No more fire-arms training for armed gardai....

Paulzx · 17-09-2013 11:26PM

TommiesTank wrote: »

All the allowances are the real problem. The cost of the St Patrick's day trips and Dail bar are a fraction of the cost of these.

Gardai receive 235.76 different allowances each....fact. Some of them are so ridiculous it's unbelievable.

Did you know that Gardai that are originally from Dublin get an allowance because they have to speak like culchies during the course of their work?

The sham that told me this in the pub was told by his vet who was told by a Friesien heifer.

Frosty McSnowballs · 17-09-2013 11:30PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Which is for EXTRA hours worked.............not just a random few quid given for nothing

Oh so thats how overtime works :rolleyes:

Iv seen them turn up at ranges at 11 and be gone by 2.

Paulzx · 17-09-2013 11:32PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Oh so thats how overtime works :rolleyes:

Iv seen them turn up at ranges at 11 and be gone by 2.

Did you ask them were they on overtime?

BattleCorp · 17-09-2013 11:35PM

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-firearms-training-cancelled-due-to-cutbacks-29584501.html

It says in the above link that range work is being cut down to once a year.

I am a target shooter and I know damn well that once a year shooting isn't worth a crap if you want to be accurate. We shoot every single week and all we are shooting for is fun and maybe the odd competition or twenty.

They should be shooting at least once a month, absolute minimum as they are shooting to save lives.

No disrespect meant to the Gardaí, it's just my opinion that one day a year at the range won't make them any more accurate than a farmer that takes an odd shot now and again.

NuckingFacker · 17-09-2013 11:37PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-firearms-training-cancelled-due-to-cutbacks-29584501.html

It says in the above link that range work is being cut down to once a year.

I am a target shooter and I know damn well that once a year shooting isn't worth a crap if you want to be accurate. We shoot every single week and all we are shooting for is fun and maybe the odd competition or twenty. They should be shooting at least once a month, absolute minimum as they are shooting to save lives.

No disrespect meant to the Gardaí, it's just my opinion that one day a year at the range won't make them any more accurate than a farmer that takes an odd shot now and again.

They never get to shoot anything, it's ireland. If they stopped issuing ammunition, it would make feck all difference.

Frosty McSnowballs · 17-09-2013 11:42PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Did you ask them were they on overtime?

Oh yeah of course I did, just incase you asked me.

The point is. Just because there is no money in the kitty to pay an allowance. It doesn't mean you HAVE to stop training altogether.

Simple.

BattleCorp · 17-09-2013 11:44PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

They never get to shoot anything, it's ireland. If they stopped issuing ammunition, it would make feck all difference.

How often they get to draw their guns in the line of fire is irrelevant. Yes, it's not as often as in other jurisdictions, but I'd still like to know that the guys with the guns are well trained.

If I'm being held hostage, I wouldn't fancy one cop asking another cop how the gun works. One day a year at the range is pants.

Frosty McSnowballs · 17-09-2013 11:45PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-firearms-training-cancelled-due-to-cutbacks-29584501.html
It says in the above link that range work is being cut down to once a year.

No, it states that they are only required to attend one range day instead of three. Not that they are cutting it down to one.

BattleCorp · 17-09-2013 11:50PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

No, it states that they are only required to attend one range day instead of three. Not that they are cutting it down to one.

I am open to correction but I think 'required to attend one range day' and 'they only attend one range day' are the same thing.

If it's a cost saving exercise, they will hardly be allowed to go more than once seeing as it's being reduced from 'required to attend 3' to 'required to attend 1'.

Simply: The amount of range time required = the amount of times they will shoot.

NuckingFacker · 18-09-2013 12:00AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I am open to correction but I think 'required to attend one range day' and 'they only attend one range day' are the same thing.

If it's a cost saving exercise, they will hardly be allowed to go more than once seeing as it's being reduced from 'required to attend 3' to 'required to attend 1'.

Simply: The amount of range time required = the amount of times they will shoot.

which should pretty much be an end to it. They get to shoot feck all, both on active duty and in training. Seems like a good, healthy balance.

Frosty McSnowballs · 18-09-2013 12:01AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I am open to correction but I think 'required to attend one range day' and 'they only attend one range day' are the same thing.

If it's a cost saving exercise, they will hardly be allowed to go more than once seeing as it's being reduced from 'required to attend 3' to 'required to attend 1'.

Simply: The amount of range time required = the amount of times they will shoot.

I'm sure there are people that would be happy just to shoot the once and qualify to carry the weapon. I am also sure that if you want to fire again, you could.

It is most definitely a cost saving measure.

BattleCorp · 18-09-2013 12:03AM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

which should pretty much be an end to it. They get to shoot feck all, both on active duty and in training. Seems like a good, healthy balance.

How often you get to shoot in the line of duty doesn't really matter.

Lots of us do first aid training in the hope that we never have to use it.

BattleCorp · 18-09-2013 12:06AM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I'm sure there are people that would be happy just to shoot the once and qualify to carry the weapon. I am also sure that if you want to fire again, you could.

It is most definitely a cost saving measure.

I've no doubt that some of them might be happy to just shoot once and qualify to carry the firearm.

But that isn't good enough in my opinion. To be accurate with a firearm (and lets face it, what good is a firearm if you aren't accurate), you need to train and train often.

Once a year just doesn't cut it. When they have to draw their firearm in the line of duty, they aren't plinking at a bottle in a quarry, they are going to be involved in a life or death situation, and for that kind of situation, you need to be very very very well trained.

Frosty McSnowballs · 18-09-2013 12:09AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I've no doubt that some of them might be happy to just shoot once and qualify to carry the firearm.

But that isn't good enough in my opinion. To be accurate with a firearm (and lets face it, what good is a firearm if you aren't accurate), you need to train and train often.

Once a year just doesn't cut it. When they have to draw their firearm in the line of duty, they aren't plinking at a bottle in a quarry, they are going to be involved in a life or death situation, and for that kind of situation, you need to be very very very well trained.

I agree and I am familiar with the need to shoot regularly. But what is the alternative? There's no money to pay the allowance.

My suggestion is abolish the allowance (s) and use it to fund ammunition procurement. That should provide ammo and extra range days needed to have proficient weapon carriers.

Zebra3 · 18-09-2013 12:09AM

What's the problem?

Enough mongos voted at the last general election for parties to make cutbacks and bailout bondholders.

And here we are....

SimonQuinlank · 18-09-2013 12:30AM

The Indo and it's editor (coincidentally the former editor of Garda Review magazine) looking out for their mates as usual.

You'd think that rank and file Gardai not having basic resources available to them would be a bigger story than a small number of well paid members of a specialist unit having it's training budget cut for the remaining 4 months of the year.

MadsL · 18-09-2013 05:13AM

token101 wrote: »

They are hardly going to forget every single thing they've learned in four months now are they? They only train four times a year anyway? So they've cut one session basically? What a non story!

And ****ing hell, 're-sume'? Christ the Indo's cutting back too I'd say

Taking a break from target practice has a huge impact in your accuracy.

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Point, squint, squeeze, bang. FFS, it's not that hard to shoot a gun. How much training do they need? They never get to use the bleedin things anyway.

It is not hard to shoot a gun. It is hard to hit what you are aiming at with a gun, which you would know if you ever fired one.

They never get to use them until the critical moment when they do.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 18-09-2013 07:50AM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

My suggestion is abolish the allowance (s) and use it to fund ammunition procurement. That should provide ammo and extra range days needed to have proficient weapon carriers.

And maybe let regional firearms gardai train and TOET them, then train up range managers instead of having a dedicated firearms unit with instructors allowances plus sub ~ wait that sounds like 'da army!.

I don't understand why a cop should get paid to be armed, or to go to their annual range practice ~ jeeze I'd love to get a few quid for a few days up in Kilbride

Imagine that with us "Sorry sir there's no sub for the ranges?... I'm not going so"

"Erm Smith, get into the f*cking truck"... "yes sir".

Seaneh · 18-09-2013 07:57AM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

And maybe let regional firearms gardai train and TOET them, then train up range managers instead of having a dedicated firearms unit with instructors allowances plus sub ~ wait that sounds like 'da army!.

I don't understand why a cop should get paid to be armed, or to go to their annual range practice ~ jeeze I'd love to get a few quid for a few days up in Kilbride

Imagine that with us "Sorry sir there's no sub for the ranges?... I'm not going so"

"Erm Smith, get into the f*cking truck"... "yes sir".

Was chatting to my Auld lad about this last night and this was pretty much his reaction too.

knucklehead6 · 18-09-2013 08:09AM

i know that this is a fairly serious subject, but this

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

Imagine that with us "Sorry sir there's no sub for the ranges?... I'm not going so"

"Erm Smith, get into the f*cking truck"... "yes sir".

made me laugh

NuckingFacker · 18-09-2013 09:36PM

Cassandra Puny Gauge wrote: »

And maybe let regional firearms gardai train and TOET them, then train up range managers instead of having a dedicated firearms unit with instructors allowances plus sub ~ wait that sounds like 'da army!.

I don't understand why a cop should get paid to be armed, or to go to their annual range practice ~ jeeze I'd love to get a few quid for a few days up in Kilbride

Imagine that with us "Sorry sir there's no sub for the ranges?... I'm not going so"

"Erm Smith, get into the f*cking truck"... "yes sir".

I don't understand why they can't get certified then fcuk off and put in range time on their own. If shooting accurately and keeping in practice is a core job skill, they can join their local gun-club and use the range there - you know, sort of brushing up on their own skills, like people do in the private sector. If I want to acquire or perfect a new skill, or practice one, I get to schlep my azz to a facility and do so, on my own dime and own time. Or else do the practice during normal working hours at normal rates.

tayto lover · 18-09-2013 09:40PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Minister this Minister that. we can argue the comparisons all week long.

The simple fact is. They can still go to the range and train but they won't go because they are not getting overtime allowance.

If it is that important....then they would do it irrespective of overtime allowance.

Bulls***.
Anyone who works for feck all will never be idle.
The fact is it is very important for all citizens that they have training but you would rather defend your party.

Frosty McSnowballs · 18-09-2013 09:42PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Bulls***.
Anyone who works for feck all will never be idle.
The fact is it is very important for all citizens that they have training but you would rather defend your party.

Firstly, I have no party.

Secondly, they can still go to the range and fire but due to the lack of funds to pay the allowances.....they won't go to the range.

Simple, it's as straightforward as that.

tayto lover · 18-09-2013 09:47PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Firstly, I have no party.

Secondly, they can still go to the range and fire but due to the lack of funds to pay the allowances.....they won't go to the range.

Simple, it's as straightforward as that.

Exactly.
Why should they go if they don't get the allowance? They are right.
I won't go to meetings in places outside my town if I do not get expenses either.

Frosty McSnowballs · 18-09-2013 09:52PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly.
Why should they go if they don't get the allowance? They are right.
I won't go to meetings in places outside my town if I do not get expenses either.

Ha ok!

tayto lover · 18-09-2013 09:59PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Ha ok!

Exactly. Why shouldn't they get their allowances when the lads in the Dail are creaming it with theirs?

Frosty McSnowballs · 18-09-2013 10:06PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly. Why shouldn't they get their allowances when the lads in the Dail are creaming it with theirs?

Deal with the article and don't be comparing it to the Dail, that's such a cop out.

If you get held hostage, I hope a member of AGS turns up that had gone to the range despite not getting the allowance.

Best of luck now, I've no more to say. I can't be repeating myself to people that are outraged without paying attention to facts.

Bu-bye

tayto lover · 18-09-2013 10:08PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Deal with the article and don't be comparing it to the Dail, that's such a cop out.

If you get held hostage, I hope a member of AGS turns up that had gone to the range despite not getting the allowance.

Best of luck now, I've no more to say. I can't be repeating myself to people that are outraged without paying attention to facts.

Bu-bye

Why should they.
The cutbacks are only aimed at the ordinary people while that useless shower you defend cream it. Nuf said.

flutered · 18-09-2013 10:12PM

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Minister this Minister that. we can argue the comparisons all week long.

The simple fact is. They can still go to the range and train but they won't go because they are not getting overtime allowance.

If it is that important....then they would do it irrespective of overtime allowance.

expecting people to travel around the country, then stay and feed themselves on their own funds while educating others who are doing the same does not bode well for any course never mind a specialist one like fire arm instruction, i dunno about now but that course was always held in co. kilkenny.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 18-09-2013 10:58PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

I don't understand why they can't get certified then fcuk off and put in range time on their own. If shooting accurately and keeping in practice is a core job skill, they can join their local gun-club and use the range there - you know, sort of brushing up on their own skills, like people do in the private sector. If I want to acquire or perfect a new skill, or practice one, I get to schlep my azz to a facility and do so, on my own dime and own time. Or else do the practice during normal working hours at normal rates.

They're not being trained as marksmen (and women), once or twice a year is enough to keep up your skills.

Unlike the DF the guards don't have a vast array of weapons so I can't imagine why they'd need to go to one firearms training unit.

After initial recruit training a soldier in the DF can be prepared for their annual range practice by any NCO and tested by a range manager or officer ~ no one gets a red cent more in the pay for this, and the weapons we use (even at section level) are many, many times more powerful than anything AGS use.

No more fire-arms training for armed gardai....

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