down form if the remaining unions wanted it to. There's the added possibility that the FFR (and even possibly the RFU) could continue on inside the tent. It's been done before without England.

Phonehead · 03-10-2013 04:31PM

bilston wrote: »

I actually think that this is an obvious solution though. The Italians can join with the French and we just have two leagues in Europe instead of one.

It may happen one day but I don't think that day will happen anytime soon as no one will ever agree on how to run it or who should run for that matter. Still the TV deals and sponsorship deals could be very attractive indeed. It would definitely appeal to most supporters as well.

I'd prefer if the Irish were in France, the Premiership product is light years behind.

bilston · 03-10-2013 04:37PM

Back to The Rooster's idea, slightly tweaked to two leagues of 12 with the Italians joining with the French, based on last season you could end up with the following two divisions.

Div 1 (Top 6 PRL/Top 6 Pro 12)
Saracens
Leicester
Harlequins
Northampton
Gloucester
Exeter
Ulster
Leinster
Glasgow
Scarlets
Ospreys
Munster

Div 2 (Bottom 6 PRL/Bottom 6 Pro 12 minus Italians/Top 2 Championship)
Bath
London Wasps
London Irish
Sale
Worcester
London Welsh
Newcastle
Nottingham
Connacht
Cardiff
Edinburgh
Dragons

I think that would work as a spectacle anyway.

bilston · 03-10-2013 04:40PM

Phonehead wrote: »

I'd prefer if the Irish were in France, the Premiership product is light years behind.

Well the problem with that is that travelling expenses would be a lot more for both teams and supporters. Also remember there are probably close to a millions Celts living in London alone, many of whom would be deemed part of "The Rugby Dempographic" and finally the introduction of the Celtic sides would probably lift the new competition to a level that would surpass the Top 14 even with the inclusion of the Italian sides.

Phonehead · 03-10-2013 04:42PM

bilston wrote: »

Back to The Rooster's idea, slightly tweaked to two leagues of 12 with the Italians joining with the French, based on last season you could end up with the following two divisions.

Div 1 (Top 6 PRL/Top 6 Pro 12)
Saracens
Leicester
Harlequins
Northampton
Gloucester
Exeter
Ulster
Leinster
Glasgow
Scarlets
Ospreys
Munster

Div 2 (Bottom 6 PRL/Bottom 6 Pro 12 minus Italians/Top 2 Championship)
Bath
London Wasps
London Irish
Sale
Worcester
London Welsh
Newcastle
Nottingham
Connacht
Cardiff
Edinburgh
Dragons

I think that would work as a spectacle anyway.

And the business owners of current Premiership clubs will love to be bumped out of the top league. It's just not workable

bilston · 03-10-2013 04:43PM

rrpc wrote: »

There's no reason to believe that the HEC wouldn't continue in a slimmed down form if the remaining unions wanted it to.

Then it just becomes another version of the Pro 12, again I suppose for a year that might work provided it isn't a loss making exercise as it really would just be about filling a hole in the calendar and generating at least some of the lost revenue from the HEC but I don't think it would be anything other than a one year solution.

bilston · 03-10-2013 04:45PM

Phonehead wrote: »

And the business owners of current Premiership clubs will love to be bumped out of the top league. It's just not workable

Well I've already said I think it's highly unlikely, in fact virtually zero chance of it happening...at least in the short to medium term... however if you ensure that there is still plenty of cash filtering down to the second tier then financially anyway it could work. Parachute payments etc for relegated sides.

The other alternative is a conference system rather than two divisions.

The Rooster · 03-10-2013 05:18PM

Phonehead wrote: »

And the business owners of current Premiership clubs will love to be bumped out of the top league. It's just not workable

If the new Prem 2 generated as much income as the current PRL and the new Prem1 generated more, then of course it would be workable. But pie in the sky at the same stage !

Beery Eyed · 03-10-2013 05:20PM

I know that we are only dealing in the realm of fantasy here with talk of a combined British & Irish league setup, but it does have a lot of merit in terms of making the most use of team/player resources and ultimately I think it would be a very good product for spectators. Both the divisions 1&2 listed in the earlier post would throw up plenty of very good quality, watchable games throughout a season.

Taking it a step further (and again, this is only making use of our imagination) the idea of a European League, rather than a Cup, which runs for a specific period of the season, similar to that of the Super XV setup, would be an even better situation in my opinion. Having 2-3 divisions of 12/14 teams that are made up of the top French, English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish & Italian teams, playing each other in a league setup with promotion/relegation, would provide a few very strong leagues in a tiered system where each team finds their level.

In this situation all sides could potentially be satisfied. In the sense that the leagues would be run on merit with relegation & promotion, but it would also provide high level games throughout.

Furthermore, if a league like this was run for a certain period of the season, like the Super XV is run, it would also allow for each country to hold their own domestic leagues after it was completed, if they wished. So, similar to the Currie Cup/ITM Cup, the French & English (and even Irish, Welsh, Scottish & Italians) could run their own domestic leagues after the conclusion of the combined league. Just a thought

Phonehead · 03-10-2013 08:13PM

So play 24 games in this European league and then play a further 24 in your domestic league. Then we have Six nations, summer tours, autumn tours, World Cups and Lions Tours.. I think the problem is that Rugby players are probably playing enough games as it is, probably too much and that's where I agree with the French and English clubs regarding downsizing the tournament and having less games.

bilston · 03-10-2013 08:21PM

Phonehead wrote: »

So play 24 games in this European league and then play a further 24 in your domestic league. Then we have Six nations, summer tours, autumn tours, World Cups and Lions Tours.. I think the problem is that Rugby players are probably playing enough games as it is, probably too much and that's where I agree with the French and English clubs regarding downsizing the tournament and having less games.

I suspect the French want to downsize the HEC so that they can turn the Top 14 into a Top 16. I dont think player welfare is on their radar.

Phonehead · 03-10-2013 08:23PM

bilston wrote: »

I suspect the French want to downsize the HEC so that they can turn the Top 14 into a Top 16. I dont think player welfare is on their radar.

Ya not so much player welfare for the French but more making sure they get more T14 time outta their players.

keps · 03-10-2013 10:28PM

Leopold Bloom – eat your kidney out.

Got off the Dart in Tara Street at 12.20pm.

Strolled up to AIB O Connell St to purchase 100 euros worth of Polish currency – sorry sir you have to order in advance.

Into BOI O Connell street- the earliest we could have them for you would be next Tuesday.

Into BOI College Green – yes we have a whopping 84 euros worth of Zlotys here – do you feel safe leaving the premises with that amount or would you like us to get you an armed guard?

Meet 2 great friends of mine in La Mere Zou for Lunch- €20 for the best starter and main course you will get anywhere in Dublin(my first time there)….

Headed for D&Ns for a few pints and chatted with a few IRFU heads--- moved to another pub and met a real ‘player’ in this whole HC debate.

After my day’s meandering and having talked to a lot of sensible /hard nosed guys my reading of the scenario is as follows:

(1) French Clubs will soon abandon the PLR ‘new competition’ and agree to enter negotiations to improve their ‘take’ within the Heineken Cup.

(2) PLR will be isolated and will consider entering talks.

(3) PLR are told they are excluded from any discussions/ entry to a European competition until 2016

dtpc191991 · 03-10-2013 10:42PM

keps wrote: »

Leopold Bloom – eat your out.

Got off the Dart in Tara Street at 12.20pm.

Strolled up to AIB O Connell St to purchase 100 euros worth of Polish currency – sorry sir you have to order in advance.

Into BOI O Connell street- the earliest we could have them for you would be next Tuesday.

Into BOI College Green – yes we have a whopping 84 euros worth of Zlotys here – do you feel safe leaving the premises with that amount or would you like us to get you an armed guard as you leave?

Meet 2 great friends of mine in La Mere Zou for Lunch- €20 for 2 of the best starter and main course you will get anywhere in Dublin(my first time there)….

Headed for D&Ns for a few pints and chatted with a few IRFU heads--- moved to another pub and met a real ‘player’ in this whole HC debate.

After my day’s meandering and having talked to a lot of sensible /hard nosed guys my reading of the scenario is as follows:

(1) French Clubs will soon abandon the PLR ‘new competition’ and agree to enter negotiations to improve their ‘take’ within the Heineken Cup.

(2) PLR will be isolated and will consider entering talks.

(3) PLR are told they are excluded from any discussions/ entry to a European competition until 2016

That would be close the dream outcome but can you really trust the French to not change their stance again? =(

keps · 03-10-2013 10:49PM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

That would be close the dream outcome but can you really trust the French to not change their stance again? =(

I am relying on a source of information which is usually right or at least does not try to mislead- personally I think the exclusion of PLR from discussions may be a bit fanciful but I cannot stress enough the certainty this guy had about the French Clubs abandoning the 'new' competition and engaging again with ERC/

dtpc191991 · 03-10-2013 11:06PM

keps wrote: »

I am relying on a source of information which is usually right or at least does not try to mislead- personally I think the exclusion of PFL from discussions may be a bit fanciful but I cannot stress enough the certainty this guy had about the French Clubs abandoning the 'new' competition and engaging again with ERC/

Tbh I had a feeling LNR would come into line after the FFR hammered them, once the Celtic unions agreed to offer the concessions it was a done deal for the French. Despite their money and power LNR still nee FFR and by proxy the IRB

If the English continue refuse to join the talks there is very little else ERC can do but suspend them plus they will need to be repremanded if BT is illeagal. That said leaving them out till 2016 will hurt us a bit unless more T14 teams are brought in to cover the gap.

keps · 03-10-2013 11:13PM

This is just my read of the position after long discussions with guys who have vested interests in stating the ERC case

No doubt MMcC will have totally different view.

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 11:48PM

There is very little chance of LNR changing their position. For them, this is retribution for 2011.

thomond2006 · 03-10-2013 11:50PM

Mourad is 110% sure that this is the last Heineken Cup!

http://www.rctoulon.com/fr/recherche/?video_en_cours=879 (in French)

keps · 03-10-2013 11:58PM

Is 110% higher than 100%?

Sounds like Simon Cowell on XFactor saying

1000% YES

keps · 04-10-2013 12:03AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is very little chance of LNR changing their position. For them, this is retribution for 2011.

Time will tell.

Clearlier · 04-10-2013 01:02AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is very little chance of LNR changing their position. For them, this is retribution for 2011.

I wonder if you were to substitute Goze for LNR if this statement might be accurate.

Winters · 04-10-2013 07:19AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is very little chance of LNR changing their position. For them, this is retribution for 2011.

2011?

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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