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Rules Q: Ball lost in water hazard / provisional ball

  • 16-09-2013 01:15PM
    #1
    billy3sheets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭


    Matchplay competition
    Par 3, water front & right of green, yellow stakes.

    Player A tees off, clears water front, rolls off right side of green, possibly/probably into or past water on right.

    Player B - me - plays his shot (also into water but not relevant here).

    Player A then plays a provisional to centre of green. Both players and caddies search for Player A's ball all around the water to the right which lined by reeds. After 5 mins searching, all conclude that Player A's ball is lost in the water hazard.

    Player A then proceeds to play his 4th shot with his provisional ball.

    My question is:
    Is player A entitled to use his provisional ball instead of dropping beyond the water on the right and playing his 3rd shot from there?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    realgolfgeek
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 904 ✭✭✭realgolfgeek


    perfectly entitled to do what he did.


  • #3
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    I would think he done right. It seems that his ball is in the water, unless there is another area where his ball is lost. It's reasonable to say that his ball is in the water. So he played within the rules in my opinion.


  • #4
    mike12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    He is not allowed to play a Provisional if he thinks the ball is in the Hazard. The ball is either in the Hazard or it is lost so he cannot drop once he hits a 3rd off the tee. There is no provisional option for a ball in a water hazard.

    Mike


  • #5
    Ilik Urgee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭Ilik Urgee


    What's the penalty for nominating a provisional when the situation doesn't allow as in this instance?


  • #6
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    If he is virtually certain the ball is in the hazard, which it sounds like it was when it rolled back, (crossed the hazard lines), then I agree with the above, and the ball was in play after his second tee shot, whether he called it a provisional or not.

    Lucky for him he didn't find the original ball he would have played a wrong ball, two shot penalty.


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  • #7
    SnowDrifts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    mike12 wrote: »
    He is not allowed to play a Provisional if he thinks the ball is in the Hazard. The ball is either in the Hazard or it is lost so he cannot drop once he hits a 3rd off the tee. There is no provisional option for a ball in a water hazard.

    Mike

    Not true... if there is any doubt as to whether the ball is in the hazard (may be in long grass near hazard) the player may play a provisional. However, in order to obtain relief from a hazard, he must find his ball in the hazard as virtual certainty as been removed.

    For a perfect summation - see this post (specifically point 2) on an identical thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81246321&postcount=29


  • #8
    Freemount09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭Freemount09


    Player B - should be shot and deserves to lose the hole for putting his teeshot into the water.

    End of thread.


  • #9
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    SnowDrifts wrote: »
    Not true... if there is any doubt as to whether the ball is in the hazard (may be in long grass near hazard) the player may play a provisional. However, in order to obtain relief from a hazard, he must find his ball in the hazard as virtual certainty as been removed.

    For a perfect summation - see this post (specifically point 2) on an identical thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81246321&postcount=29

    Yes, but on a par 3 these hazards are usually staked before the reeds, if there is any, as the point of the hazard is to come into play if the green is not reached, ball rolls down.

    Why is he playing a provisional, he thinks it's in the water or short, but does he really think it's lost just short of the stakes on a Par 3?

    27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
    Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
    A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

    A bit of a chat needs to be had before he hits that ball on the possibillty of it being lost,before the stakes, which in many cases is highly unlikely on water feature par threes. The terrain is all important here.


  • #10
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    It cant be lost in the hazard and a provisional ball in play.
    Either its in the hazard (known or virtually certain) or its not.

    Not finding it outside the hazard within 5 mins doesnt mean its in the hazard. (unless the hazard is surrounded by fairway or something).
    And if it is surrounded by fairway then why did he hit a provo? Anyway,the provo is null and void at this stage as its decided the ball is in the hazard. So usual hazard rules apply, provo is picked up.


  • #11
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,577 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Anyway,the provo is null and void at this stage as its decided the ball is in the hazard. So usual hazard rules apply, provo is picked up.

    Bit confused over this last point!
    What situation are you referring to where the Provo should be picked up?


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  • #12
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    We can't really know is the problem unless we know the lay out of where the ball went, if there is no area to lose the ball before the hazard, he has made an erroneous provisional, and he can't avail of relief even if he sees the ball in the hazard.

    He's putting for four.

    If there isa tall grass, trees in between hazard and where the ball went, he can play a provisional, find the ball in the hazard and play it under hazard rules, if he can't find it he's using his provisional and putting for four.

    You don't get a choice to play from the hazard or your provisional.


  • #13
    billy3sheets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭billy3sheets


    The hole in question is the 9th at Roganstown.

    As it transpired, I was not sure of the rule, so I could not make any definite demand about him conceding the hole. Our caddie/referee gave his opinion and also phoned 3 others to get their view. All agreed that his provo was valid. He went on to play that and win the hole.

    We played on and I won. Good job Freemount09 wasn't around to shoot me :D


  • #14
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    John Divney wrote: »
    We can't really know is the problem unless we know the lay out of where the ball went, if there is no area to lose the ball before the hazard, he has made an erroneous provisional, and he can't avail of relief even if he sees the ball in the hazard.

    He's putting for four.

    If there isa tall grass, trees in between hazard and where the ball went, he can play a provisional, find the ball in the hazard and play it under hazard rules, if he can't find it he's using his provisional and putting for four.

    You don't get a choice to play from the hazard or your provisional.

    he can avail of relief if he finds it in the hazard, it's the Provo that is no longer an option.
    he played the Provo not knowing where his original was.
    subsequently found it was in a hazard so continues on as if the Provo was never played.


  • #15
    ernieprice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 133 ✭✭ernieprice


    GreeBo wrote: »
    he can avail of relief if he finds it in the hazard, it's the Provo that is no longer an option.
    he played the Provo not knowing where his original was.
    subsequently found it was in a hazard so continues on as if the Provo was never played.
    Correct
    If he finds it in hazard the provisional ball must be abandoned and the ball dropped under water hazard rule, if ball is not found in hazard then it's a lost ball and play must continue with provisional ball.


  • #16
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    heres an interesting question i found on the R&A interactive rules site. it wold seem in some cases you have to play the second ball.

    Q.A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?

    A.The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of “Provisional Ball”, is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

    from this i think the player has to make clear that he is playing a provisional incase the original ball was lost outside the water hazard, if he is playing the provisional because he thinks his ball is in the hazard then its not actually a provisional.


  • #17
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    The point is he can play one of he thinks it may be 'lost' Greebo, there has to be an area before the hazard stakes to lose it in. It's not lost in fairway or tight cut rough,

    If there is none, he has played an incorrect provisional, and can't avail of any relief if he finds ball in hazard, it's two shot penalty if he does,


  • #18
    Miley Byrne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Miley Byrne


    billy3sheets wrote: »
    all conclude that Player A's ball is lost in the water hazard.

    It's straightforward enough after this was the conclusion reached I would have thought. Provisional abandoned and take a drop from where the ball last crossed the hazard.


  • #19
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    denisoc16 wrote: »
    It's straightforward enough after this was the conclusion reached I would have thought. Provisional abandoned and take a drop from where the ball last crossed the hazard.

    Problem is once you play an incorrect provisional, the ball is in play.


  • #20
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    @john, surely he would just carry on with the provisional as this now becomes the ball in play, as he had no right to play a provisional if he thought his ball was in the hazard he effectively played a ball under penalty of 'stroke and distance' and there is no 2 shot penalty.

    also the player can just go and hole out the provisional ball, once he does this the other is now considered lost.


  • #21
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    Yes, there is no penalty for wrong provisional, it's playing a wrong ball that's the problem resulting from incorrect provisional, so if he does play from the hazard that's a two shot penalty.


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  • #22
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    John Divney wrote: »
    Problem is once you play an incorrect provisional, the ball is in play.

    Define "incorrect" though?

    If you played a provo because your ball might be in the hazard but if not in then it cannot be lost, then it was never a provo to begin with, you took 3 off the tee.

    If you played it because you thought your original was lost and it turns up in a hazard then its not an incorrect provisional and so you continue with the usual options for a ball in a hazard and pickup the provo.


  • #23
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    John Divney wrote: »
    Yes, there is no penalty for wrong provisional, it's playing a wrong ball that's the problem resulting from incorrect provisional, so if he does play from the hazard that's a two shot penalty.

    I dont follow what situation you are describing here. Assuming the player had no way of knowing the ball, if not found, could only be in the hazard then if the ball is found in the hazard its the ball in play, the provo is null and void.
    I'd say its pretty rare that you have a hazard surrounded by flat manicured grass where its impossible to lose a ball. Just this weekend I cracked a ball into a small stream that then hit a rock and hopped miles up the fairway. If I hadnt seen it hop out I could easily assume it must be in the hazard as I saw it go in and couldnt find it short of the hazard.
    etxp wrote: »

    also the player can just go and hole out the provisional ball, once he does this the other is now considered lost.

    If the provo is not in play then holing out with it makes no difference. (other than penalty for playing wrong ball or practicing on the course)


  • #24
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I dont follow what situation you are describing here. Assuming the player had no way of knowing the ball, if not found, could only be in the hazard then if the ball is found in the hazard its the ball in play, the provo is null and void.
    I'd say its pretty rare that you have a hazard surrounded by flat manicured grass where its impossible to lose a ball. Just this weekend I cracked a ball into a small stream that then hit a rock and hopped miles up the fairway. If I hadnt seen it hop out I could easily assume it must be in the hazard as I saw it go in and couldnt find it short of the hazard.



    If the provo is not in play then holing out with it makes no difference. (other than penalty for playing wrong ball or practicing on the course)

    A Provo comes into play once it is played from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. In the op situation his Provo was on the putting green, closer to the hole, so if you play it, it is now in play.


  • #25
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    etxp wrote: »
    A Provo comes into play once it is played from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. In the op situation his Provo was on the putting green, closer to the hole, so if you play it, it is now in play.

    Not if the provo was never in play because your ball is sitting in a hazard, you cant just ignore that and run up and play your provo.


  • #26
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Not if the provo was never in play because your ball is sitting in a hazard, you cant just ignore that and run up and play your provo.

    Well then that(Provo) is the ball in play anyway if that was the situation.

    Edit. Presuming he played the Provo for a ball in a hazard.


  • #27
    For Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭For Paws


    etxp wrote: »
    Well then that(Provo) is the ball in play anyway if that was the situation.

    Edit. Presuming he played the Provo for a ball in a hazard.

    A player is not entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball lies in a hazard.
    A player is entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball may be lost outside of a hazard.

    The situation where a hazard adjoins an (internal or external) out of bounds area and / or an area of deep rough, and a putting green is unusual, but possible.

    If a player, considering all the available evidence, considers that it is equally possible that his original ball lies in either a hazard or deep rough or out of bounds then he is entitled to put another ball in play and declare it to be a provisional ball.

    Having gone forward, and not found his original ball, he is not entitled to proceed under the assumption that his ball lies in the hazard. Unless he can confirm, by locating and identifying, that his ball lies in the hazard, he must proceed with his second ball, which is now the ball in play.


  • #28
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    For Paws wrote: »
    A player is not entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball lies in a hazard.
    A player is entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball may be lost outside of a hazard.

    The situation where a hazard adjoins an (internal or external) out of bounds area and / or an area of deep rough, and a putting green is unusual, but possible.

    If a player, considering all the available evidence, considers that it is equally possible that his original ball lies in either a hazard or deep rough or out of bounds then he is entitled to put another ball in play and declare it to be a provisional ball.

    Having gone forward, and not found his original ball, he is not entitled to proceed under the assumption that his ball lies in the hazard. Unless he can confirm, by locating and identifying, that his ball lies in the hazard, he must proceed with his second ball, which is now the ball in play.

    i know this. where have i disagreed? - although my head is fried from reading all these rule threads so i may have disagreed with it somewhere :)


  • #29
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Define "incorrect" though?

    If you played a provo because your ball might be in the hazard but if not in then it cannot be lost, then it was never a provo to begin with, you took 3 off the tee.

    If you played it because you thought your original was lost and it turns up in a hazard then its not an incorrect provisional and so you continue with the usual options for a ball in a hazard and pickup the provo.

    I'm describing the scenario in the OP's case, is if the ball rolls down to the hazard and there is nothing between the stakes that you may be able to lose a ball, he doesn't know it's in for sure, and says he's hitting a provisional

    He goes down, finds the ball, and plays it, or drops, it's a wrong ball.

    But if He goes to the green, and despite the so called (incorrect) provisional, he's fine, despite calling it a provisional, it wasn't one.

    He;s three off the tee no matter what, however he's getting a further two stroke penalty for wrong ball in one case, and obliviously playing what he thinks is a provisional in the other scenario.

    Therefore, the penalty is for wrong ball, not for incorrect provisional, so to speak


  • #30
    For Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭For Paws


    John Divney wrote: »
    I'm describing the scenario in the OP's case, is if the ball rolls down to the hazard and there is nothing between the stakes that you may be able to lose a ball, he doesn't know it's in for sure, and says he's hitting a provisional

    He goes down, finds the ball, and plays it, or drops, it's a wrong ball.

    But if He goes to the green, and despite the so called (incorrect) provisional, he's fine, despite calling it a provisional, it wasn't one.

    He;s three off the tee no matter what, however he's getting a further two stroke penalty for wrong ball in one case, and obliviously playing what he thinks is a provisional in the other scenario.

    Therefore, the penalty is for wrong ball, not for incorrect provisional, so to speak

    If the scenario is as you describe, the player is not entitled to put another ball into play, and declare it to be a 'provisional'.
    It would seem that the only interpretation open is that the player has abandoned his original ball without searching for it, and has played three shots. It follows that he may not search for his original as he has declared it lost, and must proceed with his second ball.


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  • #31
    John Divney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    For Paws wrote: »
    If the scenario is as you describe, the player is not entitled to put another ball into play.
    It would seem that the only interpretation open is that the player has abandoned his original ball without searching for it, and has played three shots. It follows that he may not search for his original as he has declared it lost, and must proceed with his second ball.

    Well he is entitled, as long as he forgest the other ball,, But he didn't know he could't play a provisional, carried on looking for his first ball, didn't find it, and played the ball on the green, for four.

    He gets no penalty by luck,. On another occasion he plays the first ball, gets two shots, that's my point about the penalty being for wrong ball, not incorrectly declaring a provisional.


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