And it begins..................

I Heart Internet · 09-09-2013 03:13PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I had not asked that he be excluded from the religion classes as I don't want him sat alone somewhere.

Yesterday the 'Alive O' book came home. .

Perhaps the two are connected? If you don't want him engaging with religion class and religious aspects of the school, could you not ask that he sit it out? Ditto with the book - just send it back..."no thanks".

Beruthiel · 09-09-2013 03:13PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents.

I already don't like this woman.
A discussion on a personal matter with regards to your child and she thinks it's acceptable to have it in front of everyone?

I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

I don't see it as a war.
I see it as an expectation with regards to your rights.
What if you were of the muslim or jewish faith? Would it still be acceptable for this teacher to teach them how to bless themselves in the catholic way?
Are there only Irish catholic kids going to this school?

gaynorvader · 09-09-2013 03:13PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Perhaps the two are connected? If you don't want him engaging with religion class and religious aspects of the school, could you not ask that he sit it out? Ditto with the book - just send it back..."no thanks".

I feel like you read about 2% of the thread.

Cabaal · 09-09-2013 03:14PM

Just had a quick google about that workbook:

Synopsis
Alive-O is a multimedia, interdisciplinary Religious Education programme for four to twelve year olds. The title Alive-O reflects one of the overriding concerns of religious education, namely, to enable people to become fully alive to the presence of God in themselves, in others, in the church, and in the world around them.

Not sure how this is general if the religious teachings are based in anyway around this workbook especially given how its backed by the catholic church http://www.catholicireland.net/the-alive-o-programme/

and if this is covered in the book/programme then it is most certainly indoctrination

In the course of the Primary School, a child will receive the Sacraments of First Holy Communion, Reconciliation and Confirmation. Apart from these, for most children there is a constant exposure to the liturgical life of the Christian community. The programme in Junior and Senior Infants focuses on the four seasons and then from 1st class onwards the programme has many lessons based on the liturgical year: Ash Wednesday and Lent; Easter and Pentecost; the months of October and May for Mary; Advent and Christmas; November and the Commemoration of the Dead. Each year the children are introduced to an Irish saint and by the end of 6th class they will be familiar with the Seven Sacraments of the Church, will know the various prayers and responses of the Mass, and will have learned the mysteries of the Rosary. It is important that this liturgical formation is done according to their young age and faith, and so it is done over the eight years of primary school. However, and this is essential, liturgical education will fail abysmally if it becomes something that is only done in school. By showing children that going to Mass is not something that you just do in school; that the sacred and spiritual dimension of feasts such as Christmas, Easter, St Patrick’s Day and so on are not just the dimension reserved for school, we give the children an opportunity to grow in faith beyond the confines of the school.

Somebody did this very helpful analysis of the Alive O programme, covers everything involved so good way of getting to know exactly what any kid will involved in if they use this programme

http://eannajohnson.org/wp/wp-content/.../02/An-Analysis-of-Alive-O-6.doc‎

Sarky · 09-09-2013 03:15PM

Oh, they mean "inclusive" as in "We'll include everyone in the Catholic indoctrination!" That makes sense.

Beruthiel · 09-09-2013 03:20PM

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, they mean "inclusive" as in "We'll include everyone in the Catholic indoctrination!" That makes sense.

Aahhh.
Thanks for clearing that up Sarky, that does indeed make more sense.

Cabaal · 09-09-2013 03:28PM

Oh man its sneaky as well

Introduction,

The Programme presents itself on its covers and title page simply as “ALIVE-O”. This title in itself does not convey anything Catholic, Christian, or even religious.

So...its not catholic then?

There are 28 lessons in Alive-O book 6 arranged in three terms, as follows:
Term 1: Lesson 1. Within God's creation.
Lesson 2. And God said……
Lesson 3. Jesus and Creation.
Lesson 4. St Francis Cares for Creation.
Lesson 5. Mary.
Lesson 6. God nourishes us.
Lesson 7. God sent Jesus to nourish us.
Lesson 8. God Sent the Holy Spirit to Nourish Us.
Lesson 9. Happy Ever After.
Lesson 10. Loving God.
Lesson 11. Loving My Neighbour.
Lesson 12. Come to the Manger.

Oh I see what they've done there.....

Sarky · 09-09-2013 03:31PM

So it's religious indoctrination with the thinnest, most pathetic pretense of a veneer of inclusiveness. How very Catholic.

Turtwig · 09-09-2013 03:32PM

Reasonably sure that a couple of our friends from Youth Defence are involved in selecting it's curriculum too. I know I know, that's poisoning the well but still.

The program is awful!

gaynorvader · 09-09-2013 03:32PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh man its sneaky as well

Introduction,

So...its not catholic then?

Oh I see what they've done there.....

Christian not Catholic. Inclusive!

Sarky · 09-09-2013 03:34PM

Jernal wrote: »

I know I know, that's poisoning the well but still.

ಠ_ಠ

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 03:37PM

Beruthiel wrote: »

I don't think you're being taken seriously Kiwi.

I call bullsh!t.
So they won't be preparing the kids for Holy Communion at some point in the future then....?
If you don't intend to have your child participate in that, you need to make it very clear to the teachers involved that this is the case.

I told them when I enrolled him that he is not any religion and will not be doing communion or confirmation. I reiterated that to the principal the other day.

I expected problems with this certainly, but not such a nightmare so quickly.

I Heart Internet · 09-09-2013 03:41PM

http://education.dublindiocese.ie/2012/02/21/alive-o-programme/

The Alive-O programme is the core resource for the teaching of Religious Education in every Catholic Primary School in Ireland. The title Alive-O reflects one of the overriding concerns of Religious Education, namely, to enable people to become fully alive in the presence of God in themselves, in others, in the Church and in all creation.

The Alive-O programme isn't the Trojan Horse some people are trying to make it out to be. It is designed, quite straightforwardly, to teach catholic children about the catholic faith.

The programme is actually criticised by more traditionalist catholics as not "being catholic enough". They, perhaps, share the dim view on the text of people here.

I suspect the teacher in this case feels that describing the religious education in the school as "all very general" will address your fears. She is doing a disservice - either she's teaching the catholic faith or she's not.

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 03:48PM

Beruthiel wrote: »

Are there only Irish catholic kids going to this school?

Not at all. The principal mentioned to me that there is a COI child who just sits in on religious classes. Clearly that's ok though because the teaching is 'general'.

old hippy · 09-09-2013 03:52PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The teacher was insistent that there is no need as it is 'only general' and integrated throughout the school day. She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

And this is what they do. Bend you to their will, gently. Don't be fooled.

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 04:04PM

He will be sat out. OH and I will make an appointment with the principal and insist upon it. I am not fooled by their 'general' wiffle waffle. I don't want 'general' Christianity any more than specific Christianity shoved down his throat. I have been approaching it very softly and politely so far, but my approach clearly needs to change. I am on night shifts this week which makes it all quite difficult to deal with.

Beruthiel · 09-09-2013 04:05PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I told them when I enrolled him that he is not any religion and will not be doing communion or confirmation. I reiterated that to the principal the other day.

And yet, they are continuing as usual and completely ignoring you.
Personally, I'd be getting the red rage round about now.

I Heart Internet · 09-09-2013 04:11PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

He will be sat out. OH and I will make an appointment with the principal and insist upon it. I am not fooled by their 'general' wiffle waffle. I don't want 'general' Christianity any more than specific Christianity shoved down his throat. I have been approaching it very softly and politely so far, but my approach clearly needs to change. I am on night shifts this week which makes it all quite difficult to deal with.

I'm genuinely curious - do you suspect your stated wishes are being ignored because:

a) the principal and staff want to win a soul (you child's) for the church, or
b) the principal and staff want an easy life and will just carry on, business as usual, until a child's parents really make an issue of it and insist they adapt their systems to deal with the issue?

Something tells me laziness triumphs over zeal for souls for most people.

Cabaal · 09-09-2013 04:15PM

I think its likely a mixture of "ah sure its not a big deal" and laziness,

It's the same thing that causes people to be outrages by the vatican church and to not agree with it, but at the same time continue to christian their kids, go ahead with communions and continue to tick catlick on the census form.

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 04:21PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious - do you suspect your stated wishes are being ignored because:

a) the principal and staff want to win a soul (you child's) for the church, or
b) the principal and staff want an easy life and will just carry on, business as usual, until a child's parents really make an issue of it and insist they adapt their systems to deal with the issue?

Something tells me laziness triumphs over zeal for souls for most people.

B

With a bit of 'sure why would anyone want to do anything differently from how we have always done it?' thrown in. I definitely get a mild sense of 'What is wrong with you? Why can't you just be like everyone else and get on with it. Why on earth are you not just Catholic like the rest of us?'

I Heart Internet · 09-09-2013 04:29PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

B

With a bit of 'sure why would anyone want to do anything differently from how we have always done it?' thrown in. I definitely get a mild sense of 'What is wrong with you? Why can't you just be like everyone else and get on with it. Why on earth are you not just Catholic like the rest of us?'

That's unfortunate OP.

Could you outline what, exactly, you'd like the school to do? Bearing in mind, like it or not, it is a school operating under catholic patronage and ethos.

mohawk · 09-09-2013 04:32PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Like most things, Ireland will only resolve this stuff when it's dragged (kicking and screaming) through the European Courts at some stage in the future.

Until then ... It'll be ah sure it's grand.

You would want to be very brave in bringing a case to Europe. I would expect the following:
Would you look at them bringing a case to Europe. Why can't they get on with it like the rest of us. Who do they think they are?? Sure what harm will it do? I went to a catholic school and it did me no harm.

That doesn't even take into account what the likes of YD or Iona would be saying.

Skrynesaver · 09-09-2013 04:52PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That's unfortunate OP.

Could you outline what, exactly, you'd like the school to do? Bearing in mind, like it or not, it is a school operating under catholic patronage and ethos.

I'd imagine, as it's operating under a government subvention, the OP would like them to stop misrepresenting belief as fact to OP's child. Ideally by restricting this codology to a set time and allowing children who have opted out to do something useful with the time instead.

I Heart Internet · 09-09-2013 05:04PM

Skrynesaver wrote: »

I'd imagine, as it's operating under a government subvention, the OP would like them to stop misrepresenting belief as fact to OP's child. Ideally by restricting this codology to a set time and allowing children who have opted out to do something useful with the time instead.

I think the OP said that they specifically didn't ask to have their child opted out but will now. Perhaps that will go a long way to solving the problem?

smacl · 09-09-2013 05:06PM

Skrynesaver wrote: »

I'd imagine, as it's operating under a government subvention, the OP would like them to stop misrepresenting belief as fact to OP's child. Ideally by restricting this codology to a set time and allowing children who have opted out to do something useful with the time instead.

I think there's also a fear in these establishments of the slippery slope. Once one child opts out, many of his/her mates and their parents will realise that RE is not compulsory and want to opt out too. Sure the place would be crawling with heathens before you could blink

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 05:13PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Somebody did this very helpful analysis of the Alive O programme, covers everything involved so good way of getting to know exactly what any kid will involved in if they use this programme

http://eannajohnson.org/wp/wp-content/.../02/An-Analysis-of-Alive-O-6.doc‎

I have been reading through this.

The more I learn about this religion the worse it gets!

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 05:28PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think the OP said that they specifically didn't ask to have their child opted out but will now. Perhaps that will go a long way to solving the problem?

If you read back you will see that when I enquired about opting him out I was told firstly that religion permeates the school day rather that being a specific subject and secondly that I don't need to worry and there should be no need to opt him out as the teaching is very 'general'.

The reason I was enquiring about opting him out, rather than demanding that it be done, is that I don't yet know and have not yet discussed, what alternative arrangements will be made for my child.

And thanks but I'm well aware that it is a school with a Catholic 'ethos and patronage'. My family however are not Catholic, nor are we Protestant. And the Irish State only provides schools in our area that are appropriate for Catholics or Protestants. No one else. So we don't have a lot of choice really.

gaynorvader · 09-09-2013 05:31PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

If you read back you will see that when I enquired about opting him out I was told firstly that religion permeates the school day rather that being a specific subject and secondly that I don't need to worry and there should be no need to opt him out as the teaching is very 'general'.

The reason I was enquiring about opting him out, rather than demanding that it be done, is that I don't yet know and have not yet discussed, what alternative arrangements will be made for my child.

And thanks but I'm well aware that it is a school with a Catholic 'ethos and patronage'. My family however are not Catholic, nor are we Protestant. And the Irish State only provides schools in our area that are appropriate for Catholics or Protestants. No one else. So we don't have a lot of choice really.

I went to a Protestant school and most of my friends went to a Catholic school. My school seemed to put a lot less emphasis on religion than theirs, but it could have just been my specific school.

Kidchameleon · 09-09-2013 05:32PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

or give your son some really tricky questions (there are at least a few appropriate to 4-5 year olds) about religion which will cause the teacher trouble answering them.

Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this

PopePalpatine · 09-09-2013 05:34PM

It's so sad that the Catholic Church would consider softly indoctrinating our kids. :mad:

And it begins..................

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