Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

03-10-2013 10:11AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, 100%. i think its very obvious they were. It's a shame the ERC made it impossible.

Don't even know how it's even slightly obvious?

PRL went away from ERC and negotiated a deal which hamstrung them.

How on earth were they meant to return?

'Hi ERC, here's the new deal we've signed. BT are great. I know that nobody else has voted on it, but you all gotta sign and we'll make loads of cash'

(Ignore the Sky deal, pretend it doesn't exist, and that PRL return to an ERC meeting)

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 10:14AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don't even know how it's even slightly obvious?

I'm afraid I'm not going to help you any further with it. Stop engaging in revisionism spurred on by current rhetoric and go back and look at what happened in the early meetings. Derek McGrath himself said it.

03-10-2013 10:14AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm afraid I'm not going to help you any further with it. Stop engaging in revisionism spurred on by current rhetoric and go back and look at what happened in the early meetings. Derek McGrath himself said it.

Again, stop reading spin and press releases.

Think.

Under what scenario could PRL possibly have returned and operated under the ERC?

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 10:17AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, stop reading spin and press releases.

Think.

Under what scenario could PRL possibly have returned and operated under the ERC?

Under the scenario where ERC didn't sell their rights without their permission after being told in advance not to. Probably.

And after that, in a scenario where ERC weren't intent on forcing that contract on to them.

Podge_irl · 03-10-2013 10:20AM

The Rooster wrote: »

"..and never will"
Interesting that you can see into the future, despite how quickly things change.

This doesn't and won't change quickly. The PRL aren't going to admit 4 new sides into their competition when it would mean multiple English clubs being relegated or the top league expanding (which they don't want). If the Welsh could just decide to up and leave and join the Premiership they would have done it a decade ago.

03-10-2013 10:22AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Under the scenario where ERC didn't sell their rights without their permission after being told in advance not to. Probably.

And after that, in a scenario where ERC weren't intent on forcing that contract on to them.

I've asked you to come up with a scenario before the ERC signed the Sky deal.

Deleted User wrote: »

...

'Hi ERC, here's the new deal we've signed. BT are great. I know that nobody else has voted on it, but you all gotta sign and we'll make loads of cash'

(Ignore the Sky deal, pretend it doesn't exist, and that PRL return to an ERC meeting)

You argue meritocracy and democracy, yet when a single member of the ERC forges (off board) and organises a deal externally and brings it back to the board that's acceptable?

keps · 03-10-2013 10:24AM

I wonder does Goze see Italy as part of the Celtic League- or is Italy excluded from his vision of any new tournament?

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 10:24AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

This doesn't and won't change quickly. The PRL aren't going to admit 4 new sides into their competition when it would mean multiple English clubs being relegated or the top league expanding (which they don't want). If the Welsh could just decide to up and leave and join the Premiership they would have done it a decade ago.

It would only happen if the Welsh would abandon the regions and return to their clubs imo. A section of Welsh fans would be delighted with the prospect.

Don't see how the regions would fit into the English structure currently.

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 10:30AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've asked you to come up with a scenario before the ERC signed the Sky deal.

You argue meritocracy and democracy, yet when a single member of the ERC forges (off board) and organises a deal externally and brings it back to the board that's acceptable?

And you have to show me where the BT deal is dependent on the other members of the board approving it. You haven't seen the deal and there was no agreement for them to be negotiating collectively.

It could have been turned down by the ERC leaving BT with just the English rights. Except of course the ERC decided to ignore the warnings and sign a deal with Sky. At least all the owners in PRL voted on the BT deal, ERC never presented the contract with Sky for a vote.

03-10-2013 10:33AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And you have to show me where the BT deal is dependent on the other members of the board approving it. You haven't seen the deal and there was no agreement for them to be negotiating collectively.

It could have been turned down by the ERC leaving BT with just the English rights. Except of course the ERC decided to ignore the warnings and sign a deal with Sky. At least all the owners in PRL voted on the BT deal, ERC never presented the contract with Sky for a vote.

As above, ignore the Sky deal. PRL return to ERC having signed the BT deal and present it to the board.

What happens next?

(Consider what we do know, which is that PRL cannot play in a competition that isn't broadcast by BT Sport - as quoted on the previous page)

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 10:39AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As above, ignore the Sky deal. PRL return to ERC having signed the BT deal and present it to the board.

What happens next?

(Consider what we do know, which is that PRL cannot play in a competition that isn't broadcast by BT Sport - as quoted on the previous page)

What happens next? The ERC spend the next 15 months with their fingers in their ears at meetings they only convene once in a blue moon hoping to wind the clock down and call the clubs' bluff, only to be very surprised when the clubs announce their new tournament. Exactly what happened. It wasn't caused by the two TV deals. It would have happened if everyone signed an agreement to sign no TV deals.

Its about Unions organising club competitions and the way money is distributed. Not about conflicting TV deals.

03-10-2013 10:42AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Its about Unions organising club competitions and the way money is distributed. Not about conflicting TV deals.

right

thomond2006 · 03-10-2013 10:47AM

Emmet, Irishbucs,

Want a 20 minute slot on our podcast? :pac:

.ak · 03-10-2013 11:20AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Emmet, Irishbucs,

Want a 20 minute slot on our podcast? :pac:

:eek:

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 03-10-2013 11:20AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Emmet, Irishbucs,

Want a 20 minute slot on our podcast? :pac:

That would be brilliant

Podge_irl · 03-10-2013 11:31AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It would only happen if the Welsh would abandon the regions and return to their clubs imo. A section of Welsh fans would be delighted with the prospect.

Don't see how the regions would fit into the English structure currently.

At which point they'd promptly find themselves down in the Championship. They could only compete as regions which would be a sticking point. But you'd also need the approval of most (all?) of the Premiership managers and there is a huge element of turkeys voting for Christmas there. Plus you have the argument over where the teams would enter - no way all 4 would go straight into the premiership.

Its a non-runner and not worth worrying about in the context of the new European cup.

Seph503 · 03-10-2013 11:34AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Emmet, Irishbucs,

Want a 20 minute slot on our podcast? :pac:

Would 20mins be enough?? Look at the length of this thread....:p

rrpc · 03-10-2013 11:35AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Under the scenario where ERC didn't sell their rights without their permission after being told in advance not to. Probably.

And after that, in a scenario where ERC weren't intent on forcing that contract on to them.

I think I pointed out the time line on this before, but it went something like this:
June 12th 2012, LNR and PRL say they are not going to be part of ERC competition when the current accord dies.
July 13th 2012, ERC board gives permission to negotiate a new deal with Sky. PRL and LNR reps are at this meeting and do not demur.
Sep 12th 2012, PRL announce new BT deal to include European competition
Sep 13th 2012, ERC announce new Sky deal.

Now if you take it that the PRL and LNR were out of the new contract agreement because they were avowedly not going to be in the competitions, the ERC were within their rights to negotiate a new Sky contract on the basis of the remaining participants. There was no comment on or around the July meeting from PRL or LNR about the rights the ERC had to negotiate a new contract with Sky.

03-10-2013 11:37AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Emmet, Irishbucs,

Want a 20 minute slot on our podcast? :pac:

I'm afraid I signed an exclusive contract with Second Captains.

I'm sure you'll all understand and wind down Talking Rugby and instead come join Second Captains. I've been authorised to offer you all a Junior Vice President (of the coffee machine) role?

rrpc · 03-10-2013 11:38AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's what I thought as well, but actually relegation provides a safeguard against the weakening of a section of the league and a means of entry in the case of new owners (Lorenzetti as an example).

But that's only in the interest of new owners, existing owners would not be in favour of dropping down a league.

Clearlier · 03-10-2013 11:50AM

Stop, stop, stop. Sport is not business as usual. The number of otherwise highly successful businessmen who have lost their shirts in sport (well football) despite vowing to run it as a business far exceed those who have made money. While everybody could theoretically make money, the reality is that everyone wants to win, not make money and their pursuit of that almost inevitably ends in a loss.

rrpc · 03-10-2013 12:12PM

Clearlier wrote: »

Stop, stop, stop. Sport is not business as usual. The number of otherwise highly successful businessmen who have lost their shirts in sport (well football) despite vowing to run it as a business far exceed those who have made money. While everybody could theoretically make money, the reality is that everyone wants to win, not make money and their pursuit of that almost inevitably ends in a loss.

I fully agree. Regardless of the historical record, business people continue to enter sport on the basis of making money and get very upset when it doesn't happen.

Some of this may be driving the current impasse.

bilston · 03-10-2013 12:48PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Emmet, Irishbucs,

Want a 20 minute slot on our podcast? :pac:

Cracking idea!

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 12:59PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Emmet, Irishbucs,

Want a 20 minute slot on our podcast? :pac:

I have no way of recording I don't think!

thomond2006 · 03-10-2013 01:02PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have no way of recording I don't think!

Ye talk, I record.

Winters · 03-10-2013 01:05PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's what I thought as well, but actually relegation provides a safeguard against the weakening of a section of the league and a means of entry in the case of new owners (Lorenzetti as an example).

I find this comment about relegation extremely disrespectful to the players and staff of the teams in the Pro12. Do you think Zebre or Connacht or Edinbugh or any team for that matter don't try as hard because they know their team can't be relegated? Bollox.

There is relegation in the Pro12 albeit in different forms. Aironi, Borders, Caledonian Reds, Celtic Warriors etc have all been relegated.

There is also promotion and relegation throughout the Pro12 in the form of the players themselves. The Pro12 contains the elite players from each union, it's a format that better suits the size and set up of the smaller nations.

I actually think relegation stifles rugby and the development of players.

Winters · 03-10-2013 01:08PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ye talk, I record.

A Future of European Rugby special?

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 01:13PM

Winters wrote: »

I find this comment about relegation extremely disrespectful to the players and staff of the teams in the Pro12. Do you think Zebre or Connacht or Edinbugh or any team for that matter don't try as hard because they know their team can't be relegated? Bollox.

There is relegation in the Pro12 albeit in different forms. Aironi, Borders, Caledonian Reds, Celtic Warriors etc have all been relegated.

There is also promotion and relegation throughout the Pro12 in the form of the players themselves. The Pro12 contains the elite players from each union, it's a format that better suits the size and set up of the smaller nations.

I actually think relegation stifles rugby and the development of players.

Dunno where this has come out of?

I never said anything about relegation in the Pro 12.

Howard Juneau · 03-10-2013 01:29PM

A duel to the death!

The Rooster · 03-10-2013 02:58PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

At which point they'd promptly find themselves down in the Championship. They could only compete as regions which would be a sticking point. But you'd also need the approval of most (all?) of the Premiership managers and there is a huge element of turkeys voting for Christmas there. Plus you have the argument over where the teams would enter - no way all 4 would go straight into the premiership.

Its a non-runner and not worth worrying about in the context of the new European cup.

Nobody said it was likely, I was refuting you saying it could never happen.

The way it could happen, IMO, is if the impasse continues, and the English clubs get desperate in their attemps to secure the full BT monies, because the Celts refuse to play in their competition.

I don't think its beyond the bounds of possibility for the PRL to make an offer to the 4 Welsh regions. Join our Cup competition now and we'll allow you into our league later (subject to giving the requisite notice etc.)

2 to go into the Premiership, 2 to go into the Championship, increasing the premiership to 14 teams. It wouldnt be ideal from an English point of view, but each club would get more money out of it, and it would pretty much guarantee the other Celts would have no choice but to join the cup competition, thus more money again for the PRL clubs.

Its a potential card up the sleeve of the PRL that undoubtedly they would prefer not to play, so nobody could say its likely to happen, and as I said it would probably be the very worst possible outcome from an Irish viewpoint. But I think it would be foolish to regard it as impossible.

Just like it would be foolish to put all our chickens in the basket of:
The RFU will never allow the new European competition
The IRB will never allow the new European competition

At the end of day, its professional sport, and money talks

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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