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And it begins..................

12467

Comments

  • #92
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this

    Lesser of two evils.


  • #93
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this

    Children are always being used like this, by everyone.


  • #94
    Days 298
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Days 298


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    It's so sad that the Catholic Church would consider softly indoctrinating our kids. :mad:

    Well how else would they keep up the census stats? Its quite impressive (mainly saddening) how so many continue identify as Catholic without a seconds thought or stepping in a church in years and clash with many of the churches social beliefs.


  • #95
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,277 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    UDP wrote: »
    Big difference between individual teachers and an entire union. No teacher in a catholic school has the right to refuse to teach the curriculum and hold on to their job. The school can legally fire a teacher it. Do you really expect a teacher to put their job on the line in the hope that there will be an all out teacher strike in support? Its just not fair to expect that. Plus it is the newer teachers that are most likely to be atheist and they have very little power/sway in the unions.

    Yes they are expected to teach the curriculum.

    What about teachers who have lost their job because of their private life outside school?
    E.g. cohabiting outside marriage, or being openly gay.
    The spinlessness of the unions in the face of this discrimination (which would be illegal if any other employer tried it) is disgraceful. You'd think they'd want their profession to have the same legal protection all other employees get.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #96
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    Children are always being used like this, by everyone.

    Speak for yourself. Not me.


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  • #97
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Speak for yourself. Not me.

    I actually don't even have children. When I said everyone I was using the term metaphorically, not literally. You see organisations and people using children to push their own agendas all the time was more or less my point.


  • #98
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this
    It's unbelievable that the state pays for schools that are controlled by the one organization that should be banned forever from having contact with children.


  • #99
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    It dosn't seem like this ethos/patronage/religious indoctrination situation within the Education system is going to change anytime soon. Therefore it should be mandatory that religious indoctrination is defined to a specific timeframe (no 'permeation' WTF does religion have to do with Maths, Science or Literacy?) and that classes are held at the end of a school day so that those of us who live in the real world, and want the same for our children, can collect them early on those days!


  • #100
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    It dosn't seem like this ethos/patronage/religious indoctrination situation within the Education system is going to change anytime soon. Therefore it should be mandatory that religious indoctrination is defined to a specific timeframe (no 'permeation' WTF does religion have to do with Maths, Science or Literacy?) and that classes are held at the end of a school day so that those of us who live in the real world, and want the same for our children, can collect them early on those days!

    I'd go one step further and expect the school to be forced to put on an extra class in place of religious education. A real one, not "study time". Maybe an extra language or some basic computing.


  • #101
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,480 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Therefore it should be mandatory that religious indoctrination is defined to a specific timeframe (no 'permeation' WTF does religion have to do with Maths, Science or Literacy?) and that classes are held at the end of a school day so that those of us who live in the real world, and want the same for our children, can collect them early on those days!

    From what I remember religion was usually 9am-9:40 but then you would have to pray before lunch and again at home time. Also there may be visits from the local priest that could happen at any time of the day. We also had to do singing which was all religious based along with learning religion in Irish class.
    Come church holidays the art and craft classes would be devoted to a manger/ Paddy's day card, Brigids cross etc etc etc. In hindsight it was very religious orientated but seemed perfectly normal at the time.


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  • #102
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    Children are always being used like this, by everyone.

    I think many children are regularly used like this would be a bit fairer. Similarly, many parents like myself would not knowingly put their children in this situation. Then again, if two adults offer contradictory facts to a young child, most of them will ask directly which one is lying and which one is telling the truth.

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  • #103
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    It dosn't seem like this ethos/patronage/religious indoctrination situation within the Education system is going to change anytime soon.

    I'm not so sure, but it depends on your time frame. I was lucky enough to go to became the first ET school back in the day, and things have changed massively for the better since then. You only have to go back a few decades and it was swarms of brothers and nuns actually teaching, whereas now they're a rarity. As time goes on, I think the catholic churches foothold in education will be further eroded to the point where it will collapse entirely. Whatever about faith and Christianity, I don't think the Irish people really trust the church much anymore.

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  • #104
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    It's so sad that the Catholic Church would consider softly indoctrinating our kids. :mad:

    Softly indoctrinating is a major improvement on their previous system of beating faith into you with a big stick (or ruler) which is what most of our parents and grandparents got!

    I've heard the horror stories of my grandparent's generation getting beaten to pulp for not memorising catechism (doctrine) correctly. That's about as primitive as 'indoctrination' gets. That and spending hours and hours praying and chanting during the school day.

    I think part of the problem in Ireland is that the majority of adults see education as being some kind of a religious function because that's what they experienced themselves. You got educated by "the brothers" or "the nuns", even though in reality they were just outsources and the state was actually paying and employing the teachers.

    I remember as a kid myself our teacher used to make us recite this "bless the hands that made the food... bless Oh God - Amen" thing every break and lunch time!
    In my head, I had this vision of Terminator-style robot hands in Old Mister Brennan's Bread Factory making the bread though!

    My granny was telling me that for years in school she thought she was praying for this poor unfortunate cross-eyed teddy bear, because a line in a prayer had "the cross I would bear".

    It just shows what utter nonsense it is to even feed kids some of these very abstract, weirdly written and often quite gruesome tales too.


  • #105
    Mr_A
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 564 ✭✭✭Mr_A


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    When I used the 'genuflecting' as an example of what we find unacceptable, she waved her hand at me and said "ah now we don't do anything like that". Then she said that she "might have mentioned God last week but that was all". I am getting the feeling that my concerns are being minimised and I'm being fobbed off. It was more than only "mentioning God", little Kiwi came home showing us how he learnt to 'bless himself'. And if they don't do 'genuflecting' why is it in the text book that they use?

    I realise it is a Catholic school and that sort of nonsense is to be expected, so why are they not being honest with me? And why do both the Principal and Teacher insist that there is no reason to opt out on account of the religion being 'general'?

    I actually wonder do they not believe that we are not any religion, and think that seeing as we are not Catholic we must be Protestant. Maybe that is what the 'general' talk is about. 'General' Christianity not specific Catholicism. If so that would not be the first time I have encountered disbelief! My own mother in law refuses to believe I am an atheist.

    This reflects our experience almost exactly. The school staff minimised the role religion plays in the school to a degree unrecognisable from what actually happens. However, I don't think it's sinister, I think they genuinely don't notice how much of it there is. When we had to remind a teacher that our little one was opted out she was very embarrassed (in fairness she had not been told, not her fault) and immediately said it was all about being friends and being nice anyway. Which looking at the stuff on Alive-O above is clearly nonsense. She also honestly said without irony that they hardly pray- just in the morning at lunchtime and at home time!

    Anyhow, my wife made up work books (these were actually general) so that she would never just be sitting there when the rest were doing their thing. One year we actually got it copied so the other girl opting out would have it too. And as I said earlier in the thread it has been generally fine, although 1st communion was tricky at times (they brought her to the church a few times with the rest and all and she did up just sitting there waiting for it to be over which was unfair- we complained and it stopped).

    Hang in there, stand your ground, be there for your kid and it'll all work out. And they'll probably thank you for it in years to come.

    * There may be some teenage hating you for it. That's standard.


  • #106
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    smacl wrote: »
    I think many children are regularly used like this would be a bit fairer. Similarly, many parents like myself would not knowingly put their children in this situation. Then again, if two adults offer contradictory facts to a young child, most of them will ask directly which one is lying and which one is telling the truth.

    The pedants are out in force! I clarified above, I was using the terms metaphorically. It was a poor choice of words in hindsight.


  • #107
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Bear in mind too that a majority of staff, at primary level anyway, will have been educated in a very religious context themselves and will have very little experience of non-religious eduction environments.

    The majority of Irish primary teachers go from secondary school (mostly religious ethos environment) to one of two teacher training colleges Mary Immaculate College in Limerick or Saint Patrick's College in Drumcondra or in the case of C of I schools the Church of Ireland College of Education.

    Some come in via other routes and may have normal secular 3rd level education too, but most are pretty well indoctrinated themselves.

    The result is that you're talking to an educational professional who has a very odd view of religion's place in the classroom and may see what they are teaching as totally minimal and general.

    Second level teachers are trained entirely differently i.e. have primary degrees from a normal university and do a postgraduate degree / higher diploma in education to learn how to teach so they're much more 'secular' potentially.


  • #108
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    Catch her in private. Tell her you found her bringing up what you viewed as a private matter as wholly inappropriate. Tell her you'd like to find a solution that causes as little fuss as possible without belittling your own beliefs. Tell her you'd like to opt out your child as no matter how 'general' she views it, to you it is not acceptable that he be taught these things as fact.

    Totally that. Sorry, just catching up now and haven't read the last few pages fully, but this is important to you and should be respected by the teachers so what he said really. That was an awkward position she put you in, and she needs to know it's about as acceptable as discussing your child being bullied/in trouble in front of other parents.

    Of course you don't want to come across as "scarily annoying mum" on your first week, so I recommend give it a few days or weeks before having a go at this. A bit of distance for yourself won't hurt, and don't forget - he's learning nothing irreversible and nothing that he won't discriminate about for himself as time goes by. I'll never forget my Dad's advice on this (being a good CBC boy from one of the toughest areas in Dublin who stood up to Jesuits age 12 and earned himself a reputation...left school at 14). "He'll lose it all with his first pint", were his words and although the drink culture is "a thing", I knew what he meant.

    Be sure not to draw ANY attention to the RE lessons with your young fella (I wondered how you found out about him crossing himself without you having made a point of it already?) That will make things awkward for him when he feels he may have to go against you in class. I know this is crap, but honestly my boys haven't an ounce of religion or spirituality, and my eldest could give a run for his money up against some of our regular Xtians.

    Above all, seriously - relax and enjoy his first few weeks in school! This is nothing towards his future, just a bit of keeping teacher in check for you to do. And some upfront explanations FROM YOU that he won't be participating in the same rituals, but you can leave that off unless for a while unless he starts showing enthusiasm for jeebus (in which case, haul his ass somewhere else eh?)

    My 2 cents - don't want to sound knowledgable here, every school is different. Good luck hon xx


  • #109
    Banbh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Banbh


    I had not asked that he be excluded from the religion classes as I don't want him sat alone somewhere.
    We did ask - well we told the school - and have had our wish respected. Our kids have always had to sit in the room when religion was going on but do their homework or read. On occasion, we have had to remind the school or a new teacher that we are not religious but it has never come to anything stronger than that.
    I think many teachers are also non-religious and may even resent being used by the Catholic Church to push their line.
    The swing away from the Catholic Church now means that our younger child is not the only non-religious kid in class but our eldest, now in Leaving Cert year, ploughed a lone furrow and it has made a very strong-willed young woman of her.


  • #110
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Obliq wrote: »

    Be sure not to draw ANY attention to the RE lessons with your young fella (I wondered how you found out about him crossing himself without you having made a point of it already?)

    No I havn't made any issue of it in front of Little Kiwi. It just came up during chat about what he did in school including playing pirates at break time and rescuing a 'mermaid'. I think I maintained a neutral face!


  • #111
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Bear in mind too that a majority of staff, at primary level anyway, will have been educated in a very religious context themselves and will have very little experience of non-religious eduction environments.

    The majority of Irish primary teachers go from secondary school (mostly religious ethos environment) to one of two teacher training colleges Mary Immaculate College in Limerick or Saint Patrick's College in Drumcondra or in the case of C of I schools the Church of Ireland College of Education.

    I had no idea the teacher training colleges also have this religious 'ethos' nonsense! I had assumed they were run within ordinary colleges and universities. Can I ask why the Irish State allows teachers to be trained in an environment of attempted religious indoctrination? Or is that another unanswerable question? I am unsure why the state even bothers to have an Education Department! They may as well just hand it over to the appropriate division of the Vatican and pay them the current education budget.


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  • #112
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I had no idea the teacher training colleges also have this religious 'ethos' nonsense! I had assumed they were run within ordinary colleges and universities. Can I ask why the Irish State allows teachers to be trained in an environment of attempted religious indoctrination? Or is that another unanswerable question? I am unsure why the state even bothers to have an Education Department! They may as well just hand it over to the appropriate division of the Vatican and pay them the current education budget.

    It's just 'one of those things'.

    I think we should be looking at perhaps establishing teacher-training colleges in say UCC and UCG for a start to give students who want to be come teachers the choice of going to a secular institution and having a normal university education.

    UCC has a very well-established education department and early childhood studies department and a pretty seriously big department of psychology and is in Ireland's second largest city.

    AFAIK, UCC has had a lot of connections with Educate Together too.

    UCG/NUIG is basically on the edge of the Gaeltacht and has all those things too. It'd be a wonderful place to go if you wanted to be an Irish-speaking teacher in particular.

    It's a bit unfair to not give primary teaching students similar options to second level teachers and other students.


  • #113
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I had no idea the teacher training colleges also have this religious 'ethos' nonsense!
    See here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056144931
    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Can I ask why the Irish State allows teachers to be trained in an environment of attempted religious indoctrination?
    Reminds me of the following few lines from one or other of -- I think -- Aristophanes' plays:

    Passing fool: Hey, you're a politician, aren't you?
    Politician: Yes, I am.
    Fool: What qualifications do you have to exercise such power?
    Politician: None, other than simply wanting it.


  • #114
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    They may as well just hand it over to the appropriate division of the Vatican and pay them the current education budget.

    Yup, now you have it. That is exactly what they're doing.


  • #115
    lynski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    No I havn't made any issue of it in front of Little Kiwi. It just came up during chat about what he did in school including playing pirates at break time and rescuing a 'mermaid'. I think I maintained a neutral face!

    We did not draw any attention to religion or religious instruction with my daughter in pre-school as it did not occur to us that a community pre-school would teach any religious content. It was an absolute shock when she started to bless herself and say grace. When I raised it they could not really see the problem, they did not argue with me but I could see that they were thinking its only a prayer.


  • #116
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    There is probably grounds for a constitutional case against the state as I really can't see how the system is compliant with constitutional religious freedom requirements.

    Failing that, I think a case before the European Courts could be another potential option as it's basically just riding roughshod over citizens rights to religious freedom

    It's far beyond just a bit of religious symbolism in buildings or whatever and what's scarier is that I don't think the staff even understand how seriously strange it is!

    Maybe it's time concerned parents pooled some resources and start to look at legal action?


  • #117
    Banbh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Banbh


    It is quite common with those who discriminate that they don't realise they are doing it, and when challenged respond with the 'it's only...' or 'sure nobody minds' or 'what's the big deal.'

    For things to change, people have to stand up for their rights.

    Rosa Parks, and a lot others, could still be sitting at the back of that bus.


  • #118
    Banbh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Maybe it's time concerned parents pooled some resources and start to look at legal action?
    Count me in.


  • #119
    lynski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    SpaceTime wrote: »

    It's far beyond just a bit of religious symbolism in buildings or whatever and what's scarier is that I don't think the staff even understand how seriously strange it is!

    There it is, I think a lot if Irish people don't even think of communion and baptism as catholic just "what is done" the reflex/ingrained catholism is thoughtless and almost subconscious.


  • #120
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    lynski wrote: »
    We did not draw any attention to religion or religious instruction with my daughter in pre-school as it did not occur to us that a community pre-school would teach any religious content. It was an absolute shock when she started to bless herself and say grace. When I raised it they could not really see the problem, they did not argue with me but I could see that they were thinking its only a prayer.

    I wonder if the pre-school manager you spoke to would see the problem if it were his/her child and they came home reciting Muslim prayers and rituals? Somehow I suspect they would. I'm not sure why there is such a lack of intelligence and sensitivity to the fact that not all people/children/families are identical. There appears to be a lot of people in denial of the fact that in 2013 First World Countries are incompatible with cultural homogeneity.


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  • #121
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,480 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Ha can you imagine the uproar when a class of 5 years olds go home and at a set time of the day get down on their knees and face towards Meccah.


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