Teachers set to be disciplined for obnoxious and greedy behaviour

Geomy · 25-09-2013 09:04AM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

About time in my opinion. Just want to give my full support to Minister Quinn.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/quinn-says-teachers-will-lose-protection-against-compulsory-redundancies-1.1538885

Protected and overpaid. They don't know the cushy number they had. They should apply this to the whole public service in Ireland too.

What happens if you end up with a job in the public service ?

Frank Black · 25-09-2013 09:11AM

Teachers feel they have taken enough cuts already, so for me the solution is obvious.
We should be increasing taxes on those working or alternatively increasing our borrowing requirement to ensure that teachers pay and conditions are maintained.
I know some might say they work in a profession where the chances of being made redundant are zero, where gold plated pensions are guaranteed, where you get 3 months off in the summer, where you are amongst the best paid members of your profession in Europe in a country which needs to borrow a billion a month just to stay solvent.
But that’s not important – the teachers feel they have taken enough cuts, and it’s incumbent on the rest of us to listen and give into their demands.

Leroy42 · 25-09-2013 09:13AM

They mentioned on PT last night that it was not about pay, it was about the education of the children. Always a good emotive point to make but I cannot see how accepting, or indeed rejecting, this deal has any impact on education.

I would have thought that the unions would have got an agreement that any cost savings due to HR would be put back into education(school buildings, SNA etc), but I haven't seen that.

So it does seem that this really is about money. The ASTI are basically saying that enough is enough. A previous poster said that the lot of new teachers was very bad compared to senior teachers. Isn't that an arguement for within the ASTI rather than the government?

I am just struggling to find the reason for this. While HR is of course leaving many in a worse position, it really is designed and delivered less worse than could have happened.

Lord TSC · 25-09-2013 09:21AM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

The only way to address that problem is to cut core pay, conditions and numbers to the European norm and at the same time redress the balance between infrastructure spending and pay.

Then let's ask the government to target the high earners and the big pensions. Let's ask them to target the bad teachers or work out a set of solutions that actually reduce these things.

But let's not give out about "paid holidays, short working hours, spoiled teachers in guaranteed jobs" by fighting for an agreement which asks them to do 5 extra classes a week and utterly devastated the young teachers (who are not paid for the summer if they are lucky to have a job, demand wages of half what the older teachers do and who will work 10 times harder to get to those positions).

The HR deal addresses your issues in the same way you deal with a sore finger by hacking off your leg.

SeventySix · 25-09-2013 09:25AM

What are ASTI willing to compromise on? So far I havent heard anything that they would accept? Has anyone? Given that every other union has accepted the deal, they must know that they will have to compromise, they have backed themselves in to a corner.

I think that all in all the system for teachers is a shambles. They really should be stoppping entry to the HDip, except for subjects that are actually needed. Its ridiculous in a way how they new teaching graduates, with subjects like English and History, feel like they are entitled to jobs, just because they have trained, when its their own bad subject choice that leaves them in that situation of being surplus to requirements.

20Cent · 25-09-2013 09:26AM

Just going to drop a few facts in here:

http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/why-do-we-hate-teachers/

Irish education manages to graduate more of those who start education (89%) than the OECD/EU average 83/84
A second level education in Ireland pays off. For a man it has a lifetime present value of $142k , for a woman $118. The oecd averages are $100 and $69
We spend more per student per annum at second level, $11k than the OECD or EU average $9k. Looking at this in terms of GDP per capita the discrepancy is less : 28% v 26% for the OECD/EU
We spend less on (primary and secondary) education – 7.4% – as proportion of total government expenditure than the OECD or EU – 8.6% and 7.6%
Total current spending including all wages (94% of all spending) is slightly higher than the OECD and EU averages (92%)
Salary costs per student per annum are $3800, compared to OECD average of 3400. In per capital terms its less of a discrepancy, 10.3% vs 10%
Irish teachers, compared to other tertiary educated workers, earn 82% of average salary. This is less than the EU or OECD average of 89%.
Irish teachers spend more time, net, teaching (735h) than the OECD or EU average ( 686h, 650h) .

WIZE · 25-09-2013 09:36AM

Hi All,

Just a few questions.

How much does the average secondary school teacher earn per year and what is the weeks hours worked.

the_syco · 25-09-2013 09:37AM

baldbear wrote: »

The teachers need to get real. Extra money for supervision? Thats crazy. I know loads of young unemployed teachers who would love thee guys jobs.

Would said unemployed teachers supervise for free, as well as whatever few hours? Don't forget; the break times you get by law are the ones you want the teachers not to have, and to give up said break times for free.

TeddyTedson wrote: »

The private sector is obviously tougher.

You'll see the odd thread about employers wanting their employees to do unpaid overtime. For teachers, unpaid overtime (correcting homework) is part of the job!

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

The private sector makes the money. Not the public sector.

The sh|ttier the public sector is, the less chance the private sector has.

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home.

At least we call the slaves jobs bridge, and don't take their passports...

ShagNastii wrote: »

My friend is a junior doctor

Poor bastard. Is the gubbernment still making them work multiple shifts without a break?

CruelCoin wrote: »

breadline.

How much are the general facilities in the other countries? Shelter, food, etc? Is it as expensive as here?

leonidas83 wrote: »

This argument concerning class sizes is nonsense, there's a lot of countries with larger classroom sizes than our own with teachers on average achieving far superior results & standards. This a typical excuse from teachers when trying to excuse the fact that our numeracy & literacy levels are falling.

Could you list the countries and their class sizes, please?

Shiraz 4.99 · 25-09-2013 09:39AM

wendell borton wrote: »

The teachers unions are a disgrace,they'll screw they're fellow teachers to keep ridiculous pensions. Young teachers coming into the job now get less pay and job security while those that got early retirement are on the pigs back.

There you have it in a nutshell, the whole profession & their unions should be ashamed at what they did by sacrificing new entrants conditions to protect the bloated wages & pensions of existing members.
This was disgusting they reap what they sow.

My sympathy dial is set to zero on this matter.

SpaceTime · 25-09-2013 09:42AM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home. As so many other countries around the world are run properly not like home.

P.S remember how the rest of the world looked upon Ireland as a bunch of savages when that Indian woman died in hospital in Galway? The moral being don't judge somewhere you know nothing about!

Yeah, Ireland has an issue with abortion laws.
Women's rights are generally extremely strong other than that one area which is pretty ridiculous and was created by referenda, not some kind of dictatorship and could be undone by the same process.

However, Ireland is not a very slightly dressed up absolute monarchy, which the UAE is. Ireland is a liberal democracy. It does not have extreme censorship and ranks very highly on the press freedom index. It has scored at the very top (#1) on the Human Development Index and currently sits at #7, where as the UAE is 42.

Being gay is not a criminal offence in Ireland punishable by severe penalties. In fact, your rights are protected and you can even effectively marry (well form a civil partnership with gay marriage quite likely to happen soon pending a referendum).

We do not have a widespread issue with indentured slaves and have generally quite excellent labour laws protecting people.

I could go on.

If you think the UAE's so great, you're living in a very privileged, liberal bubble in the middle of what is otherwise not a very liberal state for anyone other than those in the 'clique'!

Ireland's also not an oil-wealthy state. It has to make money out of trading! They just happen to be lucky enough to have been sitting on top of 98 billion barrels of oil. 40% of UAE GDP is based DIRECTLY on selling gas and oil and then you could count another huge % as spin off effects of that.

With that kind of wealth, it would be very difficult to have any kind of economic crisis without really going out of your way.

Your comparison is totally ridiculous.

...

If you want to make a critique of Ireland, I would suggest maybe compare with Finland or Denmark for example.
New Zealand's also a reasonable comparison.

ThePieintheSky · 25-09-2013 09:47AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

If you think the UAE's so great, you're living in a bubble!

Ireland's also not an oil-wealthy state. It has to make money out of trading!

Your comparison is totally ridiculous.

I wasn't comparing. I didn't bring it up.

I am aware of the issues. But trust me when I say it's best for an outsider to keep one's mouth shut. Not my country, not my business. I am not interfered with in any way so it really does not bother me. And it's a lot more liberal in any case than you seem to suggest from my experience.

ThePieintheSky · 25-09-2013 09:50AM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Then let's ask the government to target the high earners and the big pensions...

...to keep over paid public and civil servants in jobs? How would you feel if you were a private sector taxpayer?

The high earners thing is bull**** anyway. Even if you taxed them 100% to placate your begrudgery and your thinking that they owe everyone else because they are wealthy it wouldn't make any dent in the economic situation of this country. And they would rightly leave in any case.

duchalla · 25-09-2013 10:00AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePieintheSky
Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home. As so many other countries around the world are run properly not like home.

Haha! thats a good one! The UAE, where a teachers salary is decided by the colour of their skin....

EazyD · 25-09-2013 10:17AM

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

There you have it in a nutshell, the whole profession & their unions should be ashamed at what they did by sacrificing new entrants conditions to protect the bloated wages & pensions of existing members.
This was disgusting they reap what they sow.

My sympathy dial is set to zero on this matter.

This train of thought can be extended among many public sector positions. I'd be damn surprised if anyone within these unions actually questioned the conditions ruling, it's just easier to be a spineless twerp with pals/connections securing your own nest.

SpaceTime · 25-09-2013 10:25AM

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en

Good comparison table

ThePieintheSky · 25-09-2013 10:31AM

duchalla wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePieintheSky
Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home. As so many other countries around the world are run properly not like home.

Haha! thats a good one! The UAE, where a teachers salary is decided by the colour of their skin....

Of course there are issues here (and I never said anything about how great the place is either to previous poster - don't know where that is coming from) but

At least here you don't see scumbags or junkies roaming the streets.

You don't feel threatened going in to town.

You don't see drunks and druggies taking up the A&E's frightening old people.

They don't have ****e roads.

They don't punish people with tax.

The place is clean. Really clean.

Everything is well maintained.

No graffiti anywhere.

They don't reward people for sitting on their arse as in welfare at home.

Great weather.

Great food.

Great service.

Great hospitality.

...

And these people are backward are they? A lot of things are done far better here than in Ireland I have to say.

SpaceTime · 25-09-2013 10:32AM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

I wasn't comparing. I didn't bring it up.

I am aware of the issues. But trust me when I say it's best for an outsider to keep one's mouth shut. Not my country, not my business. I am not interfered with in any way so it really does not bother me. And it's a lot more liberal in any case than you seem to suggest from my experience.

That's because your experience is rather limited to certain circles I would suspect.

SpaceTime · 25-09-2013 10:37AM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Of course there are issues here (and I never said anything about how great the place is either to previous poster - don't know where that is coming from) but

At least here you don't see scumbags or junkies roaming the streets.

You don't feel threatened going in to town.

You don't see drunks and druggies taking up the A&E's frightening old people.

They don't have ****e roads.

They don't punish people with tax.

The place is clean. Really clean.

Everything is well maintained.

No graffiti anywhere.

They don't reward people for sitting on their arse as in welfare at home.

Great weather.

Great food.

Great service.

Great hospitality.

...

And these people are backward are they? A lot of things are done far better here than in Ireland I have to say.

Again : extreme oil wealth and a serious lack of democracy will make that kind of thing easier to do then having to deal with things like giving people you may not necessarily like human rights, freedom, due process etc etc.

Democracy and liberal societies have a little more chaos.

Gerry T · 25-09-2013 10:40AM

How much do teachers get paid anyway ?
Any teachers on or know of a teacher friend and what they get ? No point in saying they are over/under paid for the work they do unless its known what they get.
I'm sure must primary & secondary school teachers know the advantages of their job. No assessments, work as hard as they choose, short hours and fantastic annual leave, secure pension & Job. But that has to be set against the salary ?

SpaceTime · 25-09-2013 10:42AM

Gerry T wrote: »

How much do teachers get paid anyway ?
Any teachers on or know of a teacher friend and what they get ? No point in saying they are over/under paid for the work they do unless its known what they get.
I'm sure must primary & secondary school teachers know the advantages of their job. No assessments, work as hard as they choose, short hours and fantastic annual leave, secure pension & Job. But that has to be set against the salary ?

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en

chopper6 · 25-09-2013 10:42AM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

The private sector makes the money.

makes teh money in the least efficient way possible,overcharges for services,fails to declare tax returns and then applies for bankruptcy to save thier own skins.

Yes,they've done a great job making money for the country.

whirlpool · 25-09-2013 10:43AM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Of course there are issues here (and I never said anything about how great the place is either to previous poster - don't know where that is coming from) but

At least here you don't see scumbags or junkies roaming the streets.

You don't feel threatened going in to town.

You don't see drunks and druggies taking up the A&E's frightening old people.

They don't have ****e roads.

They don't punish people with tax.

The place is clean. Really clean.

Everything is well maintained.

No graffiti anywhere.

They don't reward people for sitting on their arse as in welfare at home.

Great weather.

Great food.

Great service.

Great hospitality.

...

And these people are backward are they? A lot of things are done far better here than in Ireland I have to say.

Are you not constantly on edge? terrified you'll get arrested and thrown in jail for breathing? or accidentally showing some skin? Or watching a racy Rihanna music video, or kissing your partner on the cheek in public? or for being a woman?

ThePieintheSky · 25-09-2013 10:48AM

whirlpool wrote: »

Are you not constantly on edge? terrified you'll get arrested and thrown in jail for breathing? or accidentally showing some skin? Or watching a racy Rihanna music video, or kissing your partner on the cheek in public? or for being a woman?

I'm not a woman!:pac: And no to all. It's not like that.

I saw an ad for Love/Hate season one on the tv here in a local magazine only yesterday for goodness sake!:D

No really, I did.

Gerry T · 25-09-2013 10:49AM

Sorry just saw your attachment SpaceTime. 33.5k starting is fair, most graduate engineers and professionals can expect to start at 28k to 32k. The lucky few get more but that's an exception. Now 55k for doing the same job 15 yr's later is taking the p1ss big time. If you were doing that in the private sector that wouldn't happen, you would be lucky with 45k. Then 62k as a Max, that's crazy high, are teachers on the same planet !! I appreciate its a hard job but really ? You could cut that to 50k and there would be a cue a mile long to do the job because of the conditions, notably the very very very short hr's and the very very very long annual leave.

SpaceTime · 25-09-2013 10:50AM

chopper6 wrote: »

makes teh money in the least efficient way possible,overcharges for services,fails to declare tax returns and then applies for bankruptcy to save thier own skins.

Yes,they've done a great job making money for the country.

That would be the bailed out speculative sector.
The rest of the private sector is paying for those cowboys!

SpaceTime · 25-09-2013 10:53AM

Gerry T wrote: »

Sorry just saw your attachment SpaceTime. 33.5k starting is fair, most graduate engineers and professionals can expect to start at 28k to 32k. The lucky few get more but that's an exception. Now 55k for doing the same job 15 yr's later is taking the p1ss big time. If you were doing that in the private sector that wouldn't happen, you would be lucky with 45k. Then 62k as a Max, that's crazy high, are teachers on the same planet !! I appreciate its a hard job but really ? You could cut that to 50k and there would be a cue a mile long to do the job because of the conditions, notably the very very very short hr's and the very very very long annual leave.

Major concern is where you compare it to say Finland. Good economic performance, similar population, best schools in Europe according to all stats.

chopper6 · 25-09-2013 10:58AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

The rest of the private sector is paying for those cowboys!

Sure they are...

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/

Irish private sector is full of chancers...thats what screwed up the country...currently there's an obsession with working for FMCs...that'll end well too when they bugger off to Poland or Bangladesh.

ThePieintheSky · 25-09-2013 11:07AM

chopper6 wrote: »

Sure they are...

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/

Irish private sector is full of chancers...thats what screwed up the country...currently there's an obsession with working for FMCs...that'll end well too when they bugger off to Poland or Bangladesh.

So is the public sector suppose to generate wealth? Please tell us how you go about this.

Lord TSC · 25-09-2013 11:10AM

Gerry T wrote: »

Sorry just saw your attachment SpaceTime. 33.5k starting is fair, most graduate engineers and professionals can expect to start at 28k to 32k. The lucky few get more but that's an exception. Now 55k for doing the same job 15 yr's later is taking the p1ss big time. If you were doing that in the private sector that wouldn't happen, you would be lucky with 45k. Then 62k as a Max, that's crazy high, are teachers on the same planet !! I appreciate its a hard job but really ? You could cut that to 50k and there would be a cue a mile long to do the job because of the conditions, notably the very very very short hr's and the very very very long annual leave.

I've talked about this before but I'll do so again; the "starting salary" for a teacher takes about 7-10 years post-graduating to actually reach. No teacher, especially nowadays, walks out of Uni into a full time job.

The vast majority will struggle to find sub-work for the first few years of their career (and HR gets rid of that anyway). If you're making 200 quid a month, you're considered lucky, cause most teachers barely even get a day a month.

After that, you might eventually get offered some 8 or 12 hour contract, which means you're only getting a portion of the wage. I, for instance, got a 12 hour contract last year, and thus only got half wages. That said, I was still expected to be working full time hours. It's not that half wage means half hours. I was still in from 8 till 5. As such, for the "part time job", I would still have only been making about 12k a year. But, of course, poor job security means that after two months, they decided not to renew my contract so back to the unemployment line.

Realistically then, I was lucky getting that. The true starting wage for newly qualified teachers is whatever the Jobseekers Allowance is that they can get.

Specialun · 25-09-2013 11:11AM

chopper6 wrote: »

Sure they are...

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/

Irish private sector is full of chancers...thats what screwed up the country...currently there's an obsession with working for FMCs...that'll end well too when they bugger off to Poland or Bangladesh.

Are you public sector by any chance?

Teachers set to be disciplined for obnoxious and greedy behaviour

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