No more fire-arms training for armed gardai....

tayto lover · 18-09-2013 11:04PM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

They're not being trained as marksmen (and women), once or twice a year is enough to keep up your skills.

Unlike the DF the guards don't have a vast array of weapons so I can't imagine why they'd need to go to one firearms training unit.

After initial recruit training a soldier in the DF can be prepared for their annual range practice by any NCO and tested by a range manager or officer ~ no one gets a red cent more in the pay for this, and the weapons we use (even at section level) are many, many times more powerful than anything AGS use.

Jesus. You should have informed the Govt and their friend the Garda Commissioner years ago !!!
Look at all the money they would have saved.

Wibbs · 18-09-2013 11:10PM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

They're not being trained as marksmen (and women), once or twice a year is enough to keep up your skills.

It goes without saying you're talking with actual real on the ground knowledge of this stuff, but with handguns especially would that not require more hands on training? IE I'd be ok with a rifle type firearm and could hit what I was aiming at most of the time, but on the few occasions I've had the chance to fire handguns(not in Ireland) that went all to shít*. Even relatively large targets close by were a bit of a hit and miss(no pun). Yet I watched people who weren't the epitome of hand eye coordination, but who had practice be very much better than my attempts.

TL;DR? unlike in the flics handguns are not easy to shoot accurately with. That's my humble mind you.

*For me it seemed to depend on the pistol involved though. Bang up to date modern nine millie, I was crap, but for some reason with an early 20th century Muaser C98 I was splatting the bullseye 9 times outa 10. So for future ref M, if I'm coming at you with a Glock or a Sig, feel free to dance in front of me with your tongue out, but if I show up with an antique, run and run far.

Chancer3001 · 18-09-2013 11:12PM

My god the amount of people suggesting they should just potter down and target practice themselves is amazing.

Sure go on there on your day off and go shoot. Don't worry about any of the stuff you have to do in your own life, or the money it would cost to get you there, just barrel on.

Idiotic.

If we a going to have an armed unit. They need to be trained properly and regularly and equipped properly.

kowloon · 18-09-2013 11:17PM

phasers wrote: »

Could the lads who are already trained not just train the new guys? Or like give them an xbox and a few hours on Halo?

All the criminals are getting GTA V for their training, and yet the Gardai are stuck with virtua cop with some smaller stations still training with duck hunt. Ridiculous. :mad:

arybvtcw0eolkf · 19-09-2013 12:00AM

Wibbs wrote: »

It goes without saying you're talking with actual real on the ground knowledge of this stuff, but with handguns especially would that not require more hands on training? IE I'd be ok with a rifle type firearm and could hit what I was aiming at most of the time, but on the few occasions I've had the chance to fire handguns(not in Ireland) that went all to shít*. Even relatively large targets close by were a bit of a hit and miss(no pun). Yet I watched people who weren't the epitome of hand eye coordination, but who had practice be very much better than my attempts.

TL;DR? unlike in the flics handguns are not easy to shoot accurately with. That's my humble mind you.

Handguns are (mostly) horribly inaccurate but comparing range practice between civilians and AGS/DF is like comparing apples and oranges.

After your initial basic training on the weapon its really not that difficult to maintain a good standard of marksmanship.

BattleCorp · 19-09-2013 02:24PM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

Handguns are (mostly) horribly inaccurate but comparing range practice between civilians and AGS/DF is like comparing apples and oranges.

After your initial basic training on the weapon its really not that difficult to maintain a good standard of marksmanship.

It still takes more than one trip to the range a year to keep up a good standard of marksmanship.

In a hostage situation, if a criminal had a gun to my head, I'd prefer that the Gardai were a little more practiced with their firearms than one trip per year to the range.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 19-09-2013 10:50PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

It still takes more than one trip to the range a year to keep up a good standard of marksmanship.

In a hostage situation, if a criminal had a gun to my head, I'd prefer that the Gardai were a little more practiced with their firearms than one trip per year to the range.

Seriously now you've watched too many Die Hard movies, if someone has a good to your head you're pretty much f*cked.

donvito99 · 19-09-2013 10:56PM

Do armed Gardaí receive personally issued weapons? If NOT, then pootering off to the range on your day off becomes difficult.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 19-09-2013 11:26PM

donvito99 wrote: »

Do armed Gardaí receive personally issued weapons? If NOT, then pootering off to the range on your day off becomes difficult.

Not for the air softers who know it all

claypigeon777 · 19-09-2013 11:27PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

How often they get to draw their guns in the line of fire is irrelevant. Yes, it's not as often as in other jurisdictions, but I'd still like to know that the guys with the guns are well trained.

If I'm being held hostage, I wouldn't fancy one cop asking another cop how the gun works. One day a year at the range is pants.

If they aren't training to shoot the gun at least a few times a month then they shouldn't be carrying them.
If they can't place their shots inside the chest area of a human sized target. with a handgun then they might as well be throwing lit matches.
A d*ckhead criminal is not going to be competent with a gun - most gangland hits are at a few inches when a guy blasts some other guy through the head with a handgun when he's looking the other way.
If a policeman is confronted by a criminal who is haphazardly blazing away at him he is not likely to be hit but members of the public are when stray shots could strike people hundreds of meters away.
From what I have read all police forces and military forces all over the world train shooters to put their bullets in the center mass - the upper torso.
To do that properly without the chance of stray shots also hitting an innocent joe public policemen need the training.

Elite police force units like SWAT and elite military units like the SAS or Delta Force train every single day for multiple scenarios - hijackings of airliners, hostage situations in buildings, bank robberies etc. etc. As a result their reflexes, their ability to think under pressure and fire accurately are razor sharp but if they stop training for a few months their training is lost the same way champion sprinter or footballer has to retrain all over again after an injury.

So you can imagine how much a Garda's limited amount of training would also start to decline if he/she has not fired their weapon on the range for too long.

If an armed situation arose and armed Gardaí needed to respond the public will be endangered.

MadsL · 19-09-2013 11:59PM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

They're not being trained as marksmen (and women), once or twice a year is enough to keep up your skills.

Unlike the DF the guards don't have a vast array of weapons so I can't imagine why they'd need to go to one firearms training unit.

After initial recruit training a soldier in the DF can be prepared for their annual range practice by any NCO and tested by a range manager or officer ~ no one gets a red cent more in the pay for this, and the weapons we use (even at section level) are many, many times more powerful than anything AGS use.

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

Handguns are (mostly) horribly inaccurate but comparing range practice between civilians and AGS/DF is like comparing apples and oranges.

After your initial basic training on the weapon its really not that difficult to maintain a good standard of marksmanship.

Cassandra Puny Gauge, do you shoot handguns much? I do, and if I'm not at the range regularly, my marksmanship goes to hell.

I really think we want AGS ARU very, very well trained.

I'm not sure what a box of 9mm goes for in Ireland but here I'm paying $22 a box, that would add up considerably if they were doing their own practice on their own time. Is there even an indoor range in Dublin?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 20-09-2013 12:27AM

MadsL wrote: »

Makikomi, do you shoot handguns much? I do, and if I'm not at the range regularly, my marksmanship goes to hell.

I really think we want AGS ARU very, very well trained.

I'm not sure what a box of 9mm goes for in Ireland but here I'm paying $22 a box, that would add up considerably if they were doing their own practice on their own time. Is there even an indoor range in Dublin?

Have you got a solid background on your weapon and know the theory of smallarms fire and marksmanship?.

Obviously practice makes perfect and units training for competition will make sure their lads will get more range practice than other pers, but with a solid grounds and good training its really not that difficult to maintain good scores on the range.

But getting back on topic, as SFP said ~ if the cops wanted to go to the ranges they can, but because they're not getting Sub allowance for it they choose not to.. Tough sh*t batman, in the army you do as you're told and thts what SFP and used to.

Pappa Charlie · 20-09-2013 09:40AM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

Handguns are (mostly) horribly inaccurate but comparing range practice between civilians and AGS/DF is like comparing apples and oranges.

After your initial basic training on the weapon its really not that difficult to maintain a good standard of marksmanship.

What a load of baloney! I'm amazed at a member of the defence forces coming out with that tripe, AGS are tasked with using firearms in the context of dealing with members of the public in this country and the government should be spare no resources in doing so and having it right. Regular training in any weapon they are tasked with carrying is essential for everyone! its life or death situations we are talking about when these situations arise for all concerned, AGS are the people who actually have to fire weapons in real situations in this country, when was the last time the DF fired a weapon in this country to defend people. DF can play soldiers all day long in their barracks, Gardaí have other matters to attend to such as dealing with everyday policing matters as well as firearms training, you're problem is that you resent the fact that they get paid more than you!!!

TheDoc · 20-09-2013 10:42AM

Aslong as range facilities are available for officers to practice and run drills, there is no major issue here. I think it's worth getting distinction between "course" and "training".

If the SDU "trained" three times a year, then its a disgrace and there is no way an officer could be efficent and effective with his firearm with three training sessions a year.

However courses are different. Courses could be outlining new methods or tactics in terms of dealing with situations, reviewing new firearms and their operation etc. As the article says, the MP7 (more concerning in that story is the cancellation of this) has also being cancelled, so possible the assosiated course for it is also cancelled. Which if so, this is a big story about nothing.

I would iamgine our armed guards are free to personal train and practice as they fit it, or have regulated training they need to attend, on a regular basis.

I think there needs to be understanding between "courses" and "training" which is a big differece and alot of people misinterpreting here, and blowing a nothing story out of proportion.

Frosty McSnowballs · 20-09-2013 01:30PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

What a load of baloney! I'm amazed at a member of the defence forces coming out with that tripe, AGS are tasked with using firearms in the context of dealing with members of the public in this country and the government should be spare no resources in doing so and having it right. Regular training in any weapon they are tasked with carrying is essential for everyone! its life or death situations we are talking about when these situations arise for all concerned, AGS are the people who actually have to fire weapons in real situations in this country, when was the last time the DF fired a weapon in this country to defend people. DF can play soldiers all day long in their barracks, Gardaí have other matters to attend to such as dealing with everyday policing matters as well as firearms training, you're problem is that you resent the fact that they get paid more than you!!!

Do you have the need to fire a weapon of any sort? Speaking from experience.....if I only shoot 3 times a year it will only take me less than 20 rounds to be able to zero the weapon and fire effective shots.

You don't need to train everyday or every week no matter what function you have on a daily basis.

The cops can still go to the range and fire...irrespective of allowances. That's the real issue here. They won't seem to go though.

I'm sure they do get better paid than myself and Makkikomi but that is a non issue.

Pappa Charlie · 20-09-2013 01:56PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Do you have the need to fire a weapon of any sort? Speaking from experience.....if I only shoot 3 times a year it will only take me less than 20 rounds to be able to zero the weapon and fire effective shots.

You don't need to train everyday or every week no matter what function you have on a daily basis.

The cops can still go to the range and fire...irrespective of allowances. That's the real issue here. They won't seem to go though.

I'm sure they do get better paid than myself and Makkikomi but that is a non issue.

Yeah! Police officers normally get the opportunity to fire off 20 rounds and zero in before they engage the guy who's trying to kill them or a member of the public, I have done firearms training and anyone who has or most who haven't know you can't do enough of it. Pay is not a non issue, if you owe people for the work they do you pay them and that goes for any walk of life!!!

Frosty McSnowballs · 20-09-2013 02:57PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Yeah! Police officers normally get the opportunity to fire off 20 rounds and zero in before they engage the guy who's trying to kill them or a member of the public, I have done firearms training and anyone who has or most who haven't know you can't do enough of it. Pay is not a non issue, if you owe people for the work they do you pay them!!!

Don't let your anger transpire into silly posts.

The article states that they already only need to fire 3 times a year to qualify to carry a weapon.

My point states that even with only 3 range days you can still have an effective shot if needed. Now on the other hand, some people just can't shoot no matter how many range days they get.

Iv been shooting for 16 years, anything from 9mm all the way up to 0.5 and 84mm and have retained a very good quality and consistency of shooting, despite not firing every week. Maybe you
Have been firing longer than me but not not everyone loses their ability to shoot accurately.

Anyway back on topic and purely dealing with the article.....it seems AGS have the ammo, instructors, students and facilities to conduct range days.....they lack the funds for travel and instructor allowances. So the facts are THEY CAN GO TO THE RANGE but seem to choose not to.

Pappa Charlie · 20-09-2013 04:22PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Don't let your anger transpire into silly posts.

The article states that they already only need to fire 3 times a year to qualify to carry a weapon.

My point states that even with only 3 range days you can still have an effective shot if needed. Now on the other hand, some people just can't shoot no matter how many range days they get.

Iv been shooting for 16 years, anything from 9mm all the way up to 0.5 and 84mm and have retained a very good quality and consistency of shooting, despite not firing every week. Maybe you
Have been firing longer than me but not not everyone loses their ability to shoot accurately.

Anyway back on topic and purely dealing with the article.....it seems AGS have the ammo, instructors, students and facilities to conduct range days.....they lack the funds for travel and instructor allowances. So the facts are THEY CAN GO TO THE RANGE but seem to choose not to.

Maybe the government t are afraid we'll start claiming for deafness!

Reindeer · 20-09-2013 04:26PM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

Have you got a solid background on your weapon and know the theory of smallarms fire and marksmanship?.

Obviously practice makes perfect and units training for competition will make sure their lads will get more range practice than other pers, but with a solid grounds and good training its really not that difficult to maintain good scores on the range.

But getting back on topic, as SFP said ~ if the cops wanted to go to the ranges they can, but because they're not getting Sub allowance for it they choose not to.. Tough sh*t batman, in the army you do as you're told and thts what SFP and used to.

The police in the states, many of which have grown up with firearms experience, have a hit ratio of 12% according to the FBI. That's seven out of eight shots flying wild in an urban shooting situation. US Police departments usually require quarterly or bi-annual qualifying, and officers often train outside of that on their own time and dime(it's fairly cheap to do so in the US). I don't know where you guys are going to get the money to train your armed officers, but I do know that twice a year isn't enough unless these guys have some serious natural talent, or you mostly want to have them as a deterrent VS an efficient armed police force.

I have 36 years of handgun experience myself, and have been in more than a few combat matches(IDPA mostly and some club events). I have used a handgun to deter criminals face to face, and have used one for hunting extensively. I have seen seasoned military and law enforcement officers make the most basic mistakes during competition, from fumbling guns, to missing reloads, to not removing the safety to fire, to not loading their weapons before trying to fire them, to not hitting anything at all, etc. Though competition can be stressful(and they try their best to make it so), it is nothing like having a gun pointed at you or being in a real world situation. Two times a year with a baton and learning subduing techniques hand-to-hand wouldn't cut it. Why would it cut it with a firearm?

MadsL · 20-09-2013 04:36PM

Reindeer wrote: »

The police in the states, many of which have grown up with firearms experience, have a hit ratio of 12% according to the FBI. That's seven out of eight shots flying wild in an urban shooting situation. US Police departments usually require quarterly or bi-annual qualifying, and officers often train outside of that on their own time and dime(it's fairly cheap to do so in the US). I don't know where you guys are going to get the money to train your armed officers, but I do know that twice a year isn't enough unless these guys have some serious natural talent, or you mostly want to have them as a deterrent VS an efficient armed police force.

I have 36 years of handgun experience myself, and have been in more than a few combat matches(IDPA mostly and some club events). I have used a handgun to deter criminals face to face, and have used one for hunting extensively. I have seen seasoned military and law enforcement officers make the most basic mistakes during competition, from fumbling guns, to missing reloads, to not removing the safety to fire, to not loading their weapons before trying to fire them, to not hitting anything at all, etc. Though competition can be stressful(and they try their best to make it so), it is nothing like having a gun pointed at you or being in a real world situation. Two times a year with a baton and learning subduing techniques hand-to-hand wouldn't cut it. Why would it cut it with a firearm?

Do Irish police even train IDPA style? All the talk here has been of marksmanship, not moving through a course of fire.

Here's some courses of fire for those unfamiliar http://www.nepaidpascores.net/cgi-bin/display_stages.pl

Or just picture Police Acadamy and Tackleberry.

ScumLord · 20-09-2013 04:39PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have done firearms training and anyone who has or most who haven't know you can't do enough of it.

While that's correct up to a point, I'd wonder how effective range training is for a police officer after a certain amount of time. The range will be absolutely nothing like the real world situations where they'd actually have to use their gun.

Pappa Charlie · 20-09-2013 04:46PM

ScumLord wrote: »

While that's correct up to a point, I'd wonder how effective range training is for a police officer after a certain amount of time. The range will be absolutely nothing like the real world situations where they'd actually have to use their gun.

I agree on the real world situation, you won't know how you will react untill it happens but as a famous golfer once said about his golf "the more I practice, the luckier I get".

MadsL · 20-09-2013 04:52PM

ScumLord wrote: »

While that's correct up to a point, I'd wonder how effective range training is for a police officer after a certain amount of time. The range will be absolutely nothing like the real world situations where they'd actually have to use their gun.

Depends on the range. IDPA type scenarios ae designed to be as real world as it is possible to get given cardboard targets.

Immersive simulators like this are very portable to bring around the country. Do the ARU or IDF train on anything like this?

ScumLord · 20-09-2013 04:59PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I agree on the real world situation, you won't know how you will react untill it happens but as a famous golfer once said about his golf "the more I practice, the luckier I get".

It can't hurt to practice.

These kind of course are usually brought in to protect the state or company which is what I find most unusual about them dropping it. It's not so much to prevent accidents as it is to remove any possible blame when accidents happen.
If there is an accident the state can say they gave training and did everything they could to ensure accidents don't happen. If it turns out the officer followed procedure and training then they can blame the procedures and training and promise to review them. End result the people at the top don't have to take any blame for anything.

If something happens between now and the end of the year and the officers training is out the state will be open to being sued in a big way.

Pappa Charlie · 20-09-2013 05:11PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It can't hurt to practice.

These kind of course are usually brought in to protect the state or company which is what I find most unusual about them dropping it. It's not so much to prevent accidents as it is to remove any possible blame when accidents happen.
If there is an accident the state can say they gave training and did everything they could to ensure accidents don't happen. If it turns out the officer followed procedure and training then they can blame the procedures and training and promise to review them. End result the people at the top don't have to take any blame for anything.

If something happens between now and the end of the year and the officers training is out the state will be open to being sued in a big way.

Precisely

Frosty McSnowballs · 20-09-2013 05:20PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Maybe the government t are afraid we'll start claiming for deafness!

Jaysis that old chestnut. you do realise that happened because of a government/DOD failure to provide hearing protection. Also, reprimanding and disciplining anyone who purchased and wore ear defenders because they were "non issue".....but it's ok, the DF still go ahead with stuff even though they don't get what they need or are entitled to....they still went to the range

Ok you are AGS and I'm DF. As a matter of balance on the shooting experience and allowances side of things.

You say you have had firearms training, well how much exactly and in what discipline? Have you instructed at all?

As I have stated, I have shot pistols, shotguns, assault rifles, sniper rifles, light/heavy machine guns, various anti tank weapons, mortars, grenade launchers. I know the importance of regular training. I know that it is not necessary to be on the range every week. I know that good instruction will stand to you especially since you do not get to the range enough.

I have trained hundreds of soldiers in the above weapons, it's by no means an easy job and neither would it be as an AGS weapons instructor. We have different applications for the weapons we use but the instruction would be similar I'd imagine.

We used to get an instructor allowance (very few of us), that has now been abolished....but we still go to the range. We still travel to and from the range in military transport, can AGS instructors not use AGS transport? Those few of us that do travel in civilian cars do not get travel allowance to do so.

If we can do it, why can't AGS?

MadsL wrote: »

Immersive simulators like this are very portable to bring around the country. Do the ARU or IDF train on anything like this?

Yeah we have them alright, Direct Indoor Range Theatres (DIRT).

ScumLord · 20-09-2013 05:24PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

We still travel to and from the range in military transport,

Well I think that more or less makes up for not being paid. Same for firemen, they get to ride in the fire truck.

Frosty McSnowballs · 20-09-2013 05:27PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Well I think that more or less makes up for not being paid. Same for firemen, they get to ride in the fire truck.

Ha not really man! Nothing glamorous about being in the back of an open back truck after getting pissed on up at the range

now, if we had a load of hummers..maybe!

But yeah, lucky firemen bastards!

Pappa Charlie · 20-09-2013 06:22PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Jaysis that old chestnut. you do realise that happened because of a government/DOD failure to provide hearing protection. Also, reprimanding and disciplining anyone who purchased and wore ear defenders because they were "non issue".....but it's ok, the DF still go ahead with stuff even though they don't get what they need or are entitled to....they still went to the range

Ok you are AGS and I'm DF. As a matter of balance on the shooting experience and allowances side of things.

You say you have had firearms training, well how much exactly and in what discipline? Have you instructed at all?

As I have stated, I have shot pistols, shotguns, assault rifles, sniper rifles, light/heavy machine guns, various anti tank weapons, mortars, grenade launchers. I know the importance of regular training. I know that it is not necessary to be on the range every week. I know that good instruction will stand to you especially since you do not get to the range enough.

I have trained hundreds of soldiers in the above weapons, it's by no means an easy job and neither would it be as an AGS weapons instructor. We have different applications for the weapons we use but the instruction would be similar I'd imagine.

We used to get an instructor allowance (very few of us), that has now been abolished....but we still go to the range. We still travel to and from the range in military transport, can AGS instructors not use AGS transport? Those few of us that do travel in civilian cars do not get travel allowance to do so.

If we can do it, why can't AGS?

Yeah we have them alright, Direct Indoor Range Theatres (DIRT).

I'm just an old Uzi and 38 man, I have no nuclear warefare training like yourself, but it's great to hear there are people like you around and the taxpayer is getting value for money, I played paintball once if that counts. Fair play to you for using your own car to travel to the range. I bet alan shatter was delighted, I'm sure he'd do the same if he was in your shoes,

tayto lover · 20-09-2013 06:57PM

Give over lads and stick to the thread before someone gets shot in the crossfire.

The point of the matter is that if you are required at training then you should be paid for it. It's not for yourself, it's for the job.

No more fire-arms training for armed gardai....

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