Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

KenSwee

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18403809

Here we go again. What are these guys up too?

Can we afford to lose the English clubs?
Is the Hino bigger than the Premiership?
How big of an influence will Sky and Canal+ have?

The French clubs are also threatening to pull out apparently.
Every couple of years we see this, and it's getting boring. You never hear of football bodies pulling out of the Champions league.

fitz

KenSwee wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18403809

Here we go again. What are these guys up too?

Can we afford to lose the English clubs?
Is the Hino bigger than the Premiership?
How big of an influence will Sky and Canal+ have?

The French clubs are also threatening to pull out apparently.
Every couple of years we see this, and it's getting boring. You never hear of football bodies pulling out of the Champions league.

What will they say when they get their more favourable qualification criteria and then still end up getting beaten out the gate by Irish teams?

Talk about whining.
That's about as sour as grapes come.

thomond2006

Fishooks12

Wouldn't pay much head to it, clearly a bluff

The Premiership needs the HC as much as the HC needs the English teams

KenSwee

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Wouldn't pay much head to it, clearly a bluff

The Premiership needs the HC as much as the HC needs the English teams

Agreed, they need a good kicking, but is this the clubs handy work as well?

Cosmo Kramer

One English win in the last eight seasons isn't exactly a great starting point for them in their negotiations to get anything extra in their favour here.

Arrogant idiots.

Chucky the tree

I'm interested in seeing what ideas they have for re-formatting qualification at the moment. I certainly think it could do with being drastically changed, especially the joke shop that is qualification for Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams.

Tox56

I say let them do what they want, qualification changes won't affect Leinster and I want to see what they say when English clubs don't immediately improve, maybe they'll realise there is a little more to their lack of success than Rabo qualification.

thomond2006

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'm interested in seeing what ideas they have for re-formatting qualification at the moment. I certainly think it could do with being drastically changed, especially the joke shop that is qualification for Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams.

How about this, with 24 teams qualifying....

Top 7 from England qualify
Top 7 from France qualify
Top 8 from Rabo qualify (Rabo gets one more place because it represents more countries)

That makes 22 qualifications from league position and it's not too disimilar to the current system, the only drastic change is in the Rabo. It would benefit teams like Connacht in the Rabo who at the moment could finish 4th in the league and still not qualify if all the other Irish provinces are ahead of them. Extreme idea I know, but quite possible.

For the remaining 2, HEC winner and runner up qualifies for the next season. If they qualify themselves through the league anyway, then they earn another place for their respective league, the highest placed team not qualifying normally therefore qualify.

Tbh I don't like how Premiership Rugby has conducted themselves over this, they appear like whining bitches, but it is silly that the likes of Glasgow and Edinburgh qualify, however at the same time the point of the HEC has always been to have a good spread of countries.

Honestly making a Top 7/8/9 from the Rabo qualifying would make the Rabo far more interesting and competitive. The French and English leagues have relegation battles to keep the bottom sides interested, giving a Heineken Cup spot to fight for would make the Rabo much more interesting for the likes of Aironi Zebre and Dragons.

Teferi

A pictorial representation of the English RFU.

Chucky the tree

thomond2006 wrote: »

How about this, with 24 teams qualifying....

Top 7 from England qualify
Top 7 from France qualify
Top 8 from Rabo qualify (Rabo gets one more place because it represents more countries)

That makes 22 qualifications from league position and it's not too disimilar to the current system, the only drastic change is in the Rabo. It would benefit teams like Connacht in the Rabo who at the moment could finish 4th in the league and still not qualify if all the other Irish provinces are ahead of them. Extreme idea I know, but quite possible.

For the remaining 2, HEC winner and runner up qualifies for the next season. If they qualify themselves through the league anyway, then they earn another place for their respective league, the highest placed team not qualifying normally therefore qualify.

Tbh I don't like how Premiership Rugby has conducted themselves over this, they appear like whining bitches, but it is silly that the likes of Glasgow and Edinburgh qualify, however at the same time the point of the HEC has always been to have a good spread of countries.

Honestly making a Top 7/8/9 from the Rabo qualifying would make the Rabo far more interesting and competitive. The French and English leagues have relegation battles to keep the bottom sides interested, giving a Heineken Cup spot to fight for would make the Rabo much more interesting for the likes of Aironi Zebre and Dragons.

How about top 4 from each and don't make the competition worse then it already is?

Fishooks12

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How about top 4 from each and don't make the competition worse then it already is?

The competition is brilliant

Teferi

Yeah, that is a mad comment. It's my favourite rugby competition. Excitement in nearly every game.

The opening weekend of it was bloody fantastic after the dross of the World Cup.

Chucky the tree

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The competition is brilliant

Your definition of brilliant is a lot different to mine tbh.

Teferi

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Your definition of brilliant is a lot different to mine tbh.

Can you explain why you think it is bad?

Fishooks12

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Your definition of brilliant is a lot different to mine tbh.

What Teferi said

Across all sports it's my favorite in terms of quality, excitement and passion

The main reason I think it's so good is that every second of every game is hugely important, not let up

efb

England need to do a Wales, suck it up and go with regions

OldRio

So the bully boys are starting again.
Truly pathetic.

Tox56

The qualification process may be flawed but the actual competition is fantastic

JustinDee

Competition format is fine as it is. It isn't there to suit a private club or franchise owner. It is there to boost the development of the sport hence structure.

OldRio

Agreed fantastic competition.

Chucky the tree

Teferi wrote: »

Can you explain why you think it is bad?

I never said it was bad.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

What Teferi said

Across all sports it's my favorite in terms of quality, excitement and passion

The main reason I think it's so good is that every second of every game is hugely important, not let up

Every second of every game is important, steady on. Once a team loses they are nearly dead and buried and then you can get a lot of games where only one team has something to play for. The Italian teams pretty much provide nothing to the competition.

Tox56

The fact only twice has a team won the competition unbeaten(only once in current format) would suggest you aren't "dead and buried" after losing one game

Treviso were very good this year too

mfceiling

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Teferi wrote: »

Can you explain why you think it is bad?

I never said it was bad.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

What Teferi said

Across all sports it's my favorite in terms of quality, excitement and passion

The main reason I think it's so good is that every second of every game is hugely important, not let up

Every second of every game is important, steady on. Once a team loses they are nearly dead and buried and then you can get a lot of games where only one team has something to play for. The Italian teams pretty much provide nothing to the competition.

Ulster lost to Leicester and clermont this year but still made the final..

Chucky the tree

mfceiling wrote: »

Ulster lost to Leicester and clermont this year but still made the final..

And?

Fishooks12

Chucky the tree wrote: »

And?

It negates your point that once a team loses a game or two they are "dead and buried"

Chucky the tree

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It negates your point that once a team loses a game or two they are "dead and buried"

I never said a team who loses a game are dead and buried.

Fishooks12

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I never said a team who loses a game are dead and buried.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Once a team loses they are nearly dead and buried

?

Tox56

A team that loses a game clearly loses a game is hardly "nearly" dead and buried if you prefer, virtually every team that has won has lost at least once.

You are given fair chance to recover from a single loss while every game is still crucial if you wish to qualify, I think the HEC has it done perfectly

Chucky the tree

Fishooks12 wrote: »

?

Nearly.

Tox56 wrote: »

A team that loses a game clearly loses a game is hardly "nearly" dead and buried if you prefer, virtually every team that has won has lost at least once.

You are given fair chance to recover from a single loss while every game is still crucial if you wish to qualify, I think the HEC has it done perfectly

I wouldn't count losing a match in the last round when already qualified. This year only one team qualified who lost in the 1st round, only 2 in the second round.

splashthecash

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It negates your point that once a team loses a game or two they are "dead and buried"

I never said a team who loses a game are dead and buried.

You said nearly dead and buried .... Pretty close and I'd say this is what you meant

liammur

Right now the standard is very poor. English teams are probably just about able to beat connacht. French teams not much better. Something needs to be done, and I'm not talking about changing the qualification process, that's for sure.

.ak

Hahah, good one RFU!

Chucky the tree

splashthecash wrote: »

You said nearly dead and buried .... Pretty close and I'd say this is what you meant

If that is what I meant I would have said it.

.ak

liammur wrote: »

Right now the standard is very poor. English teams are probably just about able to beat connacht. French teams not much better. Something needs to be done, and I'm not talking about changing the qualification process, that's for sure.

That's nothing to do with the competition though, it's just that both nations are suffering a dip in performances. Let them clean up their own houses - all they want from this is an easier ride so that they can hop onboard the gravy boat as well.



Hmm, with that many cliches I could get a job in the Times.

profitius

They're bluffing and if not who cares. Everyone will lose out but in the long term the smaller nations will really lose out if they don't stand up to bullies.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Hahah, good one RFU!

RFU?

Mr Simpson

irishbucsfan wrote: »

RFU?

English Rugby Football Union?

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

Hahah, good one RFU!

RFU has nothing to do with this, Premier Rugby Ltd is the umbrella body for the Premiership clubs.

irishbucsfan

I'm happy that this should hopefully lead to the Celtic League committee looking into fixing the unfair advantage our teams have.

People saying they're sore losers annoys me quite a lot. I suppose it's an Irish site so what can you do. This has been a long time coming, it's certainly not reactive. It reminds me of Kiwi fans laughing off people's criticism of the ref in the RWC final. It's a genuine issue and deserves to be looked at.

Klunk_NZ

I would be willing to dispute the finer points of Joubert but it would be me on 100 northern hemisphere people so I'll pick my battles, I think it was a minor home advantage at most and took a more Lenient southern hemisphere approach to rucks which the French already knew heading into the 80.

Someone explain to me the system and how Ireland get an advantage. How many teams come from how many countries etc. I need to understand the system to judge whether England/France are being cry babies or have genuine concerns.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm happy that this should hopefully lead to the Celtic League committee looking into fixing the unfair advantage our teams have.

There are only 4 teams that have an unfair advantage.

Edinburgh
Glasgow
Treviso
Aironi / Zebre

The advantage exists so as to ensure the survival of the game within those teams. It didn't even work this season as Aironi succumbed to financial difficulties.

Leinster and Ulster and Munster would all be consistently challenging for top 8 rabo places.
As would Ospreys, Scarletts and Cardiff.
Regardless of how the qualification issues are settled. (This is the important bit)

All that the accord change would do would be to remove the first 4s direct entry, and see them split two qualification places between themselves, Dragons and Connacht. ( and possibly a 3rd space transiently between themselves and one of 2/3 of the "first tier" of teams within the league )

The proposal is a surefire way to put significant financial pressure on both Scottish and Italian Rugby. Two unions that need exactly the opposite.

Reeks of the kind of attitude that rugby has been busting balls to get rid of for the past 20 years.

fitz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm happy that this should hopefully lead to the Celtic League committee looking into fixing the unfair advantage our teams have.

People saying they're sore losers annoys me quite a lot. I suppose it's an Irish site so what can you do. This has been a long time coming, it's certainly not reactive. It reminds me of Kiwi fans laughing off people's criticism of the ref in the RWC final. It's a genuine issue and deserves to be looked at.

It may not be entirely fair (and I think you have previously proposed an alternative qualification criteria that I thought was a really great idea when I read it), but at the same time...that has little or nothing to do with them not performing in the HEC.

I don't buy the whole "Rabo teams can rest players" argument that you regularly hear. It's the English clubs job to build their squads to compete on two fronts. If there are salary cap issues, then they need to take that up with the RFU, rather than pointing the finger elsewhere.

As it stands, if the qualification changed, there might be more English clubs involved. I reckon that'd just result in more English clubs getting beaten.
They have bigger problems than the qualification issue.

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm happy that this should hopefully lead to the Celtic League committee looking into fixing the unfair advantage our teams have.

People saying they're sore losers annoys me quite a lot. I suppose it's an Irish site so what can you do. This has been a long time coming, it's certainly not reactive. It reminds me of Kiwi fans laughing off people's criticism of the ref in the RWC final. It's a genuine issue and deserves to be looked at.

They are sore losers and selfishly so, as this concern of theirs has absolutely NOTHING to do with the good of the game. They either ignore or forget completely the whole purpose of the comp.
All very ironic when you look at the efforts through the smokescreen of facilities requirements etc, being made to keep Newcastle in the top flight at the expense of London Welsh and/or Cornish Pirates.

The ERC will not change. It doesn't need to.

thomond2006

liammur wrote: »

Right now the standard is very poor. English teams are probably just about able to beat connacht. French teams not much better. Something needs to be done, and I'm not talking about changing the qualification process, that's for sure.

The English and French sides haven't had vintage seasons but that's really pushing it.

Tox56

I think that's just it, English teams have simply had a poor season, only in 2011 they were 40 mins away from winning the thing, Quins were a wet night in Galway away from the QF and who knows what could have happened.

Winters

Its going to be a rough ride till this gets sorted out. It's all about power.

Important to remember that the governorship of the ERC is split between the 6 nations countries equally with each union given 2 votes. The RFU and FFR gave away half of their allocation to their league organisations. I don't know what type of majority is required but effectively Peter Wheeler and René Bouscatel only have 2 votes out of 12 so their tactic is going to be threatening boycotts etc.

Edit, just realised that Wales gave their vote away too. Thats three club representations now.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/structure/index.php

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/165586.html

http://www.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php

sydthebeat

McCafferty added that he hopes discussions can commence soon regarding "the future of European cup rugby, including qualification, competition formats and ambition to expand into new markets".

what are they on about here??

have they actually come out and said that they view the qualification process as 'unfair' ? Its a bit silly threatening a boycott with being vociferous as to what the issues are.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

RFU has nothing to do with this, Premier Rugby Ltd is the umbrella body for the Premiership clubs.

Uhh, that's what I meant.

irishbucsfan

JustinDee wrote: »

They are sore losers and selfishly so, as this concern of theirs has absolutely NOTHING to do with the good of the game.

There's a poster on these forums who would be quick to point out that is YOUR opinion! :P

There is good to be gained for all parties from the proposals, and rather than just blindly stonewalling them we should be open to consider a compromise that will keep everyone happy and competitive.

JustinDee wrote: »

They either ignore or forget completely the whole purpose of the comp.

The purpose of the competition is to grow the profile of the sport. In every country in Europe. Equally as important in England as it is in Ireland, France Italy or Luxembourg.

Why should Premiership Rugby Ltd. or LNR continue to allow their brand be devalued by losses to teams like Connacht and Treviso who are targeting their teams thanks to their ability to completely disregard the competition that makes up the majority of their season?

JustinDee wrote: »

All very ironic when you look at the efforts through the smokescreen of facilities requirements etc, being made to keep Newcastle in the top flight at the expense of London Welsh and/or Cornish Pirates.

I think what's most ironic is that if someone came in spouting conspiracy theories about the IRFU, you'd be the first to laugh them off! :pac:

Is it really bizarre that a team who have completely changed their management structure in the past couple of months, completely reversed (repeatedly) their plans for a home ground and been completely inconsistent in their financial reportings failed the audit? I don't think so. However I must say I hope they do find some way to include LW as they are clearly making every effort and their playing squad are clearly good enough. Although I am a bit worried about them using the Kassam as it's so far away from their base, it's a shame they weren't allowed use the brentford stadium.

The ERC will not change. It doesn't need to.

I'd be very tempted to quote Sam Cooke at this!

.ak

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Someone explain to me the system and how Ireland get an advantage. How many teams come from how many countries etc. I need to understand the system to judge whether England/France are being cry babies or have genuine concerns.

The rough idea (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't really read into any of these reformating articles) is they're bemoaning the fact that a lot of the 'Celtic League' (Pro12) teams (Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy) qualify regardless of where they stand in the league and also don't have to worry about relegation from their league where as the English and the French do.

The issue I have with that is there are only about 4 teams in the Pro12 League that would need to battle it out to find a spot. Then the competition changes face completely - as it stands the comp is designed to have a fairly equal representative of each country, not as some people imagine it; the best of each country.

If we did it the way they want it would effect Scottish Rugby and Italian Rugby - it wouldn't effect Ireland, Wales, England or France. I don't see how that'll benefit anyone.


P.S: Joubert, Kaino, nuff said.