Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

irishbucsfan · 27-09-2013 05:04PM

molloyjh wrote: »

How would you make up the Amlin numbers so? There would be 2 spots left to fill in it assuming you're going for a 20 team tournament.

I also think the financial incentive is important as a driver for league performance. Imagine Cardiff came over to Dublin with the sort of attitude they showed last year if there was £1m on the line for the WRU? Nevermind that it could convince the Scots that if they took the league a bit more seriously (and didn't pull internationals out in the build up to RWCs) they could earn money for doing it.

The other 2 teams are supposed to be coming from the 3rd tier tournament. Which will take place before the Amlin starts. I guess for both finalists. What you're doing is completely ring fencing European rugby for 6 countries.

irishbucsfan · 27-09-2013 05:06PM

rrpc wrote: »

That's the current system too.

Nope it isn't. At the moment 16 participants outvote 26 participants 2 to 1. That is why they pulled the plug.

rrpc · 27-09-2013 05:09PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nope it isn't. At the moment 16 participants outvote 26 participants 2 to 1. That is why they pulled the plug.

OK, that's a great point, I can see how those 26 particpants will all be holding differing points of view being from 26 different leagues and all.

molloyjh · 27-09-2013 05:10PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The other 2 teams are supposed to be coming from the 3rd tier tournament. Which will take place before the Amlin starts. I guess for both finalists. What you're doing is completely ring fencing European rugby for 6 countries.

Fair enough. So the winner and runner-up from the 3rd tier make the Amlin then?

irishbucsfan · 27-09-2013 05:13PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Fair enough. So the winner and runner-up from the 3rd tier make the Amlin then?

Yeah that's the plan as far as I'm aware. I'm sure they'll use those Italian sides to pad out the numbers in that competition. I'd say they'd need 8 teams at an absolute minimum.

Winters · 27-09-2013 05:18PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

At the moment 4 unions outvote 2 unions 2 to 1.

Fixed that for you.

irishbucsfan · 27-09-2013 05:22PM

rrpc wrote: »

OK, that's a great point, I can see how those 26 particpants will all be holding differing points of view being from 26 different leagues and all.

Ah so being from the same league means you have the same take on a European issue?

How is it fair then that the Rabo is represented by 4 of 6 votes? So effectively they just dictate what happens in Europe...

Winters · 27-09-2013 05:39PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah so being from the same league means you have the same take on a European issue?

How is it fair then that the Rabo is represented by 4 of 6 votes? So effectively they just dictate what happens in Europe...

Because I trust Nigel Wray et al about as far as I can throw them?

desertcircus · 27-09-2013 05:48PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah so being from the same league means you have the same take on a European issue?

How is it fair then that the Rabo is represented by 4 of 6 votes? So effectively they just dictate what happens in Europe...

It drives me nuts that everyone talks about the Rabo. The Rabo gets zero slots for the HC. The national unions get slots and decide how to fill them. If Wales sent Pontypool, Pontypridd and Neath, Scotland sent Esher and resurrected Border Reivers, Italy sent Viadana and Parma and Ireland sent Shannon, Blackrock and Malone to the HC would that mean we could give up this disingenuous obfuscation and finally acknowledge that HC places are in the gift of the unions for a reason?

27-09-2013 06:23PM

The Bank puts forward no teams for the HEC as far as I can tell.

As we're discussing participants being in charge, how about we go a step further and allow each player a vote?

Can't recall the last time Nigel Wray participated in the HEC.

irishbucsfan · 27-09-2013 06:49PM

desertcircus wrote: »

It drives me nuts that everyone talks about the Rabo. The Rabo gets zero slots for the HC. The national unions get slots and decide how to fill them. If Wales sent Pontypool, Pontypridd and Neath, Scotland sent Esher and resurrected Border Reivers, Italy sent Viadana and Parma and Ireland sent Shannon, Blackrock and Malone to the HC would that mean we could give up this disingenuous obfuscation and finally acknowledge that HC places are in the gift of the unions for a reason?

And I think you're missing the point if that's your line of thinking. The league doesn't put forward any teams. But the 4 unions share a league (and therefore their voting interests as per above) yet those 4 unions, who enter 12 teams into the ERC outvote the 2 unions from 2 leagues who enter 26 teams. And it doesn't work, because if those 26 teams agree on an issue but the 12 from the Rabo don't, the 26 are forced to break the competition to make it happen. And people are pretending as if that is a system that is fair.

If those 26 teams don't feel it's fair, they're within their rights to leave, which they have done with 2 years notice, and look for a better situation.

keps · 27-09-2013 10:47PM

Talked to an ERC guy this evening-their( and unions) decision not to use ERC in their Statements was a deliberate and planned' olive branch' to PRL .

Personally I think it has backfired- as it showed weakness.

McCBrian · 27-09-2013 11:37PM

Don't know if it has been posted already, apologies if it has, but latest from Saints chairman Allan Robson (IBF you have been outed:) as you/both said the same incorrect facts)

Rugby Champions Cup: 'Massive chance' Pro12 clubs will join Despite the IRFU/WRU/SRU and FIR issuing statements yesterday that they are keeping their options open

"There's a massive chance [they will join]. Because that's what we want as well," Yes they PRL want it:rolleyes:

"But we do need them to agree. And if their unions are making the decision instead of the clubs and the regions, and I'm not saying they are, we need them to agree." What do you not understand from the statements made by all 4 Unions involved in the Rabo yesterday

"favours teams from the Pro12, which is made up of sides from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy, who will be allowed to join the potential new tournament." Think you will have to speak to your partners in this new competition as they now seem to have moved the goalposts as they need more teams as they can not deliver if the European Unions do not counternance the tournament and seem to be inviting National teams to participate as well as SH franchises o; which is a completely new ballgame as any new tournament involving National sides will require full IRB approval and their meeting is next month

With the Pro12 having no relegation, it is argued teams can rest players for league matches to keep them fresh for Europe, while Premiership and Top 14 teams have to fight hard just to qualify. Not even going to comment on Bath last weekend and Sale tonight :rolleyes:
The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share.
Bruce Craig, the deputy chairman of English clubs organisation Premiership Rugby, warned on Wednesday that Pro12 clubs face "financial oblivion" if administrators try to thwart proposals for the Rugby Champions Cup.Missed out this part sorry as it has no veracity /COLOR]

And Robson added: "I believe we have made a compelling argument to the teams and their regions to take part in the competition we're structuring now.
"If I'm right and it is compelling, then they will come in. No you are not right

EDITED 23:58 to show the further imbecility of most of the RPL chairmen

keps · 27-09-2013 11:44PM

Their statements reek of desperation.

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 12:08AM

Ha inviting national teams.

Why on earth would they invite national teams and enforce the handing over of the control of the competition to the IRB council!

McCBrian · 28-09-2013 12:31AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ha inviting national teams.

Why on earth would they invite national teams and enforce the handing over of the control of the competition to the IRB council!

Because of the desperation of PRL not getting enough signatories to their Really Crap Cup having to get others onboard, as evidenced last night which you saw and dimissed as it was not in English/did not conform to with the PRL spin that is taken as gospel:)

Going to have a good weekend in Singapore and will check abck after the weekend to see if anything has changed. although doubt anything of substance will be revealed over the weekend :pac:

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 12:35AM

McCBrian wrote: »

Because of the desperation of PRL not getting enough signatories to their Really Crap Cup having to get others onboard, as evidenced last night which you saw and dimissed as it was not in English/did not conform to with the PRL spin that is taken as gospel:)

Going to have a good weekend in Singapore and will check abck after the weekend to see if anything has changed. although doubt anything of substance will be revealed over the weekend :pac:

Or you know, because it was an unsubstantiated rumour with no source!

McCBrian · 28-09-2013 12:40AM

Will leaveyou all with the this injest and comment as you see fit
Probably extend by a few pages by the time I am back online, not had time to read it but surely it will add to the debate:P

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/coupe-d-europe/2013-2014/rugby-champions-cup-la-lnr-en-remet-une-couche_sto3941083/story.shtml

McCBrian · 28-09-2013 01:00AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Or you know, because it was an unsubstantiated rumour with no source!

So the French press publish un-subtanstiated information?
Think you will find French law has become quite litigious recently and if any news source had, misquoted anything in print they would be sued to the limit.

If you knew anything about French Law then you would also appreciate that the LNR can not do anything without FFR approval, which puts a roadbump for PR: on their carrering down the cul-de-sac at 150kph (deliberately upped it from 100Kph yesterday as i can only see one outcome for PRL in ths situation)

Whereas everytinhg fed to the the UK media by PRL is sacrosant:rolleyes:

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 01:21AM

McCBrian wrote: »

So the French press publish un-subtanstiated information?

See: World Cup 2007

rrpc · 28-09-2013 09:38AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

See: World Cup 2007

Don't get the reference

rrpc · 28-09-2013 09:44AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah so being from the same league means you have the same take on a European issue?

How is it fair then that the Rabo is represented by 4 of 6 votes? So effectively they just dictate what happens in Europe...

Being from the same league and nation is not the same as being from the same league and four nations. The Welsh may have a different viewpoint from the Italians, the Irish from the Scots. It's not a given.

Negotiation is hard work, it requires commitment and the ability to see the other point of view. I've not seen any evidence that there's been anything other than an ultimatum given by the PRL/LNR to the rest of the ERC. From the start it's been "our way or the highway".

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 09:52AM

rrpc wrote: »

Don't get the reference

They were on a rampage! Surely you remember stuff like this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/2321727/Ronan-OGara-denies-despicable-reports.html

rrpc · 28-09-2013 10:03AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They were on a rampage! Surely you remember stuff like this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/2321727/Ronan-OGara-denies-despicable-reports.html

Those rumours weren't confined to the French Press though. There were a lot of similar rumours flying around here as well. I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing along this line though.

daveirl · 28-09-2013 03:09PM

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rrpc · 28-09-2013 03:22PM

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Two thirds of them are losing money and that's with current European money. Without that, more of them could well be in a loss making situation, or at best break even. There have been accusations that some of them are breaking the salary cap, so there may well be some 'off balance sheet' expenses that have to come from somewhere.

Without giving credence to the 'leaked' BT deal, there has to be some kind of financial penalty for not coming up with a European competition as BT aren't so stupid as to sign up for a pig in a poke. Whether this could hurt their domestic TV deal remains to be seen, but if you judge things solely by the increasing stridency of statements from PRL club heads then you'd have to ask; if not desperation then what?

keps · 28-09-2013 03:37PM

also as it currently stands it is possible that the French clubs could be blocked from playing in the proposed tournament by their union/minister of sport.

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2013 03:38PM

Noone is going to be without European rugby. It's too important. The English and French will be hurt by it, maybe not nearly as much as some of the Rabo teams, but it'll be a big blow.

It's way too much money to lose. The players themselves won't let it happen, there'll have to be something to pay their mortgages. There'll be a Euopean competition in some form or other and I don't see how anyone will be able to afford to miss out on it.

rrpc · 28-09-2013 03:42PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noone is going to be without European rugby. It's too important. The English and French will be hurt by it, maybe not nearly as much as some of the Rabo teams, but it'll be a big blow.

It's way too much money to lose. The players themselves won't let it happen, there'll have to be something to pay their mortgages. There'll be a Euopean competition in some form or other and I don't see how anyone will be able to afford to miss out on it.

For once IBF, I fully agree with you. What form that will take and who'll be involved will be another day's work, but a hiatus of even one season could put European Rugby back years. Never mind the inevitable court battles that would ensue.

keps · 28-09-2013 03:42PM

My bet is that there will be an agreed solution before the October ERC meeting.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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