Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 05:46PM

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Yep, stupid in the extreme. Not sure what he was hoping to gain by saying that either

You certainly couldn't call Mick Dawson stupid. It was a considered move.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 29-09-2013 05:47PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You certainly couldn't call Mick Dawson stupid. It was a considered move.

what does it gain him though?

keps · 29-09-2013 05:49PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You certainly couldn't call Mick Dawson stupid. It was a considered move.

You cannot say that with any certainty( the 2nd part of the statement)

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 05:51PM

keps wrote: »

You cannot say that with any certainty( the 2nd part of the statement)

How can you be certain that I'm not certain

keps · 29-09-2013 05:53PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How can you be certain that I'm not certain

I'd have to say in no uncertain terms that in all certainty you cannot be certain.

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 05:57PM

keps wrote: »

I'd have to say in no uncertain terms that in all certainty you cannot be certain.

Well look at it this way, Mick Dawson very rarely would make a public comment on anything. But you are saying that he was speaking to an English journalist about something that is hugely controversial and he made a statement that he hadn't considered? He wouldn't say anything ill-considered to an Irish journalist, let alone an English one (was it Paul Rees? can't remember now).

keps · 29-09-2013 06:00PM

All I said is that you cannot be certain. It may be your strong opinion.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 29-09-2013 06:01PM

What does Dawson speaking to anyone gain him though?!

Tox56 · 29-09-2013 06:03PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well look at it this way, Mick Dawson very rarely would make a public comment on anything. But you are saying that he was speaking to an English journalist about something that is hugely controversial and he made a statement that he hadn't considered? He wouldn't say anything ill-considered to an Irish journalist, let alone an English one (was it Paul Rees? can't remember now).

You could say the English journalist would be looking to draw a quote on the issue out of him in the way an Irish journalist wouldn't. In any case, something can be both stupid and considered

keps · 29-09-2013 06:05PM

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

What does Dawson speaking to anyone gain him though?!

Personally I think, and have reason to believe, that it was an unguarded statement in an unguarded moment.

But i cannot be certain.

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 06:11PM

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

What does Dawson speaking to anyone gain him though?!

It does a few things. It ensures there'll be media pressure on the IRFU if the tournament goes ahead and they don't opt in as the media will be saying it's against the provinces wishes. It could also end up buying them time during the end game when the deadline for applying for the tournament comes up.

It's those kinds of statements that make me sure there'll be a European competition next year though. Noone is going to get away with refusing to play in something. Also what Rob Kearney said, right after becoming IRUPA chairman. There is pressure coming on from within the professional game in this country.

Tox56 · 29-09-2013 06:18PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It does a few things. It ensures there'll be media pressure on the IRFU if the tournament goes ahead and they don't opt in as the media will be saying it's against the provinces wishes. It could also end up buying them time during the end game when the deadline for applying for the tournament comes up.

It's those kinds of statements that make me sure there'll be a European competition next year though. Noone is going to get away with refusing to play in something. Also what Rob Kearney said, right after becoming IRUPA chairman. There is pressure coming on from within the professional game in this country.

Media pressure should not and hopefully will not have any bearing on the IRFU's decision making process. Balance that against the weakening of the IRFU's negotiating position as a result of these remarks and I think any bollocking he is said to have received is deserved. If he wants to put the pressure on the IRFU internally that's his business, but making a public statement like that was foolish IMO

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 29-09-2013 06:21PM

Tox56 wrote: »

Media pressure should not and hopefully will not have any bearing on the IRFU's decision making process. Balance that against the weakening of the IRFU's negotiating position as a result of these remarks and I think any bollocking he is said to have received is deserved. If he wants to put the pressure on the IRFU internally that's his business, but making a public statement like that was foolish IMO

Ya I'd essentially agree with this. If a new tournament is to go ahead no one is going to refuse Leinster entry. He should have kept his mouth shut, unity should be the name of the game for the provinces

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 06:35PM

Tox56 wrote: »

Media pressure should not and hopefully will not have any bearing on the IRFU's decision making process. Balance that against the weakening of the IRFU's negotiating position as a result of these remarks and I think any bollocking he is said to have received is deserved. If he wants to put the pressure on the IRFU internally that's his business, but making a public statement like that was foolish IMO

I don't think it will have any influence on the IRFU's decision making process, I think it will have influence on PRL/LNR's decision making process.

keps · 29-09-2013 06:38PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It does a few things. It ensures there'll be media pressure on the IRFU if the tournament goes ahead and they don't opt in as the media will be saying it's against the provinces wishes.

.

I'm not sure what this means?

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 10:16PM

Wray up to his usual tricks in his latest interview. He really knows how to wind people up!

errlloyd · 30-09-2013 03:57AM

Complete tangent, but if they did pull out of the HCup and we end up with nothing, it'd free up 9 weeks on the calendar. I had a weird brain wave on how we could use it.

I'd love to the Celtic nations and Italy decide to play an international tournament to try and help cover the shortfall. Each plays each other once in the opposite home and away set up to that years 6 nations. (Wouldn't be ideal for us actually, cause we'd end up playing them all at home, or all away).

I've always thought our national team could do with a few more fixtures a year. Obviously anglo / french based players wouldn't be available for it, so it might give them an added incentive to stay with us, as well as boosting our revenues.

Maybe the clubs would get a pissy because their grounds weren't been used though.

irishbucsfan · 30-09-2013 08:57AM

Interesting idea. The problem with an international competition outside IRB windows is that first it would need to be approved and controlled by the IRB which they may not be happy with because of reason 2. Secondly, if the Welsh players going out of contract move abroad then Wales, Scotland and Italy would all be without their best players, harming the value of the competition. Thirdly, the Unions would have to fund and participate and may not be happy to then hand over those profits to the clubs. Fourthly, the clubs will still lose their season ticket renewals, TV deals, sponsorship etc.

I think it really has to be a club competition of some sort.

WorldRugby99 · 30-09-2013 02:14PM

I know it would be a bit of a farce but surely its still possible that the heinken cup wiill continue? Yes the English and French clubs may not be involved and that is their right and choice to not be in it as they have given the appropriate notice but that doesnt automatically mean the tournament has ended.It still has sponsors,and a broadcaster(sky),although im sure they wouldnt exactly be happy about it. Yes it will end up being what the unions decide as to whether they allow their teams to join a new tournament but if they dont,no one has said heineken wont still exist have they?

thomond2006 · 30-09-2013 02:21PM

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

I know it would be a bit of a farce but surely its still possible that the heinken cup wiill continue? Yes the English and French clubs may not be involved and that is their right and choice to not be in it as they have given the appropriate notice but that doesnt automatically mean the tournament has ended.It still has sponsors,and a broadcaster(sky),although im sure they wouldnt exactly be happy about it. Yes it will end up being what the unions decide as to whether they allow their teams to join a new tournament but if they dont,no one has said heineken wont still exist have they?

What use would a Heineken Cup be without the English or French though?

rrpc · 30-09-2013 02:21PM

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

I know it would be a bit of a farce but surely its still possible that the heinken cup wiill continue? Yes the English and French clubs may not be involved and that is their right and choice to not be in it as they have given the appropriate notice but that doesnt automatically mean the tournament has ended.It still has sponsors,and a broadcaster(sky),although im sure they wouldnt exactly be happy about it. Yes it will end up being what the unions decide as to whether they allow their teams to join a new tournament but if they dont,no one has said heineken wont still exist have they?

No, that's quite true and is what happened in 1999 when England pulled out. It might be more difficult if both England and France pull out, but I'm not convinced that France wouldn't continue if their conditions were met. And their conditions aren't primarily about money or even meritocracy.

It's certainly one option. Another one is what ironically the PRL suggested should happen back in 2007 when the French were getting slightly bolshie. That suggestion was that the FFR should nominate other teams from lower divisions to take the French places.

.ak · 30-09-2013 02:23PM

I wonder, and it's been mentioned before, but in order to keep the competition seperate to a pro12 look they could invite championship and d2 sides into the tournament for a year.

bilston · 30-09-2013 02:26PM

.ak wrote: »

I wonder, and it's been mentioned before, but in order to keep the competition seperate to a pro12 look they could invite championship and d2 sides into the tournament for a year.

It wouldn't be ideal but it's better than no tournament at all...I think...

However would the Championship and D2 clubs want to piss off the PRL and LNR given they all aspire to become members of those organisations via promotion to their leagues?

Howard Juneau · 30-09-2013 02:27PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

What use would a Heineken Cup be without the English or French though?

Munster will get a few more stars on their shirts very quickly

Oh hang on......we don't do that....who does I wonder

rrpc · 30-09-2013 02:29PM

bilston wrote: »

It wouldn't be ideal but it's better than no tournament at all...I think...

However would the Championship and D2 clubs want to piss off the PRL and LNR given they all aspire to become members of those organisations via promotion to their leagues?

Championship clubs mightn't give a fiddlers seeing as the requirements to join the big boys are in many cases out of reach. However the lure of some nice Euro dosh could dispel any doubts.

Ultimately it would be down to the Unions.

.ak · 30-09-2013 02:29PM

bilston wrote: »

It wouldn't be ideal but it's better than no tournament at all...I think...

However would the Championship and D2 clubs want to piss off the PRL and LNR given they all aspire to become members of those organisations via promotion to their leagues?

Sure what can the PRL and LNR do about it? If they did anything untoward there'd be serious grounds for legal action. They'd need to take it up with their unions if they had an issue with it.

.ak · 30-09-2013 02:30PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Munster will get a few more stars on their shirts very quickly
Oh hang on......we don't do that....who does I wonder

The better teams, generally.

rrpc · 30-09-2013 02:37PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Munster will get a few more stars on their shirts very quickly
Oh hang on......we don't do that....who does I wonder

Toulouse

Leicester

And of course Leinster

rrpc · 30-09-2013 02:39PM

That Toulouse jersey is very nice

.ak · 30-09-2013 02:42PM

Bath do it also.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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