Teachers set to be disciplined for obnoxious and greedy behaviour

ThePieintheSky

About time in my opinion. Just want to give my full support to Minister Quinn.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/quinn-says-teachers-will-lose-protection-against-compulsory-redundancies-1.1538885

Quinn says teachers will lose protection against compulsory redundancies

Protected and overpaid. They don't know the cushy number they had. They should apply this to the whole public service in Ireland too.

NuckingFacker

Yeah! And then, when we've fecked up their lives and reduced them to the breadline, we can start on all the other types of workers! This is gonna be great!

Menas

Oh no...no again. Public sector vs Private sector round 29.

baldbear

The teachers need to get real. Extra money for supervision? Thats crazy. I know loads of young unemployed teachers who would love thee guys jobs.

DrumSteve

Not all teachers are in cushy and overpaid jobs. A lot of the newer ones have been screwed over by older teachers.

There is more than meets the eye here.

ThePieintheSky

Sometimes I think i'd like to return home because I miss it.


But then I think do I want to pay half my salary to pay for overpaid, and under worked "job for life", sense of entitlement, unproductive civil and public servants? And I think - "no".

P.S I don't mean the new teachers who were screwed by the trade unions dominated by older teachers. I get their anger.

TeddyTedson

It's not that cushy for the newer teachers now in fairness.
A come on who are we kidding about this private vs public sector debate.
The private sector is obviously tougher.

ian87

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Sometimes I think i'd like to return home because I miss it.


But then I think do I want to pay half my salary to pay for overpaid, and under worked "job for life", sense of entitlement, unproductive civil and public servants? And I think - "no".

P.S I don't mean the new teachers who were screwed by the trade unions dominated by older teachers.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there. The Garda who is using his personal car to attend a callout as he isn't allowed use or there is no squad car available. The nurse trying to wade through a health system bursting at the seams. The teacher (myself) with a group of children well over the advised pupil teacher ratio sitting in front of me including 4 children who should be entitled to an SNA, one of whom has autism and was flat rejected last month. We are all overworked and underpaid.? There is dead wood in public service granted, but don't tell me we are all overworked and underpaid.

ThePieintheSky

TeddyTedson wrote: »

It's not that cushy for the newer teachers now in fairness.
A come on who are we kidding about this private vs public sector debate.
The private sector is obviously tougher.

Yes and what is the moral justification for the productive side of the economy being "tougher" than the side that takes the fruit of that production?

The private sector makes the money. Not the public sector.

wendell borton

The teachers unions are a disgrace,they'll screw they're fellow teachers to keep ridiculous pensions. Young teachers coming into the job now get less pay and job security while those that got early retirement are on the pigs back.

homerjay2005

nothing will happen. quinn will try to make changes, they will go on strike, nothing will change.

the unions in this country, are rotten to the core.

hfallada

I don't understand how the government is constantly cutting public sector wages. But yet they won't cut the ridculous wages in semi state companies eg the average wage in ESB is twice the average industrial wage. And when the government does eventually do something with semi state companies like Dublin bus they just cave in

ThePieintheSky

ian87 wrote: »

The nurse trying to wade through a health system bursting at the seams.

The teacher (myself) with a group of children well over the advised pupil teacher ratio sitting in front of me including 4 children who should be entitled to an SNA, one of whom has autism and was flat rejected last month. We are all overworked and underpaid.?

And why is that? Could it possibly be because so much money within the budgets of these departments is going toward wages and pensions?

Ghost Buster

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Yeah! And then, when we've fecked up their lives and reduced them to the breadline, we can start on all the other types of workers! This is gonna be great!

Theres a sound bite going round on radio which states that Irish teachers are the highest paid in Europe if not the world, have the shortest working year, get paid for paper correcting, supervision time etc etc which other teacher in other countries do not etc. IF this is true then yes, screw em. Nothing to do with public v Private or such. Just screw em for whining when they are being handsomely paid and rewarded.

TeddyTedson

Wasn't a teachers full pay a few years ago 60K or something. Then depending on your level of education it could have been more again. Not to mention the pension. Then being off half the year.

A lot of lazy people tend to become teachers I notice for the hours it seems.
Saying that however I had some great teachers who put a lot of their own time into their work, they were amazing. It was just a shame they were rare enough.

One of my teacher got "sick" for 3 weeks at the same time each year ffs. Everyone

christ on a bike!

Teachers make poor money, and it will never really get that high bar the small handful who become principals which is why they can't get paid a real pittance, as many would like.

Biggest issue in my opinion is that there is no city allowance or similar.
I have teacher friends in the country who were all able to buy houses, money goes a lot further. I have teacher friends in Dublin who are always broke, can only see their money getting worse and who need to leave if they ever want a decent standard of living

Duck's hoop

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Yes and what is the moral justification for the productive side of the economy being "tougher" than the side that takes the fruit of that production?

The private sector makes the money. Not the public sector.

Ok. So where were the private sector workers educated? On the moon?

Who do they call when there's a break in or an accident? Private ambulance or rent a cop?

Your post smells of ignorant pig shìt.

Gloomtastic!

wendell borton wrote: »

The teachers unions are a disgrace,they'll screw they're fellow teachers to keep ridiculous pensions. Young teachers coming into the job now get less pay and job security while those that got early retirement are on the pigs back.

Between 2008 -2012 pay for teachers -6%. Pensions for teachers +60%. Overall pay & pensions - 0.4% increase. Exchequer figures, absolute madness!!!!

christ on a bike!

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Wasn't a teachers full pay a few years ago 60K or something. Then depending on your level of education it could have been more again. Not to mention the pension. Then being off half the year.

A lot of lazy people tend to become teachers I notice for the hours it seems.
Saying that however I had some great teachers who put a lot of their own time into their work, they were amazing. It was just a shame they were rare enough.

One of my teacher got "sick" for 3 weeks at the same time each year ffs. Everyone

A teacher at the end of their career Teddy.
Teachers need pay rises at some stage if they ever want to reproduce!

But I agree there should be discipline against crap teachers, as do good teachers

the_monkey

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Sometimes I think i'd like to return home because I miss it.


But then I think do I want to pay half my salary to pay for overpaid, and under worked "job for life", sense of entitlement, unproductive civil and public servants? And I think - "no".

P.S I don't mean the new teachers who were screwed by the trade unions dominated by older teachers. I get their anger.

Yeah, cos living in the UAE where they treat women like dogs must be great !

ThePieintheSky

the_monkey wrote: »

Yeah, cos living in the UAE where they treat women like dogs must be great !

Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home. As so many other countries around the world are run properly not like home.

P.S remember how the rest of the world looked upon Ireland as a bunch of savages when that Indian woman died in hospital in Galway? The moral being don't judge somewhere you know nothing about!

ShagNastii

I've no real comment on the worth of teachers.

But I have to say I always feel sorry for entrance level civil servants getting shafted because of older union members wanting to save their crust.

My friend is a junior doctor and the deal for consultants was to keep what they have but to set a wage cap on new regs and consultants. Take about sh*tting all over your colleagues.

CruelCoin

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Yeah! And then, when we've fecked up their lives and reduced them to the breadline, we can start on all the other types of workers! This is gonna be great!

What breadline?

They are the highest paid in the developed world, along with working one of the shortest teaching years in the developed world.

Not to mention bonuses in the form of supervision, etc, which most teachers in other countries in the developed world don't get.

They have a very, very long way to fall to get anywhere near the breadline.

nelly17

The next time you are dropping a kid off to school take a look at the cars parked at the school - the days of the teacher driving a clapped out banger are well and truely gone.

copeyhagen

hfallada wrote: »

But yet they won't cut the ridculous wages in semi state companies eg the average wage in ESB is twice the average industrial wage.

i can assure you that i have never met anyone on any sort of substantial wage, in fact, everyone that started in the last 8 years or there abouts are on a fairly low wage.. i would like to meet these employees that are on hundreds of thousands to balance out our wages.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

10 pages 5 bannings and a lock.

Lord TSC

I'm not sure if this topic even knows how it wants to bash teachers, but I'll respond anyway.

As a young teacher who relies entirely on sub-work, I was thrilled ASTI turned down the HR agreement. There seems to be this misconception that by turning down the HR agreement, the ASTI have damaged young teachers again. The media and government seem to be trying to build the HR agreement as one that helps young teachers, and that by declining it, jobs will now be targeted.

But the truth is that had ASTI accepted HR agreement, there'd have been a lot of job cuts anyway, in lieu of the fact the majority of young teachers would see the vast majority of their hours redeployed and destroyed. The idea that young teachers will get better conditions gloss over the fact the agreement makes it infinity harder to get into schools in the first place.

If people want an agreement where teachers are reviewed and the money is cut by targeting "bad" teachers, there wouldn't be much fight back against it, despite the fact such a review would likely cost as much money as it would save. But on a personal level, the HR agreement that the ASTI are fighting against only serves to destroy the progression of the profession by chasing what few young teachers are left away out the door.

If people have any value in education, they should realise that the HR agreement will only serve to damage the education sector in the short AND long run. It's not about wages (because ironically, I find that those who were afraid for their money simply accepted the deal); the rejection of HR is about preventing the education sector from being eroded away any more in the name of "budget cuts" which, in reality, are often public pleasing measures in an attempt to look good to the anti-teacher brigade.

jmcc

This could get interesting fast. I wonder will this politicise more teachers and have them running for the Dail and local elections? For some strange reason (probably the holidays and the sabbaticals) the Dail is infested with teachers. It is the most popular profession of those in the Dail. With most people struggling to just to pay bills, I think that Quinn will get more sympathy from the public on this one.

Regards...jmcc

joela

Whatever about how well paid they are the lack of disciplinary procedures and proper CPD system is my biggest problem with teachers. As a parent of 3 primary school children I take great issue with having no proper transparent system in place to evaluate teaching performance, sanction underperforming teachers and to have proper investigations into parental or other complaints. Is there any other profession where underperforming staff would be left unchallenged, where proper quality systems would not be in place, where you can get promoted to a managerial position with no managerial training or expertise and where CPD is not properly implemented?

I have had truly wonderful and dedicated teachers who teach my children but unfortunately they are not the norm in my experience. Most teachers are uninspiring in the classroom, lazy in their approach to the curriculum, poorly managed by the principal, do not seem to adhere to any of the codes of best practice, moan a lot about how difficult their lot is and will not engage with parents. There is a prevailing attitude of closing ranks if a teacher is questioned much like the unions are behaving now. Sorry but very little sympathy for the teachers, a shake up is due and teachers should be rewarded based on performance like the rest of the world.

leonidas83

This argument concerning class sizes is nonsense, there's a lot of countries with larger classroom sizes than our own with teachers on average achieving far superior results & standards. This a typical excuse from teachers when trying to excuse the fact that our numeracy & literacy levels are falling.

We have one of the most generous pay rates & pensions across the EU for teachers, they have also some of the longest holiday entitlements.

Its madness in a country with nearly 15% unemployment, a GDP level that's falling year on year & budget deficit of nearly -15 billion p.a. that our budget for education is nearly all going on teachers wages. Close to 70%.

In my opinion the Haddington road agreement didn't go far enough, their wages should be cut much further & this incremental wage system should be got rid of across the public sector. A performance related wage system should be introduced across the board so at least that way there's an incentive for teacher's etc. to perform.

There was a time & its still the case in a lot of countries that being a teacher was considered a vocation & the fact they had security of employment was reflected in their wages in comparison to the private sector.

It's sad for the future of this country that the very people tasked with educating our young are setting an example of being one of the most self serving/self entitled parasites any country in our position could wish for.

ThePieintheSky

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's not about wages (because ironically, I find that those who were afraid for their money simply accepted the deal); the rejection of HR is about preventing the education sector from being eroded away any more in the name of "budget cuts" which, in reality, are often public pleasing measures in an attempt to look good to the anti-teacher brigade.

But IT IS about wages whether you like it or not for the simple fact that the vast bulk of the budget goes in wages and pensions. This is the problem. The only way to address that problem is to cut core pay, conditions and numbers to the European norm and at the same time redress the balance between infrastructure spending and pay.

Geomy

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

About time in my opinion. Just want to give my full support to Minister Quinn.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/quinn-says-teachers-will-lose-protection-against-compulsory-redundancies-1.1538885





Protected and overpaid. They don't know the cushy number they had. They should apply this to the whole public service in Ireland too.

What happens if you end up with a job in the public service ?

Frank Black

Teachers feel they have taken enough cuts already, so for me the solution is obvious.
We should be increasing taxes on those working or alternatively increasing our borrowing requirement to ensure that teachers pay and conditions are maintained.
I know some might say they work in a profession where the chances of being made redundant are zero, where gold plated pensions are guaranteed, where you get 3 months off in the summer, where you are amongst the best paid members of your profession in Europe in a country which needs to borrow a billion a month just to stay solvent.
But that’s not important – the teachers feel they have taken enough cuts, and it’s incumbent on the rest of us to listen and give into their demands.

Leroy42

They mentioned on PT last night that it was not about pay, it was about the education of the children. Always a good emotive point to make but I cannot see how accepting, or indeed rejecting, this deal has any impact on education.

I would have thought that the unions would have got an agreement that any cost savings due to HR would be put back into education(school buildings, SNA etc), but I haven't seen that.

So it does seem that this really is about money. The ASTI are basically saying that enough is enough. A previous poster said that the lot of new teachers was very bad compared to senior teachers. Isn't that an arguement for within the ASTI rather than the government?

I am just struggling to find the reason for this. While HR is of course leaving many in a worse position, it really is designed and delivered less worse than could have happened.

Lord TSC

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

The only way to address that problem is to cut core pay, conditions and numbers to the European norm and at the same time redress the balance between infrastructure spending and pay.

Then let's ask the government to target the high earners and the big pensions. Let's ask them to target the bad teachers or work out a set of solutions that actually reduce these things.

But let's not give out about "paid holidays, short working hours, spoiled teachers in guaranteed jobs" by fighting for an agreement which asks them to do 5 extra classes a week and utterly devastated the young teachers (who are not paid for the summer if they are lucky to have a job, demand wages of half what the older teachers do and who will work 10 times harder to get to those positions).

The HR deal addresses your issues in the same way you deal with a sore finger by hacking off your leg.

SeventySix

What are ASTI willing to compromise on? So far I havent heard anything that they would accept? Has anyone? Given that every other union has accepted the deal, they must know that they will have to compromise, they have backed themselves in to a corner.

I think that all in all the system for teachers is a shambles. They really should be stoppping entry to the HDip, except for subjects that are actually needed. Its ridiculous in a way how they new teaching graduates, with subjects like English and History, feel like they are entitled to jobs, just because they have trained, when its their own bad subject choice that leaves them in that situation of being surplus to requirements.

20Cent

Just going to drop a few facts in here:

http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/why-do-we-hate-teachers/

Irish education manages to graduate more of those who start education (89%) than the OECD/EU average 83/84
A second level education in Ireland pays off. For a man it has a lifetime present value of $142k , for a woman $118. The oecd averages are $100 and $69
We spend more per student per annum at second level, $11k than the OECD or EU average $9k. Looking at this in terms of GDP per capita the discrepancy is less : 28% v 26% for the OECD/EU
We spend less on (primary and secondary) education – 7.4% – as proportion of total government expenditure than the OECD or EU – 8.6% and 7.6%
Total current spending including all wages (94% of all spending) is slightly higher than the OECD and EU averages (92%)
Salary costs per student per annum are $3800, compared to OECD average of 3400. In per capital terms its less of a discrepancy, 10.3% vs 10%
Irish teachers, compared to other tertiary educated workers, earn 82% of average salary. This is less than the EU or OECD average of 89%.
Irish teachers spend more time, net, teaching (735h) than the OECD or EU average ( 686h, 650h) .

WIZE

Hi All,

Just a few questions.

How much does the average secondary school teacher earn per year and what is the weeks hours worked.

the_syco

baldbear wrote: »

The teachers need to get real. Extra money for supervision? Thats crazy. I know loads of young unemployed teachers who would love thee guys jobs.

Would said unemployed teachers supervise for free, as well as whatever few hours? Don't forget; the break times you get by law are the ones you want the teachers not to have, and to give up said break times for free.

TeddyTedson wrote: »

The private sector is obviously tougher.

You'll see the odd thread about employers wanting their employees to do unpaid overtime. For teachers, unpaid overtime (correcting homework) is part of the job!

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

The private sector makes the money. Not the public sector.

The sh|ttier the public sector is, the less chance the private sector has.

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home.

At least we call the slaves jobs bridge, and don't take their passports...

ShagNastii wrote: »

My friend is a junior doctor

Poor bastard. Is the gubbernment still making them work multiple shifts without a break?

CruelCoin wrote: »

breadline.

How much are the general facilities in the other countries? Shelter, food, etc? Is it as expensive as here?

leonidas83 wrote: »

This argument concerning class sizes is nonsense, there's a lot of countries with larger classroom sizes than our own with teachers on average achieving far superior results & standards. This a typical excuse from teachers when trying to excuse the fact that our numeracy & literacy levels are falling.

Could you list the countries and their class sizes, please?

Shiraz 4.99

wendell borton wrote: »

The teachers unions are a disgrace,they'll screw they're fellow teachers to keep ridiculous pensions. Young teachers coming into the job now get less pay and job security while those that got early retirement are on the pigs back.

There you have it in a nutshell, the whole profession & their unions should be ashamed at what they did by sacrificing new entrants conditions to protect the bloated wages & pensions of existing members.
This was disgusting they reap what they sow.

My sympathy dial is set to zero on this matter.

SpaceTime

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home. As so many other countries around the world are run properly not like home.

P.S remember how the rest of the world looked upon Ireland as a bunch of savages when that Indian woman died in hospital in Galway? The moral being don't judge somewhere you know nothing about!

Yeah, Ireland has an issue with abortion laws.
Women's rights are generally extremely strong other than that one area which is pretty ridiculous and was created by referenda, not some kind of dictatorship and could be undone by the same process.

However, Ireland is not a very slightly dressed up absolute monarchy, which the UAE is. Ireland is a liberal democracy. It does not have extreme censorship and ranks very highly on the press freedom index. It has scored at the very top (#1) on the Human Development Index and currently sits at #7, where as the UAE is 42.

Being gay is not a criminal offence in Ireland punishable by severe penalties. In fact, your rights are protected and you can even effectively marry (well form a civil partnership with gay marriage quite likely to happen soon pending a referendum).

We do not have a widespread issue with indentured slaves and have generally quite excellent labour laws protecting people.

I could go on.

If you think the UAE's so great, you're living in a very privileged, liberal bubble in the middle of what is otherwise not a very liberal state for anyone other than those in the 'clique'!

Ireland's also not an oil-wealthy state. It has to make money out of trading! They just happen to be lucky enough to have been sitting on top of 98 billion barrels of oil. 40% of UAE GDP is based DIRECTLY on selling gas and oil and then you could count another huge % as spin off effects of that.

With that kind of wealth, it would be very difficult to have any kind of economic crisis without really going out of your way.

Your comparison is totally ridiculous.

...

If you want to make a critique of Ireland, I would suggest maybe compare with Finland or Denmark for example.
New Zealand's also a reasonable comparison.

ThePieintheSky

SpaceTime wrote: »

If you think the UAE's so great, you're living in a bubble!

Ireland's also not an oil-wealthy state. It has to make money out of trading!

Your comparison is totally ridiculous.

I wasn't comparing. I didn't bring it up.

I am aware of the issues. But trust me when I say it's best for an outsider to keep one's mouth shut. Not my country, not my business. I am not interfered with in any way so it really does not bother me. And it's a lot more liberal in any case than you seem to suggest from my experience.

ThePieintheSky

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Then let's ask the government to target the high earners and the big pensions...

...to keep over paid public and civil servants in jobs? How would you feel if you were a private sector taxpayer?

The high earners thing is bull**** anyway. Even if you taxed them 100% to placate your begrudgery and your thinking that they owe everyone else because they are wealthy it wouldn't make any dent in the economic situation of this country. And they would rightly leave in any case.

duchalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePieintheSky
Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home. As so many other countries around the world are run properly not like home.

Haha! thats a good one! The UAE, where a teachers salary is decided by the colour of their skin....

EazyD

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

There you have it in a nutshell, the whole profession & their unions should be ashamed at what they did by sacrificing new entrants conditions to protect the bloated wages & pensions of existing members.
This was disgusting they reap what they sow.

My sympathy dial is set to zero on this matter.

This train of thought can be extended among many public sector positions. I'd be damn surprised if anyone within these unions actually questioned the conditions ruling, it's just easier to be a spineless twerp with pals/connections securing your own nest.

SpaceTime

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en

Good comparison table

ThePieintheSky

duchalla wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePieintheSky
Ah but you see this country is run properly not like at home. As so many other countries around the world are run properly not like home.

Haha! thats a good one! The UAE, where a teachers salary is decided by the colour of their skin....

Of course there are issues here (and I never said anything about how great the place is either to previous poster - don't know where that is coming from) but

At least here you don't see scumbags or junkies roaming the streets.

You don't feel threatened going in to town.

You don't see drunks and druggies taking up the A&E's frightening old people.

They don't have ****e roads.

They don't punish people with tax.

The place is clean. Really clean.

Everything is well maintained.

No graffiti anywhere.

They don't reward people for sitting on their arse as in welfare at home.

Great weather.

Great food.

Great service.

Great hospitality.

...

And these people are backward are they? A lot of things are done far better here than in Ireland I have to say.

SpaceTime

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

I wasn't comparing. I didn't bring it up.

I am aware of the issues. But trust me when I say it's best for an outsider to keep one's mouth shut. Not my country, not my business. I am not interfered with in any way so it really does not bother me. And it's a lot more liberal in any case than you seem to suggest from my experience.

That's because your experience is rather limited to certain circles I would suspect.

SpaceTime

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Of course there are issues here (and I never said anything about how great the place is either to previous poster - don't know where that is coming from) but

At least here you don't see scumbags or junkies roaming the streets.

You don't feel threatened going in to town.

You don't see drunks and druggies taking up the A&E's frightening old people.

They don't have ****e roads.

They don't punish people with tax.

The place is clean. Really clean.

Everything is well maintained.

No graffiti anywhere.

They don't reward people for sitting on their arse as in welfare at home.

Great weather.

Great food.

Great service.

Great hospitality.

...

And these people are backward are they? A lot of things are done far better here than in Ireland I have to say.

Again : extreme oil wealth and a serious lack of democracy will make that kind of thing easier to do then having to deal with things like giving people you may not necessarily like human rights, freedom, due process etc etc.

Democracy and liberal societies have a little more chaos.

Gerry T

How much do teachers get paid anyway ?
Any teachers on or know of a teacher friend and what they get ? No point in saying they are over/under paid for the work they do unless its known what they get.
I'm sure must primary & secondary school teachers know the advantages of their job. No assessments, work as hard as they choose, short hours and fantastic annual leave, secure pension & Job. But that has to be set against the salary ?

SpaceTime

Gerry T wrote: »

How much do teachers get paid anyway ?
Any teachers on or know of a teacher friend and what they get ? No point in saying they are over/under paid for the work they do unless its known what they get.
I'm sure must primary & secondary school teachers know the advantages of their job. No assessments, work as hard as they choose, short hours and fantastic annual leave, secure pension & Job. But that has to be set against the salary ?

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en