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Cattle on land, no rent paid

  • 01-10-2013 8:36pm
    #1
    gingerfarmer
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭


    Hi everybody,

    I have done some research on this but have come up with nothing. My father passed away about six months ago due to an long term illness, before this he was a full time farmer. When he first became ill he gave up the farm and let one of his friends use the the land rent free because of the hard winter to rear his cattle. When my father passed he began to move more cattle on to the land than the agreed amount that my father and he came too. We have told him to remove his cattle so that we could rent the land to someone else but he refuses to remove them. We also offered to rent it to him but he just walked away laughing. He feels he has an entitlement to the land as my family aren't going to use it i.e neither of me or two sisters are farmers, he has done some odd jobs on the farm like my father did on his farm. Does anybody happen to know what i can do?????

    Thank you
    Tagged:


«13

Comments

  • #2
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Talk to a solicitor.
    He just needs putting in his place.
    Keep face to face contact to a minimum as he's obvious unreasonable.


  • #3
    Welruc
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Welruc


    Open the gate and send the cattle on their way, let yer man know so he can take them from there.

    Some cheek of him


  • #4
    Manoffeeling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Manoffeeling


    A land grabbing bastard. Contact solicitor and department. If he has cattle on land that is not on his maps, then he maybe up a stick.


    Best of luck.


  • #5
    jersey101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭jersey101


    Some friend he was to your father. Get a solicitor to send him a letter. That might make him wet his knickers and move off if not the take it further


  • #6
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    report him to the guards if all else fails the cheeky b*****d


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  • #7
    iverjohnston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭iverjohnston


    Talk to a local Guard about the situation. Tell the Guard that you are getting the cattle moved to the pound , and that you are just letting the Gardai know the score in case the owner of the animals should turn violent or commit a breach of the peace. The Guard may have a word with the owner to set him straight and to avoid any such occurrence . But you Will have to carry out your threat, to show him you are no pushover.


  • #8
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    iverjohnston wrote: »
    But you Will have to carry out your threat, to show him you are no pushover.
    Def agree with this otherwise you will have bother from him in the future. is he a neighbour of the land by any chance


  • #9
    pk82
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭pk82


    People never cease to amaze.

    I doubt if AGS (Gaurds) will do anything - unless you know one (?)

    I believe trespass is a civil matter unless he is trespassing with intent to commit an offence, which is unlikely.

    Thus being a civil matter you can sue him for the loss of rent you would get if the field were available to rent.

    Also be careful here as to whose name the land is registered to. That person can only start proceedings. In the event of the owner being deceased it may be the exectors or administrators of the estate who have authority to start proceedings.

    Consult a good solicitor - perhaps the threat of being sued for rent will be enough to make him move on

    He will also advise as to how to eject him from land.

    Most of these types are chancers and soon buckle if you stand up to them


  • #10
    bob charles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    be very slow on interfering or moving the animals as you would be interfering with his property. You could get into allot more trouble than you think. Department of Ag wont want to know about the case as it a civil matter. I would give him verbal notice that if animals arent removed by a point in time you will then get a solicitor to serve him notice and take matters from there. There is a local farm 2 miles from me where there is 3 years rent due and owners of the land are finding it very difficult to do anything with the tenant. Thread carefully


  • #11
    pk82
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭pk82


    I would also reiterate the sentiment expressed here that it is unwise to do anything to the livestock.

    I could imagine that were one for exampe to let them out onto a road and it could be proven that one did this and subsequently a beast is killed or causes an accident, one could be in serious trouble.

    The situation is stressful enough without going form bad to worse


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  • #12
    6480
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭6480


    if he has no written agreement like a lease he s no right to be there


  • #13
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    if you told him that he cant come onto the land and you have the right to say so and he ignores this then it becomes aggravated trespass which goes from a civil matter to a criminal matter.


  • #14
    sea12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭sea12


    6480 wrote: »
    if he has no written agreement like a lease he s no right to be there

    Cheeky fcuker. Get a solicitor involved straight away. Never mind giving him a verbal warning he will just laugh in your face again. Contact dept of ag and tell them cattle are on your property without your permission. As someone said if he doesn't have the land on maps it will cause him difficulties.

    Not a nice situation to be in. Best of luck with it.


  • #15
    pk82
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭pk82


    6480 wrote: »
    if he has no written agreement like a lease he s no right to be there

    That is not quite true. Verbal agreements do exist and are enforceable BUT the ability to prove same is very difficult (unless for example a witness were present when the verbal agreement were made - but still shaky)


  • #16
    pk82
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭pk82


    Sharpshooter82 wrote: »
    if you told him that he cant come onto the land and you have the right to say so and he ignores this then it becomes aggravated trespass which goes from a civil matter to a criminal matter.

    I do not think aggravated trespass is known to Irish law.

    I stand to be corrected - Have you some reference for this?


  • #17
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    pk82 wrote: »
    That is not quite true. Verbal agreements do exist and are enforceable BUT the ability to prove same is very difficult (unless for example a witness were present when the verbal agreement were made - but still shaky)
    wont stand up in the legal system


  • #18
    pk82
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭pk82


    Sharpshooter82 wrote: »
    wont stand up in the legal system

    That is the point: very hard for him (the guy taking the land) to prove.


  • #19
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    pk82 wrote: »
    I do not think aggravated trespass is known to Irish law.

    I stand to be corrected - Have you some reference for this?

    thats why you can shoot people on your property now if you feel threatened


  • #20
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    pk82 wrote: »
    That is the point: very hard for him (the guy taking the land) to prove.
    esp if the other party involved has passed


  • #21
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Are you working.If so give him until you get home from work to get them out,if they not out turn them out yourself.and lock the gate....the longer he is in,the harder he will be to get out IMO

    nip this in the bud.and best of luck OP....I hate this kind of messing:mad:


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  • #22
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    here is a good previous thread for ya OP
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055265252


  • #23
    Dont be daft
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Dont be daft


    Sharpshooter82 wrote: »
    thats why you can shoot people on your property now if you feel threatened

    That scenario involves criminal trespass. Trespass with the intention of committing a crime.

    What the OP is talking about is civil trespass and could only become a criminal offence if it was to commit a crime or in breach of a court order.
    All the farmer has to do is claim a verbal agreement with the deceased and then proving civil trespass becomes difficult.

    OP, solicitor is your best avenue now I'm afraid.
    Depending on the circumstances your solicitor can do a few things ranging from a simple cease and desist letter to an injunction to a full blown summons.

    And do yourself a favour, when he's gone get in a good tenant on a fixed lease. People only come into farms were they think they can get away with it.


  • #24
    towzer2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 533 ✭✭✭towzer2010


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Are you working.If so give him until you get home from work to get them out,if they not out turn them out yourself.and lock the gate....the longer he is in,the harder he will be to get out IMO

    nip this in the bud.and best of luck OP....I hate this kind of messing:mad:

    Yes nip it in the bud but not by interfering with his livestock. That is a recipe for disaster. Solicitor is your best bet and get it sorted legally. Anything else could escalate into a bad situation.


  • #25
    dodderangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    You could fill your freezer for a year or two or just simply open the gates and send his cattle on their way.
    I wonder would the dspca be able to do anything about it


  • #26
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,512 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    dodderangler wrote: »
    You could fill your freezer for a year or two or just simply open the gates and send his cattle on their way.
    I wonder would the dspca be able to do anything about it

    No, but the guards would arrest you for endangering people by releasing livestock onto a road.


  • #27
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    towzer2010 wrote: »
    Yes nip it in the bud but not by interfering with his livestock. That is a recipe for disaster. Solicitor is your best bet and get it sorted legally. Anything else could escalate into a bad situation.

    You are probily correct....Its just I don't tink on how busy roads do be....its just I live in a v.quiet area....I tink it will come down to it....I have seen something v.similar happen to a friend of mine....He didn't have d money to get involved with solicters....they are still giving him wicked blackguarding


  • #28
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    Dont be daft wrote: »
    That scenario involves criminal trespass. Trespass with the intention of committing a crime.

    What the OP is talking about is civil trespass and could only become a criminal offence if it was to commit a crime or in breach of a court order.
    All the farmer has to do is claim a verbal agreement with the deceased and then proving civil trespass becomes difficult.

    OP, solicitor is your best avenue now I'm afraid.
    Depending on the circumstances your solicitor can do a few things ranging from a simple cease and desist letter to an injunction to a full blown summons.

    And do yourself a favour, when he's gone get in a good tenant on a fixed lease. People only come into farms were they think they can get away with it.

    if the Op is the rightful owner of the land, then he has the right to refuse admittance. The fact that he verbally told the farmer to leave and remove the cattle and he refused then he could be committing a criminal crime there and then as he doesnt have to trespass with intent because it is then burglary.
    He could be accused of instilling fear which is a criminal crime. Of course this has to be proven and doesnt mean much if the OP is not rightful owner of the land.

    verbal agreements have no bearing with one party deceased as not a hope of it standing up to the legal system even with a witness

    I agree fully with Dont be daft on contacting a solicitor as its the best and quickest way forward.
    I would still contact the guards so they can make a report of it so that if it came to legal proceedings at least you went to them first which would stand to ya.

    I firmly believe that the guy is only chancing his arm tho


  • #29
    wow sierra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭wow sierra


    How do the other neighbours feel about this - are you friendly with them? Is there anyone who could try to help you deal with him and try to sort it out unofficially? Some people respond to local pressure - I am guessing you and your sisters don't live locally anymore?

    If that's not an option then get a Solicitors letter sent to him as soon as possible, contact the Guards etc. He sounds like a nasty bully and you need to stand up to him. Maybe if he sees that you are strong he will back down.


  • #30
    Sharpshooter82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Sharpshooter82


    gingerfarmer wrote: »
    Hi everybody,

    . When my father passed he began to move more cattle on to the land than the agreed amount that my father and he came too.
    He seems to have already broken this verbal agreement so can he hide behind it?


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  • #31
    towzer2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 533 ✭✭✭towzer2010


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    You are probily correct....Its just I don't tink on how busy roads do be....its just I live in a v.quiet area....I tink it will come down to it....I have seen something v.similar happen to a friend of mine....He didn't have d money to get involved with solicters....they are still giving him wicked blackguarding

    I've had personal experience with it twice. The first time I was younger and more hot headed and I got involved With the people trespassing and it didn't end well so lesson learned.

    Recently had horses tresspassing and went down legal route and all properly sorted now.


  • #32
    Mo60
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭Mo60


    OP we were in a similar situation some time ago. Your only option is to go down the legal route, that is to contact a solicitor as soon as possible.


  • #33
    grange mac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 886 ✭✭✭grange mac


    Had similiar situation, wasnt wintering cattle so cousin asked could his sheep graze grass for winter. No prob. Fillowing year repeats exercise without telling me.

    Lost the plot when found out as had no grass following prev year. he said wud pay for fert....
    Said no. want his sheep out. why he asks..i said its principle of matter. Said wouldnt move em. Parents told me cool down...l told him would be on farm sat morning and if see his sheep ill leave all gates and gaps in farm open and if they go onto road nothing to do with me...they were gone following day.

    He hasnt spoke to me sence.
    Op dont b bullied by him. Stand up and inform him of facts and give him deadline...only then would i threatn legal.


  • #34
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    pk82 wrote: »
    That is not quite true. Verbal agreements do exist and are enforceable BUT the ability to prove same is very difficult (unless for example a witness were present when the verbal agreement were made - but still shaky)

    Yes they are enforceable however the land was given to the farmer for nothing. There was no quid pro quo. For this reason it is not an enforceable contract. It would appear that it was partly done on account of past mutual assistance. This cannot be legally accepted as consideration or quid pro quo. Past consideration is not adequate. I.e. I can't contractually agree to give you use if my field for something you have already done.


  • #35
    mf240
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭mf240


    Get a haulier and load the cattle and deliver them back safely to the farmers own property. Then lock the gate on your fathers land and erect a trespassers will be prosecuted sign.

    If the cattle are returned, repeat exercise but get the field ploughed. Bullys only target the weak.


  • #36
    keep going
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,551 ✭✭✭keep going


    First make a report to the gards that he is trespassing on your lands- they wont do anythhing about it but you are putting it on record.second phone the deptment and inform them , same thing. Then Go to him now and tell he has week to get them out or you will open the gates and tell him what you have done.but you must follow through, not saying to turn them out just saying to open the gates.


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  • #37
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Some of the above advice is criminal, some insane and a recipe to start a good old Irish fude.

    Contact a solicitor and have them deal with it. Have the solicitor request that he makes no direct contact with yourself at all.


  • #38
    PatQfarmer
    Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭PatQfarmer


    bbam wrote: »
    Some of the above advice is criminal, some insane and a recipe to start a good old Irish fude.

    Contact a solicitor and have them deal with it. Have the solicitor request that he makes no direct contact with yourself at all.

    Best advice in the thread!
    We let lots of land for clients. All lettings and terms documented.
    Recently took over "Letting" where tenant hadn't paid elderly lady owner for FIVE years! Talking nearly 100 acres! A mix of promises and threats from him kept her quiet until her family became involved and instructed us.
    Solicitors letter looking for back rent and damages for preventing us letting the lands to another tenant got the lands vacated.
    Some people will take as much leeway as they can, but as stated by a few, bullies usually back down when faced with legal route. Physical action such as opening gates will make YOU liable for any damage caused by or to his livestock and may end up costing more than the land is worth.
    Only way is solicitor, then find a decent tenant, on a long-term lease if you are not going to farm it.
    Best of luck.


  • #39
    ht9zni1gs28crp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭ht9zni1gs28crp


    Advertise the cattle for sale and put his number in the advert!





    not legal advice obviously but a light-hearted way of getting his attention!


  • #40
    lakill Farm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭lakill Farm


    sell all the gates on the farm. Call him and tell him your selling them and he can have first option on them :D. Enough warning :cool:


  • #41
    delaval
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭delaval


    bbam wrote: »
    Some of the above advice is criminal, some insane and a recipe to start a good old Irish fude.

    Contact a solicitor and have them deal with it. Have the solicitor request that he makes no direct contact with yourself at all.
    +1
    This is tricky territory, if a law is to be broken let him do it. A bullies match is always at hand it's only a matter of finding it solicitor is the first step

    Do NOT interfere with his stock.


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  • #42
    Lambofdave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 282 ✭✭Lambofdave


    Firstly sorry for your loss.

    A few things, are you dealing with this as the executor of the estate or has the will gone through probate?

    Make sure all you siblings are on the same page.

    Don't engage anymore with the man on the land, but keep a track of whats going on. The only way to solve this is by using a solicitor.


  • #43
    bob charles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    I would first give him a warning to be gone out of the place by such a date before you involve the law. cheap option, if he isnt gone by date then involve a shyster,sorry sorry -a Solicitor


  • #44
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    Put the mains directly onto the electric fence for a couple of days.

    Not literally, but show him you are no pushover.

    An Alsatian is another option.


  • #45
    Manoffeeling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Manoffeeling


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    Put the mains directly onto the electric fence for a couple of days.

    Not literally, but show him you are no pushover.

    An Alsatian is another option.

    Dogs? Fences?

    Solicitor, end of. €160 and it might be all sorted.


  • #46
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,512 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    Put the mains directly onto the electric fence for a couple of days.

    Not literally, but show him you are no pushover.

    An Alsatian is another option.

    Why don't you just rock up to the neighbours door and give him your bank account details? It will save you the hassle of going to court when he sues you :)

    Seriously, there is a lot of stupid and illegal advice here. Op, since your neighbour/ex friend isn't listening to your requests you should just consult a solicitor. Whatever you do don't go leaving gates open or blocking access to the animals or you will end up in more trouble than him.


  • #47
    bur
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭bur


    PatQfarmer wrote: »
    Best advice in the thread!
    We let lots of land for clients. All lettings and terms documented.
    Recently took over "Letting" where tenant hadn't paid elderly lady owner for FIVE years! Talking nearly 100 acres! A mix of promises and threats from him kept her quiet until her family became involved and instructed us.
    Solicitors letter looking for back rent and damages for preventing us letting the lands to another tenant got the lands vacated.
    Some people will take as much leeway as they can, but as stated by a few, bullies usually back down when faced with legal route. Physical action such as opening gates will make YOU liable for any damage caused by or to his livestock and may end up costing more than the land is worth.
    Only way is solicitor, then find a decent tenant, on a long-term lease if you are not going to farm it.
    Best of luck.

    How much does a solicitor charge to write a letter these days?


  • #48
    thenashlegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 478 ✭✭thenashlegend


    Would be agreeing with some of the other posters as in, open the gates and let them off. If he's enough of a p***k to laugh in your face, he deserves a good run to catch them. Then chain and padlock the gates.

    Having said that, there was a pound in Mayo that would collect "stray" animals. The owner then had to pay to release them.


  • #49
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Wow.
    Threads like this bring out alot of keyboard warriors and mad advice. I wonder if any have ever dealt with a difficult neighbour ever.

    OP has had a rough enough time without electrocuting, shooting, setting dogs on or running any mans stock to the road. This is just stoooping to the same primevial level as the idiot neighbour.

    Do it right.


  • #50
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,512 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    thenashlegend wrote: »
    Would be agreeing with some of the other posters as in, open the gates and let them off. If he's enough of a p***k to laugh in your face, he deserves a good run to catch them. Then chain and padlock the gates.

    Having said that, there was a pound in Mayo that would collect "stray" animals. The owner then had to pay to release them.

    Honestly now, do you think he's going to try to run and catch them or take you to court and laugh all the way to the bank? Because he'd win, no doubt about it.


  • #51
    iverjohnston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭iverjohnston


    First of all, when did if put the cattle onto the land?
    You mention that your late father allowed him use the land to alleviate the effects of the hard spring we have just had. The cattle owner may well claim that your father give it to him for the year . Either way, they should be gone off the land by November 1st. in the interest of good land husbandry.
    If you are friendly with a solicitor, or indeed are dealing or about to deal with one to settle your fathers estate, they Will be eager to help get this guy off the land, and the case concluded, cause this is when they get paid .


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