Rules Q: Ball lost in water hazard / provisional ball

billy3sheets

Matchplay competition
Par 3, water front & right of green, yellow stakes.

Player A tees off, clears water front, rolls off right side of green, possibly/probably into or past water on right.

Player B - me - plays his shot (also into water but not relevant here).

Player A then plays a provisional to centre of green. Both players and caddies search for Player A's ball all around the water to the right which lined by reeds. After 5 mins searching, all conclude that Player A's ball is lost in the water hazard.

Player A then proceeds to play his 4th shot with his provisional ball.

My question is:
Is player A entitled to use his provisional ball instead of dropping beyond the water on the right and playing his 3rd shot from there?

realgolfgeek

perfectly entitled to do what he did.

DuckSlice

I would think he done right. It seems that his ball is in the water, unless there is another area where his ball is lost. It's reasonable to say that his ball is in the water. So he played within the rules in my opinion.

mike12

He is not allowed to play a Provisional if he thinks the ball is in the Hazard. The ball is either in the Hazard or it is lost so he cannot drop once he hits a 3rd off the tee. There is no provisional option for a ball in a water hazard.

Mike

Ilik Urgee

What's the penalty for nominating a provisional when the situation doesn't allow as in this instance?

John Divney

If he is virtually certain the ball is in the hazard, which it sounds like it was when it rolled back, (crossed the hazard lines), then I agree with the above, and the ball was in play after his second tee shot, whether he called it a provisional or not.

Lucky for him he didn't find the original ball he would have played a wrong ball, two shot penalty.

SnowDrifts

mike12 wrote: »

He is not allowed to play a Provisional if he thinks the ball is in the Hazard. The ball is either in the Hazard or it is lost so he cannot drop once he hits a 3rd off the tee. There is no provisional option for a ball in a water hazard.

Mike

Not true... if there is any doubt as to whether the ball is in the hazard (may be in long grass near hazard) the player may play a provisional. However, in order to obtain relief from a hazard, he must find his ball in the hazard as virtual certainty as been removed.

For a perfect summation - see this post (specifically point 2) on an identical thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81246321&postcount=29

Freemount09

Player B - should be shot and deserves to lose the hole for putting his teeshot into the water.

End of thread.

John Divney

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Not true... if there is any doubt as to whether the ball is in the hazard (may be in long grass near hazard) the player may play a provisional. However, in order to obtain relief from a hazard, he must find his ball in the hazard as virtual certainty as been removed.

For a perfect summation - see this post (specifically point 2) on an identical thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81246321&postcount=29

Yes, but on a par 3 these hazards are usually staked before the reeds, if there is any, as the point of the hazard is to come into play if the green is not reached, ball rolls down.

Why is he playing a provisional, he thinks it's in the water or short, but does he really think it's lost just short of the stakes on a Par 3?

27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

A bit of a chat needs to be had before he hits that ball on the possibillty of it being lost,before the stakes, which in many cases is highly unlikely on water feature par threes. The terrain is all important here.

GreeBo

It cant be lost in the hazard and a provisional ball in play.
Either its in the hazard (known or virtually certain) or its not.

Not finding it outside the hazard within 5 mins doesnt mean its in the hazard. (unless the hazard is surrounded by fairway or something).
And if it is surrounded by fairway then why did he hit a provo? Anyway,the provo is null and void at this stage as its decided the ball is in the hazard. So usual hazard rules apply, provo is picked up.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Anyway,the provo is null and void at this stage as its decided the ball is in the hazard. So usual hazard rules apply, provo is picked up.

Bit confused over this last point!
What situation are you referring to where the Provo should be picked up?

John Divney

We can't really know is the problem unless we know the lay out of where the ball went, if there is no area to lose the ball before the hazard, he has made an erroneous provisional, and he can't avail of relief even if he sees the ball in the hazard.

He's putting for four.

If there isa tall grass, trees in between hazard and where the ball went, he can play a provisional, find the ball in the hazard and play it under hazard rules, if he can't find it he's using his provisional and putting for four.

You don't get a choice to play from the hazard or your provisional.

billy3sheets

The hole in question is the 9th at Roganstown.

As it transpired, I was not sure of the rule, so I could not make any definite demand about him conceding the hole. Our caddie/referee gave his opinion and also phoned 3 others to get their view. All agreed that his provo was valid. He went on to play that and win the hole.

We played on and I won. Good job Freemount09 wasn't around to shoot me

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

We can't really know is the problem unless we know the lay out of where the ball went, if there is no area to lose the ball before the hazard, he has made an erroneous provisional, and he can't avail of relief even if he sees the ball in the hazard.

He's putting for four.

If there isa tall grass, trees in between hazard and where the ball went, he can play a provisional, find the ball in the hazard and play it under hazard rules, if he can't find it he's using his provisional and putting for four.

You don't get a choice to play from the hazard or your provisional.

he can avail of relief if he finds it in the hazard, it's the Provo that is no longer an option.
he played the Provo not knowing where his original was.
subsequently found it was in a hazard so continues on as if the Provo was never played.

ernieprice

GreeBo wrote: »

he can avail of relief if he finds it in the hazard, it's the Provo that is no longer an option.
he played the Provo not knowing where his original was.
subsequently found it was in a hazard so continues on as if the Provo was never played.

Correct
If he finds it in hazard the provisional ball must be abandoned and the ball dropped under water hazard rule, if ball is not found in hazard then it's a lost ball and play must continue with provisional ball.

DuckSlice

heres an interesting question i found on the R&A interactive rules site. it wold seem in some cases you have to play the second ball.

Q.A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?

A.The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of “Provisional Ball”, is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

from this i think the player has to make clear that he is playing a provisional incase the original ball was lost outside the water hazard, if he is playing the provisional because he thinks his ball is in the hazard then its not actually a provisional.

John Divney

The point is he can play one of he thinks it may be 'lost' Greebo, there has to be an area before the hazard stakes to lose it in. It's not lost in fairway or tight cut rough,

If there is none, he has played an incorrect provisional, and can't avail of any relief if he finds ball in hazard, it's two shot penalty if he does,

Miley Byrne

billy3sheets wrote: »

all conclude that Player A's ball is lost in the water hazard.

It's straightforward enough after this was the conclusion reached I would have thought. Provisional abandoned and take a drop from where the ball last crossed the hazard.

John Divney

denisoc16 wrote: »

It's straightforward enough after this was the conclusion reached I would have thought. Provisional abandoned and take a drop from where the ball last crossed the hazard.

Problem is once you play an incorrect provisional, the ball is in play.

DuckSlice

@john, surely he would just carry on with the provisional as this now becomes the ball in play, as he had no right to play a provisional if he thought his ball was in the hazard he effectively played a ball under penalty of 'stroke and distance' and there is no 2 shot penalty.

also the player can just go and hole out the provisional ball, once he does this the other is now considered lost.

John Divney

Yes, there is no penalty for wrong provisional, it's playing a wrong ball that's the problem resulting from incorrect provisional, so if he does play from the hazard that's a two shot penalty.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

Problem is once you play an incorrect provisional, the ball is in play.

Define "incorrect" though?

If you played a provo because your ball might be in the hazard but if not in then it cannot be lost, then it was never a provo to begin with, you took 3 off the tee.

If you played it because you thought your original was lost and it turns up in a hazard then its not an incorrect provisional and so you continue with the usual options for a ball in a hazard and pickup the provo.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

Yes, there is no penalty for wrong provisional, it's playing a wrong ball that's the problem resulting from incorrect provisional, so if he does play from the hazard that's a two shot penalty.

I dont follow what situation you are describing here. Assuming the player had no way of knowing the ball, if not found, could only be in the hazard then if the ball is found in the hazard its the ball in play, the provo is null and void.
I'd say its pretty rare that you have a hazard surrounded by flat manicured grass where its impossible to lose a ball. Just this weekend I cracked a ball into a small stream that then hit a rock and hopped miles up the fairway. If I hadnt seen it hop out I could easily assume it must be in the hazard as I saw it go in and couldnt find it short of the hazard.

etxp wrote: »

also the player can just go and hole out the provisional ball, once he does this the other is now considered lost.

If the provo is not in play then holing out with it makes no difference. (other than penalty for playing wrong ball or practicing on the course)

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont follow what situation you are describing here. Assuming the player had no way of knowing the ball, if not found, could only be in the hazard then if the ball is found in the hazard its the ball in play, the provo is null and void.
I'd say its pretty rare that you have a hazard surrounded by flat manicured grass where its impossible to lose a ball. Just this weekend I cracked a ball into a small stream that then hit a rock and hopped miles up the fairway. If I hadnt seen it hop out I could easily assume it must be in the hazard as I saw it go in and couldnt find it short of the hazard.



If the provo is not in play then holing out with it makes no difference. (other than penalty for playing wrong ball or practicing on the course)

A Provo comes into play once it is played from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. In the op situation his Provo was on the putting green, closer to the hole, so if you play it, it is now in play.

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

A Provo comes into play once it is played from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. In the op situation his Provo was on the putting green, closer to the hole, so if you play it, it is now in play.

Not if the provo was never in play because your ball is sitting in a hazard, you cant just ignore that and run up and play your provo.

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

Not if the provo was never in play because your ball is sitting in a hazard, you cant just ignore that and run up and play your provo.

Well then that(Provo) is the ball in play anyway if that was the situation.

Edit. Presuming he played the Provo for a ball in a hazard.

For Paws

etxp wrote: »

Well then that(Provo) is the ball in play anyway if that was the situation.

Edit. Presuming he played the Provo for a ball in a hazard.

A player is not entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball lies in a hazard.
A player is entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball may be lost outside of a hazard.

The situation where a hazard adjoins an (internal or external) out of bounds area and / or an area of deep rough, and a putting green is unusual, but possible.

If a player, considering all the available evidence, considers that it is equally possible that his original ball lies in either a hazard or deep rough or out of bounds then he is entitled to put another ball in play and declare it to be a provisional ball.

Having gone forward, and not found his original ball, he is not entitled to proceed under the assumption that his ball lies in the hazard. Unless he can confirm, by locating and identifying, that his ball lies in the hazard, he must proceed with his second ball, which is now the ball in play.

DuckSlice

For Paws wrote: »

A player is not entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball lies in a hazard.
A player is entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that it is known or virtually certain that his original ball may be lost outside of a hazard.

The situation where a hazard adjoins an (internal or external) out of bounds area and / or an area of deep rough, and a putting green is unusual, but possible.

If a player, considering all the available evidence, considers that it is equally possible that his original ball lies in either a hazard or deep rough or out of bounds then he is entitled to put another ball in play and declare it to be a provisional ball.

Having gone forward, and not found his original ball, he is not entitled to proceed under the assumption that his ball lies in the hazard. Unless he can confirm, by locating and identifying, that his ball lies in the hazard, he must proceed with his second ball, which is now the ball in play.

i know this. where have i disagreed? - although my head is fried from reading all these rule threads so i may have disagreed with it somewhere

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

Define "incorrect" though?

If you played a provo because your ball might be in the hazard but if not in then it cannot be lost, then it was never a provo to begin with, you took 3 off the tee.

If you played it because you thought your original was lost and it turns up in a hazard then its not an incorrect provisional and so you continue with the usual options for a ball in a hazard and pickup the provo.

I'm describing the scenario in the OP's case, is if the ball rolls down to the hazard and there is nothing between the stakes that you may be able to lose a ball, he doesn't know it's in for sure, and says he's hitting a provisional

He goes down, finds the ball, and plays it, or drops, it's a wrong ball.

But if He goes to the green, and despite the so called (incorrect) provisional, he's fine, despite calling it a provisional, it wasn't one.

He;s three off the tee no matter what, however he's getting a further two stroke penalty for wrong ball in one case, and obliviously playing what he thinks is a provisional in the other scenario.

Therefore, the penalty is for wrong ball, not for incorrect provisional, so to speak

For Paws

John Divney wrote: »

I'm describing the scenario in the OP's case, is if the ball rolls down to the hazard and there is nothing between the stakes that you may be able to lose a ball, he doesn't know it's in for sure, and says he's hitting a provisional

He goes down, finds the ball, and plays it, or drops, it's a wrong ball.

But if He goes to the green, and despite the so called (incorrect) provisional, he's fine, despite calling it a provisional, it wasn't one.

He;s three off the tee no matter what, however he's getting a further two stroke penalty for wrong ball in one case, and obliviously playing what he thinks is a provisional in the other scenario.

Therefore, the penalty is for wrong ball, not for incorrect provisional, so to speak

If the scenario is as you describe, the player is not entitled to put another ball into play, and declare it to be a 'provisional'.
It would seem that the only interpretation open is that the player has abandoned his original ball without searching for it, and has played three shots. It follows that he may not search for his original as he has declared it lost, and must proceed with his second ball.

John Divney

For Paws wrote: »

If the scenario is as you describe, the player is not entitled to put another ball into play.
It would seem that the only interpretation open is that the player has abandoned his original ball without searching for it, and has played three shots. It follows that he may not search for his original as he has declared it lost, and must proceed with his second ball.

Well he is entitled, as long as he forgest the other ball,, But he didn't know he could't play a provisional, carried on looking for his first ball, didn't find it, and played the ball on the green, for four.

He gets no penalty by luck,. On another occasion he plays the first ball, gets two shots, that's my point about the penalty being for wrong ball, not incorrectly declaring a provisional.

For Paws

John Divney wrote: »

Well he is entitled, as long as he forgest the other ball,, But he didn't know he could't play a provisional, carried on looking for his first ball, didn't find it, and played the ball on the green, for four.

He gets no penalty by luck,. On another occasion he plays the first ball, gets two shots, that's my point about the penalty being for wrong ball, not incorrectly declaring a provisional.

Not entirely ; Since he was not entitled to put another ball into play and declare it a provisional, he had abandoned his first ball. He was therefore not entitled to search for it, and had he done so, been thereby subject to penalty for undue delay, that penalty being added to his total score on that hole.

John Divney

For Paws wrote: »

Not entirely ; Since he was not entitled to put another ball into play and declare it a provisional, he had abandoned his first ball. He was therefore not entitled to search for it, and had he done so, been thereby subject to penalty for undue delay, that penalty being added to his total score on that hole.

Ah, good point, The irony being the provisional rules are there to speed things up.

For Paws

John Divney wrote: »

Ah, good point, The irony being the provisional rules are there to speed things up.

Possibly he ended up in the hazard because he hit the wrong iron(y)

GreeBo

For Paws wrote: »

Not entirely ; Since he was not entitled to put another ball into play and declare it a provisional, he had abandoned his first ball. He was therefore not entitled to search for it, and had he done so, been thereby subject to penalty for undue delay, that penalty being added to his total score on that hole.

Well it depends on how he declared the provo.
If I dont see where my ball lands and I dont know whats there I hit a provo, because I might not find my ball, I dont know where it is.
Unless he said "Im hitting a provo in case its in the hazard" then the provo is just that, a provisional ball. If he finds the original he continues with it and picks up the provo. If he doesnt find it he continues with the provo, unless he subsequently learns that his ball is indeed in the hazard, in which case again the provo is picked up.

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

Well it depends on how he declared the provo.
If I dont see where my ball lands and I dont know whats there I hit a provo, because I might not find my ball, I dont know where it is.
Unless he said "Im hitting a provo in case its in the hazard" then the provo is just that, a provisional ball. If he finds the original he continues with it and picks up the provo. If he doesnt find it he continues with the provo, unless he subsequently learns that his ball is indeed in the hazard, in which case again the provo is picked up.

if he declares this then he is in breach of the rules i would have thought. you cant play a provo for a ball in a hazard, he would have to declare he is playing a provo in case the ball is lost.

PARlance

etxp wrote: »

if he declares this then he is in breach of the rules i would have thought. you cant play a provo for a ball in a hazard, he would have to declare he is playing a provo in case the ball is lost.

My head is spinning with all these but I think you're getting confused.
In Greebo's example, he isn't sure where it is lost so a provisional is allowed to be played.


27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

if he declares this then he is in breach of the rules i would have thought. you cant play a provo for a ball in a hazard, he would have to declare he is playing a provo in case the ball is lost.

Thats why I said "unless he says this" the provo ball is a provo. If he *does* make that declaration then its not a provo, he is putting another ball in play under stroke and distance penalty. (because as we agree, you cannot play a provo for a ball in a hazard)


I think the simplest way to look at the rule is that a provisional ball is played when a ball may be lost.
You cannot lose a ball in a hazard, ergo...

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats why I said "unless he says this" the provo ball is a provo. If he *does* make that declaration then its not a provo, he is putting another ball in play under stroke and distance penalty. (because as we agree, you cannot play a provo for a ball in a hazard)


I think the simplest way to look at the rule is that a provisional ball is played when a ball may be lost.
You cannot lose a ball in a hazard, ergo...

yea i get you now, just misread it.

billy3sheets

Gosh! What a debate!
Thanks to all for their views.

I think the interpretation of the provisional may have been incorrect at the time.
How I thought it went for Player B:
My ball might be in the hazard or might not have gone in at all. I'll hit a provisional. If I find the 1st ball in the hazard then I'll drop out.
We searched for the ball, concluded that it was in the hazard but not findable.
Therefore I can play the provisional because I was entitled to hit my 3rd off the tee if I hit into a hazard anyway.

For Paws

billy3sheets wrote: »

Gosh! What a debate!
Thanks to all for their views.

I think the interpretation of the provisional may have been incorrect at the time.
How I thought it went for Player B:
My ball might be in the hazard or might not have gone in at all. I'll hit a provisional. If I find the 1st ball in the hazard then I'll drop out.
We searched for the ball, concluded that it was in the hazard but not findable.
Therefore I can play the provisional because I was entitled to hit my 3rd off the tee if I hit into a hazard anyway.

A player is not entitled to do this.

Neither is a player entitled to put another ball into play and declare it to be a provisional simply because he cannot see where it (his original ball) landed, or does not know the condition of the area in which it landed.
A player must take all reasonable steps to establish that his original ball may be lost before he may put a provisional ball into play. He may even go forward to or towards the area in which there is evidence that his ball lies in order to ascertain the condition of that area, and then put a provisional ball into play. Otherwise we would see provisional balls hit after every second shot !

PARlance

billy3sheets wrote: »

My ball might be in the hazard or might not have gone in at all. I'll hit a provisional.

For Paws wrote: »

A player is not entitled to do this.

Neither is a player entitled to put another ball into play and declare it to be a provisional simply because he cannot see where it (his original ball) landed, or does not know the condition of the area in which it landed.
A player must take all reasonable steps to establish that his original ball may be lost before he may put a provisional ball into play. He may even go forward to or towards the area in which there is evidence that his ball lies in order to ascertain the condition of that area, and then put a provisional ball into play. Otherwise we would see provisional balls hit after every second shot !

A player is allowed to do that!

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

I don't know where you are getting that a player must take all reasonable steps to establish..............

The R&A state that you only have to think it may be lost
"If, after playing a shot, you think your ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds you should play a provisional ball. You must state that it is a provisional ball and play it before you go forward to search for the original ball."

I'd prefer to see the odd provisional being hit rather than seeing players running up and down the course to make sure there ball isn't lost for sure

For Paws

'simply because he cannot see where it (his original shot) landed or does not know the condition of the area in which it landed'

There must be some evidence (previous experience of playing the course, opinion of partners / referees / caddies) before a player may assume that his ball may be lost.
Just because he can't see where it landed does not constitute evidence that his ball may be lost or out of bounds.

For Paws

Scenario (a)

You and your partners are playing a course for the first time.
You come to a hole where the green is above the fairway from which you are playing.
You over-club and your ball goes through the green into an area that you cannot see.

Are you entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that your original ball may be lost ?

Scenario (b)

Same course, same partners, same shot result.
But one of your partners says he thinks that he can see white stakes not far behind the green.

Clearly, because of the evidence given by your partner, your original ball may be lost outside of a hazard, and you put a provisional ball into play.

PARlance

For Paws wrote: »

Scenario (a)

You and your partners are playing a course for the first time.
You come to a hole where the green is above the fairway from which you are playing.
You over-club and your ball goes through the green into an area that you cannot see.

Are you entitled to put a provisional ball into play on the basis that your original ball may be lost ?

Are you entitled to hit a provisional? Yes, if you feel it may be lost.
What would you do?

From your earlier post you would suggest to run up to the green to see if it's lost, then run back to the fairway to the exact spot and hit again?
Were is the sense in that.

For Paws wrote: »

Neither is a player entitled to put another ball into play and declare it to be a provisional simply because he cannot see where it (his original ball) landed, or does not know the condition of the area in which it landed.
A player must take all reasonable steps to establish that his original ball may be lost before he may put a provisional ball into play. He may even go forward to or towards the area in which there is evidence that his ball lies in order to ascertain the condition of that area, and then put a provisional ball into play. Otherwise we would see provisional balls hit after every second shot !

Have you any rules to back this up or is it just your rules?

I suspect the main reason we don't see provisionals being hit every second shot is down to common sense.

John Divney

There can be a local rule for blind hazards where balls may be lost

Appendix I -2b Permitting play of a provisional ball under Rule 26-1 for a ball that may be in a water hazard of such character that if the original ball is not found, there is reasonable evidence that it is lost in the water hazard and it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play. The ball is played provisionally under any of the available options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a provisional ball is played and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the provisional ball in play, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball.

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

A player is allowed to do that!

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

I don't know where you are getting that a player must take all reasonable steps to establish..............

The R&A state that you only have to think it may be lost
"If, after playing a shot, you think your ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds you should play a provisional ball. You must state that it is a provisional ball and play it before you go forward to search for the original ball."

I'd prefer to see the odd provisional being hit rather than seeing players running up and down the course to make sure there ball isn't lost for sure

from the op's latest post, there is no mention of the ball being lost, only that it may or may not be in a hazard.
you are not allowed to do that!

GreeBo

you can hit a provisional time every time you think a ball could be lost, they're is no restriction on this. that could be one a month or 20 a round, no difference.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

from the op's latest post, there is no mention of the ball being lost, only that it may or may not be in a hazard.
you are not allowed to do that!

I wasn't looking at his last post in isolation.

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I wasn't looking at his last post in isolation.

ah but if you dont state which scenario you are talking about, these threads are a bit like the wheels on the bus...

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

ah but if you dont state which scenario you are talking about, these threads are a bit like the wheels on the bus...

Is that the bus conductor or a fellow passenger talking?