Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

irishbucsfan · 02-10-2013 02:24PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Any future competition will have 4 Unions involved either way because the provinces/regions/franchises/clubs of the Pro12 have no equivalent to the PRL and the LNR. So the majority of the parties at the table (4 of the 6) will be Unions.

Yes, they do.

But either way, it doesn't matter who is at the table. It just matters what control they have. It wouldn't matter if it was the tooth fairly, the boogeyman and Santa Claus, so long as the participants are all represented equally.

irishbucsfan · 02-10-2013 02:27PM

who_me wrote: »

Really? I was under the impression most UK fans would be behind the English clubs. Which sites/blogs were you looking at?

Most are behind the clubs from my experiences and from reading other forums. But there may be covens of Probynites scattered across the nation who emerge whenever they get a chance like Morris Dancers.

Dub. · 02-10-2013 02:30PM

So what happens if the Italians leave the Rabo to set up their own league ?

Will they get a quarter share in this new competition?

Cookiemunster · 02-10-2013 02:32PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most are behind the clubs from my experiences and from reading other forums. But there may be covens of Probynites scattered across the nation who emerge whenever they get a chance like Morris Dancers.

Maybe the supporters of the 12 PRL clubs are behind them, but there are a lot more than 12 clubs in England.

irishbucsfan · 02-10-2013 02:40PM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Maybe the supporters of the 12 PRL clubs are behind them, but there are a lot more than 12 clubs in England.

I know, I play for one

irishbucsfan · 02-10-2013 02:42PM

Dub. wrote: »

So what happens if the Italians leave the Rabo to set up their own league ?

Will they get a quarter share in this new competition?

They have their own league, the Super 10.

If they give notice to leave the Rabo, which would take 2/3 years I believe, then I'm sure the organisers can work something out for them. 1st place in the top tier, 2nd in the second tier, 4 more in the 3rd tier perhaps. Not sure, but there'd be plenty of time to work it out.

who_me · 02-10-2013 02:46PM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Maybe the supporters of the 12 PRL clubs are behind them, but there are a lot more than 12 clubs in England.

I wonder how long promotion and relegation to/from the Premiership will remain feasible. How many of the Championship teams can afford to make the step up? You'd think the bigger the divide between Championship and Premiership teams, the less they'd have invested in the HEC or new competition. They might even be antagonistic towards (potentially) 12 ring-fenced Premiership sides.

irishbucsfan · 02-10-2013 02:51PM

who_me wrote: »

I wonder how long promotion and relegation to/from the Premiership will remain feasible. How many of the Championship teams can afford to make the step up? You'd think the bigger the divide between Championship and Premiership teams, the less they'd have invested in the HEC or new competition. They might even be antagonistic towards (potentially) 12 ring-fenced Premiership sides.

May be more likely that PRL take over the Championship and end the RFU's systems and make promotion easier, I'm not sure, but that's the way it's done in France.

So long as the teams are privately owned I can't see them removing relegation.

The Rooster · 02-10-2013 03:33PM

Dub. wrote: »

So what happens if the Italians leave the Rabo to set up their own league ?

Will they get a quarter share in this new competition?

Or what happens if the Welsh jump ship and join the PRL (after serving their notice period) ??

The worst of all outcomes from an Irish POV, hopefully very unlikely, but I wouldnt put it past the Welsh

Phonehead · 02-10-2013 04:04PM

I don't care what anyone says, this is more than just a battle for a new competition! essentially we have a battle over the control of Rugby Union. On one side you have the business men who have decided to invest into a game controlled and governed by the IRB. We are now at a point that (rightfully in some people's eyes IBF for one) these business men are saying "hey we are paying the wages, we are taking all the risks we are the ones who took up the reigns when you turned the game over to professionalism - now we want to rightfully run the club game and you guys can have your international teams to organize"

This is the real big picture thing here, esentially the IRB can roll over but it will mean that the Club owners run the game in the Northern Hemisphere. The international scene will become secondary because let's be honest, both the French and English club owners have no love of losing their players to the international teams. You can argue that players won't allow it but as we all know...you do what your boss wants at the end of the day. Maybe the natural evolution of Rugby Union is that the Club scene does become more important than the international.

keps · 02-10-2013 04:45PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So long as the teams are privately owned I can't see them removing relegation.

The NFL teams in the states are privately owned-and the owners would not countenance relagation.

rrpc · 02-10-2013 04:51PM

keps wrote: »

The NFL teams in the states are privately owned-and the owners would not countenance relagation.

I suspect a straw poll of owners in the AP would show that they would not want relegation either.

The championship team owners might have a different view.

rrpc · 02-10-2013 04:54PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most are behind the clubs from my experiences and from reading other forums. But there may be covens of Probynites scattered across the nation who emerge whenever they get a chance like Morris Dancers.

There's an inherent oxymoron floating around behind statements about clubs whilst talking about privately owned franchises.

They are actually mutually exclusive, they are either clubs or privately owned enterprises since the word club denotes an organisation owned and run by its members and can't be stretched to encompass businesses owned and run by individuals.

Phonehead · 02-10-2013 04:55PM

keps wrote: »

The NFL teams in the states are privately owned-and the owners would not countenance relagation.

And I can't see how the Welsh regions could survive outside of the WRU, they hardly have captured the imaginations of the Welsh people who still support their National team and local teams over these regions. The Welsh regions breaking from the Pro12 is a not a runner at all.

rrpc · 02-10-2013 05:04PM

Phonehead wrote: »

And I can't see how the Welsh regions could survive outside of the WRU, they hardly have captured the imaginations of the Welsh people who still support their National team and local teams over these regions. The Welsh regions breaking from the Pro12 is a not a runner at all.

This whole clubs v unions argument always surfaces when sports start to take off financially and 'investors' start taking an interest.

The problem is that investors can always walk away, but the unions have to stay behind to pick up the pieces.

irishbucsfan · 02-10-2013 06:13PM

rrpc wrote: »

I suspect a straw poll of owners in the AP would show that they would not want relegation either.

The championship team owners might have a different view.

Nope, I think you'll find relegation is something they're in favour of and is used to protect their interests.

LeinsterDub · 02-10-2013 06:19PM

rrpc wrote: »

This whole clubs v unions argument always surfaces when sports start to take off financially and 'investors' start taking an interest.

The problem is that investors can always walk away, but the unions have to stay behind to pick up the pieces.

Whats the picture about ? Wiki suggests the club moved to a new ground?

Cookiemunster · 02-10-2013 06:24PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Whats the picture about ? Wiki suggests the club moved to a new ground?

They were bought by a rich business man with delusions of grandeur. He built a new 25000 cap ground, but the cap was limited to 10000 due to lack of access. The still only got around 2000 through the gates though. He couldn't pay the bills and after a few administrations they went bust last year and had to start again at the lowest level of non league.

.ak · 02-10-2013 06:33PM

Aw. I was hoping it was a zombie rugby club.

Podge_irl · 02-10-2013 06:40PM

The Rooster wrote: »

Or what happens if the Welsh jump ship and join the PRL (after serving their notice period) ??

The worst of all outcomes from an Irish POV, hopefully very unlikely, but I wouldnt put it past the Welsh

The welsh spent years trying to join the English. PRL don't want them and never will.

LeinsterDub · 02-10-2013 06:44PM

.ak wrote: »

Aw. I was hoping it was a zombie rugby club.

These lads own the ground now apperently
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_Mowden_Park_R.F.C.

edit the good ground not the crap one

rrpc · 03-10-2013 07:01AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nope, I think you'll find relegation is something they're in favour of and is used to protect their interests.

The goal of any business is to corner the market and become a monopoly. Relegation is anathema to that goal.

The Rooster · 03-10-2013 08:38AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

The welsh spent years trying to join the English. PRL don't want them and never will.

"..and never will"
Interesting that you can see into the future, despite how quickly things change.

Are you also in the camp that thinks:
RFU will never approve the Champions Cup
FFR will never approve the Champions Cup
IRB will never approve the Champions Cup

And that we can all just sit back, relax and wait until the English and French come crawling back?

I can't predict the future, but my view is that the PRL are in this for the hard fight, and who knows what they'll try next. They have absolutely no intention of taking part in an ERC run European Cup.

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 09:33AM

rrpc wrote: »

The goal of any business is to corner the market and become a monopoly. Relegation is anathema to that goal.

That's what I thought as well, but actually relegation provides a safeguard against the weakening of a section of the league and a means of entry in the case of new owners (Lorenzetti as an example).

So as I said, I can't see them getting rid of it. Much more likely they take control of it from the RFU, which I think would be something everyone involved would like to happen eventually.

keps · 03-10-2013 09:56AM

today's L'Equipe

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Goze-se-montre-ferme/405975

bilston · 03-10-2013 10:03AM

Thinking about promotion and relegation and how it could ever work in the Pro 12 I wonder if in the future we could create a second tier by doing the following...

Reduce the top division to 10 sides, introduce A teams (they do this is Spanish football) and bring in another couple of Italian sides and hey presto we could have a second tier. You'd probably have to make it that the A teams couldn't be promoted though but maybe down the line this is something that could work?

Based on last season bottom 2 being Zebre and I think Edinburgh you could have a second tier with the following teams

Edinburgh
Zebre
Munster A
Leinster A
Ulster Ravens
Scottish Development side
Welsh A team
Welsh A team
Italian Team
Italian Team
Italian Team

We could maybe even throw in a Romanian or Spanish side and if the Celtic Unions ever got together maybe they could create a combined side based in London, call them the Celtic Lions, the ex pat support from the Irish, Scots and Welsh would certainly be there, of course the RFU, PRL, London Irish, London Welsh and London Scottish mightn't be so keen!

03-10-2013 10:04AM

keps wrote: »

today's L'Equipe

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Goze-se-montre-ferme/405975

Google Translate from Gotze wrote:

Except that the English can not participate in a European competition that is not broadcast by British Telecom

ibf, still think that PRL were willing to work with ERC?

channelsurfer2 · 03-10-2013 10:05AM

keps wrote: »

today's L'Equipe

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Goze-se-montre-ferme/405975

In our columns, Thursday, Paul Goze, president of the National League, told that "French clubs will not play the European Cup next year (2014-2015), I can guarantee 100%" . Instead, they would in Rugby Champions Cup, alongside English teams and the Celtic League. . "

(only some of the article quoted due to not being allow cut and paste full articles)

"In a meeting where there were chairs teams Top 14 and Pro D2, Mourad Boudjellal, the president of Toulon, said "I can assure you that the European Cup is dead."

03-10-2013 10:07AM

bilston wrote: »

Thinking about promotion and relegation and how it could ever work in the Pro 12 I wonder if in the future we could create a second tier by doing the following...

Reduce the top division to 10 sides, introduce A teams (they do this is Spanish football) and bring in another couple of Italian sides and hey presto we could have a second tier. You'd probably have to make it that the A teams couldn't be promoted though but maybe down the line this is something that could work?

Based on last season bottom 2 being Zebre and I think Edinburgh you could have a second tier with the following teams

Edinburgh
Zebre
Munster A
Leinster A
Ulster Ravens
Scottish Development side
Welsh A team
Welsh A team
Italian Team
Italian Team
Italian Team

We could maybe even throw in a Romanian or Spanish side and if the Celtic Unions ever got together maybe they could create a combined side based in London, call them the Celtic Lions, the ex pat support from the Irish, Scots and Welsh would certainly be there, of course the RFU, PRL, London Irish, London Welsh and London Scottish mightn't be so keen!

This is actually a good shout, it's more for the Unions to discuss outside of the ERC though, as it has nothing to do with the Cups (yet). (Scottish Clubs side could be a great shout for that kind of level - where does the money come from though?)

Need some stringent enough stipulations though (things like not able to appear for your A Team and your 'First' Team more than X times in the one season) for it to work.

One of the big issues is that the B&I Cup would have a host of teams around this level that could take part, but you're stepping on RFU/PRL's toes there, and I imagine that the B&I Cup setup wouldn't be too happy with Leinster A etc not being available as readily because they have League games.

irishbucsfan · 03-10-2013 10:10AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ibf, still think that PRL were willing to work with ERC?

Yes, 100%. i think its very obvious they were. It's a shame the ERC made it impossible.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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