Travellers leave dead horse beside main road after Sulky race crash.

_Kaiser_ · 02-10-2013 12:44PM

There's a video on the Daily Mail story of a/the? race which shows a single squad car trying to deal with it - totally unsuccessfully I might add!

If certain elements of the Traveller community will so blatantly ignore "the law" as it's literally in front of them, does anyone really think more legislation, rules or whatever are going to make any difference?

Ban this "sport" outright and jail anyone involved - playing the racism card or "culture" shouldn't even be entertained.

It's amazing how far we (as in the rest of us) have fallen as a society that stuff like this is even worth a debate.

Hedgemeister · 02-10-2013 12:44PM

josip wrote: »

Getting my post in before, well you know...

Was the car parked in off the road? It looked like it from the picture. You'd want to be a pretty poor sulky driver to hit it there.

Maybe they playing Polo?

RGDATA! · 02-10-2013 12:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the few real irks of modern day society is that we cant call a spade a spade any more. Being part of an ethnic group should not excuse cruelty to animals in any way shape or form

Who is using this as an excuse for animal cruelty? Absolutely nobody that I can see. So why the whine about not being able to call a spade a spade? There is no excuse for animal cruelty, nor for racism and generalising about an ethnic group based on the actions of a few.

Femme_Fatale · 02-10-2013 12:46PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Really?
do explain.

I think you know the answer to that one. In fact I'm sure you do.

RGDATA! wrote: »

Who is using this as an excuse for animal cruelty? Absolutely nobody that I can see. So why the whine about not being able to call a spade a spade? There is no excuse for animal cruelty, nor for racism and generalising about an ethnic group based on the actions of a few.

It's disingenuous to pretend that the many serious problems within traveller culture, which sometimes spill over to outside traveller culture, are "few".

Lots of great traveller individuals, but the broad issues exist, and it's not helpful to deny this.

Mr McBoatface · 02-10-2013 12:48PM

Any member of any ethnic minority who's lifestyle is not compatible with the rules of the society they live in should not have access to the benefits of that society.If their culture/lifestyle excludes an individual from working a 9-5 job (and they opt to work in the black market) the individual concerned should not have access to for example job-seekers allowance which has a requirement the person receiving the payment is doing their best to find employment.

If the traditions of any minority ethnic/culture puts mainstream civil and law abiding citizens in harms way then that tradition should be stopped with the full force of the law.

Another thing not related to any culture but to people in general, if you can't afford to have children you shouldn't have them. The monthly state children allowance payments should be capped at two kids.

ted1 · 02-10-2013 12:50PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

In what way are travellers a race?

there protected under the Equal Status Act, 2000

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_authority.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0003.html#sec3

anncoates · 02-10-2013 12:54PM

ted1 wrote: »

there protected under the Equal Status Act, 2000

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_authority.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0003.html#sec3

Like Ulster Scots, eh. :pac:

It's hardly Rosa Parks or Nelson Mandela stuff is it?

Muise... · 02-10-2013 12:57PM

anncoates wrote: »

Like Ulster Scots, eh. :pac:

It's hardly Rosa Parks or Nelson Mandela stuff is it?

Ah, Ulster Scots... the Monty Python Department of Silly Talks.

BeerWolf · 02-10-2013 12:57PM

ted1 wrote: »

there protected under the Equal Status Act, 2000

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_authority.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0003.html#sec3

What's the bets they paid their way to have it set as such? :rolleyes:

ronan45 · 02-10-2013 12:58PM

<GRABS POPCORN> :cool:

RGDATA! · 02-10-2013 12:59PM

anncoates wrote: »

Like Ulster Scots, eh. :pac:

It's hardly Rosa Parks or Nelson Mandela stuff is it?

Seeing as you mention Mandela, worth remembering how we as a nation reacted against apartheid in the 80's, yet now half the country doesn't blink when a councillor in Donegal suggests that travellers should live segragated from the rest of us.

anncoates · 02-10-2013 01:03PM

RGDATA! wrote: »

Seeing as you mention Mandela, worth remembering how we as a nation reacted against apartheid in the 80's, yet now half the country doesn't blink when a councillor in Donegal suggests that travellers should live segragated from the rest of us.

Because criticizing aspects of traveller 'culture' obviously means somebody is automatically cheek by jowl with every bigot in Fianna Fail.

rubadub · 02-10-2013 01:04PM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I don't know how an activity that came out of nowhere 15-20 years ago counts as 'tradition'.

Filibuster wrote: »

It's their culture

Ghost Buster wrote: »

In what way are travellers a race

I wonder this too, do you need a certain time frame, or have a tick box of differences? minimum of 5 differences. Junkies have a tradition of leaving syringes around which is older than this 15-20 year tradition, could they group together and class themselves as a race and claim exemption for things they want to get up to, which is known as their culture, like smoking on buses or loitering.

Its similar to the niquab (face covering) being allowed in courts, people demanding that respect be paid to religions, and exceptions to be made. If one of those census jedi knight scams worked where jedi was an officially recognized religion would they show the same respect. Or do you need several generations believing in these gods.

Filibuster · 02-10-2013 01:05PM

RGDATA! wrote: »

Seeing as you mention Mandela, worth remembering how we as a nation reacted against apartheid in the 80's, yet now half the country doesn't blink when a councillor in Donegal suggests that travellers should live segragated from the rest of us.

Travellers are not a separate race. The country is not oppressing them, they just abuse the social pillars of the state.

seamus · 02-10-2013 01:06PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Ban this "sport" outright and jail anyone involved

How do you ban sulky racing without outlawing all forms of horse-based transportation? Ban the carriage design, they just change it.

RGDATA! wrote: »

Seeing as you mention Mandela, worth remembering how we as a nation reacted against apartheid in the 80's, yet now half the country doesn't blink when a councillor in Donegal suggests that travellers should live segragated from the rest of us.

Strawman. Apartheid was the state-sponsored active oppression and segregation of a huge part of the country's population based solely on race.
How does that compare to a rambling proposal about segregating a minority subgroup, from some powerless nobody that most people never heard? This is certainly the first I've heard of this suggestion.

Davidth88 · 02-10-2013 01:13PM

seamus wrote: »

How do you ban sulky racing without outlawing all forms of horse-based transportation? Ban the carriage design, they just change it.

If caught on the road by AGS , they should be stopped , insurance checked , if none then impound/crush the sulky and remove horse , if horse is not chipped / does not have the right documentation it should be removed from them.

But that's a silly idea , lets keep checking people for speeding on dual carrageways , or checking for motor tax .............

You can't fine these people because they just disappear ( same name as everyone else on the site , or they just move for a while ).

Cavehill Red · 02-10-2013 01:14PM

What sort of subhuman mentality puts lives at risk on public roads for sport, gallops a living creature straight into the back of a parked car, leaves it to die by the side of the road, and fecks off having destroyed someone else's property?

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 02-10-2013 01:15PM

Davidth88 wrote: »

If caught on the road by AGS , they should be stopped , insurance checked , if none then impound/crush the sulky and remove horse , if horse is not chipped / does not have the right documentation it should be removed from them.

But that's a silly idea , lets keep checking people for speeding on dual carrageways , or checking for motor tax .............

You can't fine these people because they just disappear ( same name as everyone else on the site , or they just move for a while ).

Since when was insurance a requirement for a horse drawn carriage?
Rest of that post is utter rubbish since many of "these people" have appeared in court, including as a result of sulky racing.

Wibbs · 02-10-2013 01:16PM

It's ethnicity we're talking about here not "race"*. Traditions, cultural differences to the main population, self identification, that sort of thing.

The problem with debate on this topic is very quickly it descends into taking very opposing sides, which IMHO is a pity, because any truth or god forbid long term solutions that would benefit all communities get lost in the noise.

It also means that Travelers tend more and more to back away from a wider society that disowns them, increasing the likelihood of the more extreme/dodgy aspects of the culture being magnified. Rinse and repeat and it does nobody any good, least of all the Travelers who aren't engaging in antisocial or stereotypical type behaviors. Even in my own lifetime I've certainly seen a hardening of mistrust on both sides.

*Race is a near impossible thing to pin down anyway, groups of populations is an easier, but more complex description, hence the simplicity of race appeals. There was an attempt to suggest that Travelers were genetically distinct from the general population, but IMH it was a bit of a stretch. Yes they had some distinctions, but you would expect that given they rarely marry outside the culture and the number of families involved is small. You'd find similar distinct populations in smaller villages around Ireland too.

RGDATA! · 02-10-2013 01:16PM

anncoates wrote: »

Because criticizing aspects of traveller 'culture' obviously means somebody is automatically cheek by jowl with every bigot in Fianna Fail.

Not at all. I'd be critical of aspects of traveller culture, certainly no defence for anyone who treats an animal like that, but in fairness people criticising aspects of traveller culture is not what you tend to see here so much as broad strokes.

seamus · 02-10-2013 01:17PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Travellers don't portray themselves as a separate "race", rather a separate ethnicity. An ethnicity is a people with shared history, language, heritage, customs and an identity which they view as distinct from others. For instance Russians in Latvia may be Latvian citizens, and also white Europeans, but also a different ethnicity.

Ethnicity is a bizarre concept. It's a set of arbitrary lines which is used to pigeonhole people, but which people also use to pigeonhole themselves.

Critically, ethnicity is based entirely on acquired traits which members of that ethnic subgroup (and those who recognise it) choose arbitrarily in order to rule others in or out of that group.
That is, everything which makes an ethnic group is something learned, it's not inherited through birth, unlike race. Take a child from Muslim parents and raise him in Fettercairn. Is he ethnically Muslim? Of course not.

Is it wrong to discriminate against people based on ethnicity? Well, of course. Such discrimination is exactly what happened in the north. If this was the 70s I would probably still be treated as a catholic in the north, even though I'm not. It's inventing reasons to discriminate against people, which we need less of.
But equally, it could be said that identifying yourself as a member of a specific ethnicity and expecting to be treated or avail of special protections, is in itself being bigoted and discriminatory. You're inventing reasons why you're different and require special attention.
And that too is wrong. We need less discrimination, less banging on about being different and special.

Artful_Badger · 02-10-2013 01:18PM

seamus wrote: »

How do you ban sulky racing without outlawing all forms of horse-based transportation? Ban the carriage design, they just change it.

People shouldn't be using horse based transportation at all imo. Certainly not on main roads.

Pedro K · 02-10-2013 01:20PM

The video in that link is the same one that crept up a year or so ago right? And the daily mail are saying an eyewitness caught it just the other day...

Travellers are forever showing blatant disregard for the law. Now the car owner is heavy out of pocket and the traveller has gotten off the hook.

Disgusting.

meoklmrk91 · 02-10-2013 01:20PM

As far as I am concerned this is not a traveller issue, yes the vast majority of those who participate in these races are travellers but it is not part of their culture, sulky racing is a relatively new phenomenon so if its not part of traveller culture then it is not a traveller issue. Therefore those involved cannnot and should not be allowed to cry racism. It is a criminal issue.

It's a barbaric practice and this story just shows how much regard and compassion these people have for their animals. Horses should not be run in this manner on Tarmac, it can cause them serious injuries to horses. Anyone who knows anything or cares about horses would never treat their animals in this way.

They are a danger to other road users and pedestrians, they should not be on the road full stop. They have no business being there.

Anti-roll bars and high vis jackets? Get them off the road, they are a danger and the fact that I have seen children who could be no more than four or five navigating horses and sulkys on public round abouts shows that they have no regard for anyone's safety. They should be done for child endangerment, animal cruelty, public endangerment etc. There should be no leeway given, they are committing crimes with regard for no one but themselves its the animals and the public that are and will suffer.

A poor horse left on the side of the road to die a cruel, painful death when they were no longer of use to them, a car owner who will be left with a hefty bill for that car because it is wreaked and the perps get away scot free.

Davidth88 · 02-10-2013 01:21PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Since when was insurance a requirement for a horse drawn carriage?
Rest of that post is utter rubbish since many of "these people" have appeared in court, including as a result of sulky racing.

Insurance ... it should be IMO , same with push bikes TBH

I stand corrected

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0208/366875-five-men-jailed-after-horse-race-on-main-road/

Should the horses not be chipped have paperwork etc ?

Uriel. · 02-10-2013 01:22PM

The question has to be asked as to when, as a society, as a State we will deal with the problems within the Travelling Community, sure not all travellers are "bad", but there are broad deep seeded problems within that particular community.

We, in terms of legislation, in terms of societal (at least in our structures), pussy foot around the issue. I don't believe that a minority of the travelling community are problematic, I would hazard that, if not quite the majority, then at least a large proportion are problematic (or a larger proportion than is let on).

It was mentioned earlier in the thread about pubs closing down, refusing to take traveller weddings/funerals etc... Why is that? why is a community, albeit small, met with such resistance. "Racism"/Biogtry? I don't believe so (although I would say there is also an element of that), there is no smoke without fire. Stereotypes exist, not due to a minority but due to a greater prevalence of common features. They tend to get away with a lot, that most ordinary citizens don't get away with.

Society wide, through legislation and policy have offered "olive branches" to the travelling community, an opportunity to shake off the old stereotypes, but the reality is quite that a large amount of that community have not "come half way" and certainly don't help themselves (or the image of the remainder of their community).

I am afraid I personally don't see enough from the travelling community or its representatives to effectively and efficiently deal with the broad problems within it and see far too much hiding behind "minority status".

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 02-10-2013 01:23PM

Davidth88 wrote: »

Insurance ... it should be IMO , same with push bikes TBH
Should the horses not be chipped have paperwork etc ?

Totally agree with that, absolutely.

seamus · 02-10-2013 01:24PM

Davidth88 wrote: »

If caught on the road by AGS , they should be stopped , insurance checked , if none then impound/crush the sulky and remove horse , if horse is not chipped / does not have the right documentation it should be removed from them.

No disagreement, but do you need insurance to drive a horse? I don't think so.

Plus, this is subtly different to vehicles in that vehicles require someone to manufacture them and come with all sorts of documentation. The same is not true of horses and there's a large trade between travellers and non-travellers in horses which will never appear on any database, but will appear in a public field in an urban housing estate.

Like I say above, there's practically zero enforcement of animal welfare of any kind in this country, and until that's corrected you will never be able to stop people having an undocumented horse.

wexie · 02-10-2013 01:24PM

seamus wrote: »

How do you ban sulky racing without outlawing all forms of horse-based transportation? Ban the carriage design, they just change it.

I'd imagine sulkys would be hard to ban alright.

But isn't racing (of any description and in any vehicle) already banned on public roads? (without the correct permits, road closures, garda oversight, insurance, yada yada yada)

anncoates · 02-10-2013 01:24PM

RGDATA! wrote: »

Not at all. I'd be critical of aspects of traveller culture, certainly no defence for anyone who treats an animal like that, but in fairness people criticising aspects of traveller culture is not what you tend to see here so much as broad strokes.

Seamus said it far better than I could.

I'm not making blanket assumptions about individual travellers or even disagreeing that certain traditions (as long as they don't contravene what we all acknowledge to be societally acceptable ) within the community should not be afforded recognition, merely that no culture should ever absolve members of responsibility to wider societal norms and that the sight of liberals (as in they are liberals, not that being liberal is in itself wrong) falling over themselves with racism epithets is ridiculous.

Travellers leave dead horse beside main road after Sulky race crash.

Comments