Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

rrpc · 28-09-2013 03:46PM

keps wrote: »

My bet is that there will be an agreed solution before the October ERC meeting.

Except PRL have been advised by their lawyers to stay away from it.

keps · 28-09-2013 03:55PM

I think the solution will come prior to the proposed date for that meeting and that the meeting will then not be needed &cancelled.
Just my 2 cents.

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 04:12PM

keps wrote: »

I think the solution will come prior to the proposed date for that meeting and that the meeting will then not be needed &cancelled.
Just my 2 cents.

I'd be extremely surprised if the Celtic nations don't hold out long enough to take a shot at the FFR and RFU at the ERC meeting.

And I'd be equally surprised if there's any negotiation at all with the 'rebel scum' before then as well.

Winters · 28-09-2013 04:54PM

Rugby is certainly at a cross roads.

It has to decide in what direction it wants to go. Does it want to go down the route that soccer has gone or another route.

My only worry is that as long as the private owners that drive the route towards soccer are in power this issue will never go away.

rrpc · 28-09-2013 04:56PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd be extremely surprised if the Celtic nations don't hold out long enough to take a shot at the FFR and RFU at the ERC meeting.

And I'd be equally surprised if there's any negotiation at all with the 'rebel scum' before then as well.

It's not in anyone's interest to have the 'rebel scum' outside the tent pissing in. If they've painted themselves into a corner with the BT deal, it's incumbent on everyone to get them out of it as cleanly as possible.

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 05:03PM

rrpc wrote: »

It's not in anyone's interest to have the 'rebel scum' outside the tent pissing in. If they've painted themselves into a corner with the BT deal, it's incumbent on everyone to get them out of it as cleanly as possible.

Ah yes, but they'd argue they're in a better tent pissing out the door at an old-fashioned tent that's being held up by a single final Canadian tent pole.

The more they piss the greener the grass gets in between I suppose.

Winters · 28-09-2013 05:32PM

Some thoughts from the Italian side of things

The problem is not the ERC or the Cup format, the problem is the path that club rugby has taken in those two countries in recent times

And how will this saga end? "I see a Heineken Cup with the same number of participants as the last few seasons," said Gavazzi. "History tells us that an agreement will be reached at the very last minute of the last day. That's what happened in Paris four years ago, remember?"

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/200017.html

I saw this article and had to have a little laugh

Losing players like O'Driscoll would be a blow to an Anglo-French European tournament

Perhaps the real reason the Heineken Cup is being scrapped is because BOD is retiring...?
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/rugby_union/Heineken_Cup/article1313767.ece

Also, todays piece by Gerry Thornley on Phillip Browne, the IRFU Finances and also ERC negotiations.

They talk to their unions and we’re talking to their unions as well and we would hope common sense will prevail, and that people understand that if what you want is a vibrant competition in Europe, formatted in a way that suits everyone and a fair distribution, I think all of that can be delivered. I think what cannot be delivered is effectively a governing structure which blocks units out

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/safe-hands-at-the-wheel-as-irfu-braces-itself-for-perfect-storm-1.1542927

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 05:43PM

Good to hear from them, it's quite rare we get anything that leaves Italy. As far as I know he was the guy who ran against the Benetton guy to get his position, which was an interesting little story out of Italy.

We will defend our two places in the Heineken Cup

Good luck with that one!

keps · 28-09-2013 11:49PM

More spin from the Guardian – with Eddie Butler leading the way- surprise,surprise!

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/sep/28/heineken-cup-european-rugby-union

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/28/welsh-heineken-cup-crisis

Larbre34 · 29-09-2013 02:57PM

Butler full of contradictions there, but incidentally since when did Leinster express an interest in joining the fantasy cup?

Neil Francis was talking on the Top14 coverage last night and suggesting that the outcome will be a compromise of only slight modification from the status quo for reasons of the good of the northern hemisphere game, that the RFU will torpedo the 'champions cup', the LNR will come to heel of the FFR in typical French fashion as they do not have the courage of the PR clubs convictions, and that McCafferty and a few colleagues will be sacked for disgraceful and commercially and legally questionable behaviour contrary to the game in England.

I agree with that and is pretty much what I felt would happen since June

keps · 29-09-2013 03:14PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Butler full of contradictions there, but incidentally since when did Leinster express an interest in joining the fantasy cup?

see here

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/198661.html

I know for a fact that MD has been severely reprimanded

danthefan · 29-09-2013 03:24PM

keps wrote: »

see here

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/198661.html

I know for a fact that MD has been severely reprimanded

Was a crazy thing for him to come out with in public, dunno what he was thinking. It's unusual because he seems to have done a great job over the years.

keps · 29-09-2013 03:25PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Neil Francis was talking on the Top14 coverage last night and suggesting that the outcome will be a compromise of only slight modification from the status quo for reasons of the good of the northern hemisphere game, that the RFU will torpedo the 'champions cup', the LNR will come to heel of the FFR in typical French fashion as they do not have the courage of the PR clubs convictions, and that McCafferty and a few colleagues will be sacked for disgraceful and commercially and legally questionable behaviour contrary to the game in England.

I agree with that and is pretty much what I felt would happen since June

Typical Francis Bullsh*t.

The real answer to this is a compromise where everyone can say they have achieved what they were aiming at/ would have agreed to all along.
McCafferty is only doing what he is being told to by the main club owners- and they won't sack him for obeying orders.

thomond2006 · 29-09-2013 03:26PM

Out of curiosity, was that Top14 coverage with Francis on Setanta or BT Sports?

danthefan · 29-09-2013 03:27PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, was that Top14 coverage with Francis on Setanta or BT Sports?

Setanta.

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 03:27PM

Francis is incredibly out of touch with the sport. It's amazing he has a job at all. At least George Hook is a decent broacaster 6 days a week.

Francis suggested a possible way to solve the current problem would be taking the money used to develop the sport in emerging nations and use it to bribe the clubs. He's mad.

rrpc · 29-09-2013 03:29PM

keps wrote: »

Typical Francis Bullsh*t.

The real answer to this is a compromise where everyone can say they have achieved what they were aiming at/ would have agreed to all along.
McCafferty is only doing what he is being told to by the main club owners- and they won't sack him for obeying orders.

See Nuremberg circa 1946 :pac:

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 29-09-2013 03:33PM

Francis is a complete bluffer. Sure he was claiming the boks were playing the AB's last weekend with Pienaar at 9 despite the game not being on for three weeks and there being no rugby championship games on that weekend

Don't know what the hell Mick Dawson was thinking of breaking ranks like that. Idiotic

Larbre34 · 29-09-2013 04:44PM

Thats the thing, I believe MCafferty is doing far more than his brief. Certainly there are hawkish owners at Bath and Sarries etc who delight in rattling cages and likely cheerlead MCafferty but there are far more conciliatory tones coming from the likes of Peter Wheeler. Ive said before I believe that a good number of PR clubs must be horrified how this thing is going, at the tactics of the representative company, at the massive headache that is the potential liability and damage to themselves if the strategy fails and they become open to legal action for non performance of huge contracts.

This is exactly what happened in Formula 1 in decades gone by, have a read about the dynamics between the FIA, the teams and their agent, or gamekeeper turned poacher in Bernie Ecclestone who took advantage of political and organisational vacuums to pull control of everything under FOM, ie himself. Rugby is leaving itself open to a dangerous vacuum.

irishbucsfan · 29-09-2013 05:00PM

Peter Wheeler is a lot less agressive than McCafferty but you can be sure he and the Tigers guys are fully behind him and they've said nothing at all to indicate otherwise, Wheeler is fed up with the ERC himself and I don't know why you'd think he would be horrified.

I don't think there really has been an owner who has come out to suggest anything less than full support for their approach. Gloucester, LI, Bath, Sarries owners are pretty vocal, Leicester chairman Peter Tom is quite clearly behind him as well as he has said.

Northampton don't have a chairman at the moment I believe, Wasps have a brand new owner.....

Really the only key figure in the league who I haven't seen anything from is Brian Kennedy who is normally quite outspoken I believe?

You've also got the Players' Union behind the new competition and RFU CEO having said nothing yet except they support PRL's demands. So I think Francis might be being just a little premature.

keps · 29-09-2013 05:04PM

Nothing directly to do with the Heineken- but this does tell you the type of direction the Clubs in England are being allowed take by the RFU

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/english-rugby-premiership/10890/referees-in-quit-threat-over-rfus-big-brother-plan/

phog · 29-09-2013 05:08PM

keps wrote: »

see here

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/198661.html

I know for a fact that MD has been severely reprimanded

Has he really said anything that Ulster & Munster aren't considering too. The world and their mother know the provinces won't survive on the Rabo alone.

Obviously, they'll have to have the backing of the IRFU but can't see that being an issue if as Dawson says it all goes pear shaped.

keps · 29-09-2013 05:11PM

It's just like showing your poker hand to your opponents

phog · 29-09-2013 05:15PM

keps wrote: »

It's just like showing your poker hand to your opponents

True in a way but is there anyone in rugbyland thinking the Irish won't join the new competition if the H/cup fades away.

Howard Juneau · 29-09-2013 05:16PM

phog wrote: »

True in a way but is there anyone in rugbyland thinking the Irish won't join the new competition if the H/cup fades away.

Nobody of sane thinking......Warning! This may not include the IRFU

keps · 29-09-2013 05:23PM

The only real way that the Premier Rugby breakaway competition will be 'defeated' is if all the Celtic and Italian Unions and clubs stay totally unified.

McCafferty's strategy is to divide and conquer and seeking out weaknesses/uncertainties in Wales and Ireland is the number one priority- and Dawson played right into his hands with a PUBLIC statement the Leinster would have to consider etc

phog · 29-09-2013 05:29PM

keps wrote: »

The only real way that the Premier Rugby breakaway competition will be 'defeated' is if all the Celtic and Italian Unions and clubs stay totally unified.

McCafferty's strategy is to divide and conquer and seeking out weaknesses/uncertainties in Wales and Ireland is the number one priority- and Dawson played right into his hands with a PUBLIC statement the Leinster would have to consider etc

All true but anyone who knows the Irish setup know that the IRFU will decide and not the provinces. I can see why the IRFU weren't happy but it wasn't a surprise that the/a province would want join up.

keps · 29-09-2013 05:31PM

So you think that Dawson was right to say what he did - which is the issue.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 29-09-2013 05:33PM

keps wrote: »

The only real way that the Premier Rugby breakaway competition will be 'defeated' is if all the Celtic and Italian Unions and clubs stay totally unified.

McCafferty's strategy is to divide and conquer and seeking out weaknesses/uncertainties in Wales and Ireland is the number one priority- and Dawson played right into his hands with a PUBLIC statement the Leinster would have to consider etc

Yep, stupid in the extreme. Not sure what he was hoping to gain by saying that either

phog · 29-09-2013 05:44PM

keps wrote: »

So you think that Dawson was right to say what he did - which is the issue.

No, he wasn't right but as I said earlier there isn't one person that follows rugby in Europe surprised to hear that an Irish province would play in the new competition so I'm not sure it's a huge issue.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

Comments