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Judge Laffoy saves Denis O'Brien €57,000,000

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24

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    #32
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    (plus costs)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/court-ruling-saves-denis-o-brien-57-million-in-tax-1.1518621



    Absolutely farcical.

    The decision essentially seems to have turned on the fact that O'Brien and his family had turfed the Aga and the kitchen units out of their Ballsbridge home, rendering it 'uninhabitable'.

    Uninhabitable... There are low waged people living in that area who sleep, cook, and live in their one roomed bedsits, paying handsomely in tax from their low wages.

    O'Brien made a decision to renovate a perfectly habitable house, and for this reason, the justice system scribbles out his €60 million tax bill.

    Disgraceful post and highly misrepresentative.
    All the judge did was find that the Revenue Appeals Commissioner had made the correct decision in law!
    The Inspector of Taxes was appealing the finding of the Revenue Appeals Commissioner and failed in that appeal.
    O'Brien did substantially more than rip the aga btw as anyone who had followed the case would know.

    Ms Justice Laffoy said that although 6 Raglan Road was owned by a company controlled by Mr O'Brien, he had no personal link with the property.

    She added that he had not arranged to have the house available to him, and that construction works were under way from June 2000 to February 2002, which would have made the property unfit to be occupied.

    A number of architectural and building experts had considered the property in need of extensive renovation that was not completed until 2002.


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    #33
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    ucd.1985 wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of people wouldn't do the exact same thing to save €57 million.

    What he did, confirmed by both the Appeal Commissioners and the High Court, was 100% legal.

    If you're involved in a deal that side of course you're going to take professional tax advice. Its up to the legislators to make sure that there are no loopholes.

    Maybe our government weren't too busy spending €15,000 in the Dail bar whilst debating legislation things like this wouldn't happen as much.

    DOB is FG's biggest financial backer


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    #34
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    donegal__road wrote: »
    DOB is FG's biggest financial backer

    really, you have evidence of this?
    FF were in Government when these decisions were made.


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    #35
    KwackerJack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭KwackerJack


    I think ill become a fraud business man or a drug dealer on the dole.

    Seems to be a better and safer way of life.....in Ireland anyhow!

    Once your in with the 'In crowd' your grand, but if your a peasant living in a little house paying your taxes and living a normal life your a nobody and if you step out of line they destroy you!

    Is it any wonder we've become so selfish, is it any wonder our brightest and best our fleeing our little Island!

    Only way to live happy in this country is to be a criminal or a filthy rich business man with our leaders in his pockets!


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    #36
    TommiesTank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭TommiesTank


    Very surprised at the lack of impartiality from Cody here, he clearly has an axe to grind.


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    #37
    Aidric
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,599 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    ucd.1985 wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of people wouldn't do the exact same thing to save €57 million.

    What he did, confirmed by both the Appeal Commissioners and the High Court, was 100% legal.

    If you're involved in a deal that side of course you're going to take professional tax advice. Its up to the legislators to make sure that there are no loopholes.

    Maybe our government weren't too busy spending €15,000 in the Dail bar whilst debating legislation things like this wouldn't happen as much.

    Yep, but that won't appease the rabble rousers. Tax accountants are operating within the legal parameters afforded them and any right thinking businessman is going to use them to his benefit.

    Direct your anger towards the legislators.


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    #38
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    TommiesTank wrote: »
    Very surprised at the lack of impartiality from Cody here, he clearly has an axe to grind.

    With you on that, blaming a judge for upholding the law.


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    #39
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    really, you have evidence of this?
    FF were in Government when these decisions were made.

    google it.. too many links to post here


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    #40
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    donegal__road wrote: »
    google it.. too many links to post here

    I'll take that as a NO then, thought so!

    As I said FF were in power when this happened , not FG.


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    #41
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    thebaz wrote: »
    on what grounds or why, was she promoted (installed) to the Supreme Court ?
    There's no doubt but that Laffoy has enough intellectual acuity to hold office as a Judge. But, of course, there are lots of able and intelligent people of whom you could say the same thing, who have not been appointed to the bench. Laffoy, of course, is a FGer and was appointed to both the High Court and the Supreme Court by Fine Gael Governments. That's more of a criticism of Fine Gael's lazy decision making than it is, necessarily, a dismissal of the woman's own abilities.

    I'm not trying to suggest she is not competent. I'm just suggesting that she has arrived at some really unfortunate, highly questionable decisions. In some cases... Fyffe, Mr A, we have been saved from those decisions by the Supreme Court. I think her appointment to the Supreme Court is bewildering for a number of reasons.
    ucd.1985 wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of people wouldn't do the exact same thing to save €57 million.
    I have no doubt about this either. The difficulty is not with Denis O'Brien's initial appeal, but with the determination of the Revenue Appeal Commissioner and the High Court's emphatic vindication of that decision , including the basis upon which the decision was arrived at.
    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    O'Brien did substantially more than rip the aga btw as anyone who had followed the case would know.
    The previous occupiers of 6 Raglan Road outlined in their testimony how, when they sold their home (reluctantly, I gather), it was a comfortable, very habitable mansion.

    The Double taxation convention applies"
    2. ...an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined as follows:

    (a) he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both Contracting States, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the Contracting State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);

    In my opinion, Judge laffoy placed inappropriate emphasis on the discretionary nature of the improvements made to the house in deciding that the house on Raglan Road was not a permanent home "available to" Denis O Brien. It was a house in his possession which by his will he was in the process of making more desirable to his taste. And yes, that includes turfing out the Aga and the kitchen units.

    This is an unrealistic and frankly silly interpretation of the law, including when taken in light of the case law opened to the court, by Mr O'Brien's neighbour Judge Laffoy.


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    #42
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    There's no doubt but that Laffoy has enough intellectual acuity to hold office as a Judge. But, of course, there are lots of able and intelligent people of whom you could say the same thing, who have not been appointed to the bench. Laffoy, of course, is a FGer and was appointed to both the High Court and the Supreme Court by Fine Gael Governments. That's more of a criticism of Fine Gael's lazy decision making than it is, necessarily, a dismissal of the woman's own abilities.



    This is an unrealistic and frankly silly interpretation of the law, including when taken in light of the case law opened to the court, by Mr O'Brien's neighbour Judge Laffoy.

    Those two statements are disgraceful especially the latter which clearly seeks to impugn the integrity of the Judge and clearly infers that she swayed by the fact the she is allegedly Mr O'Brien's neighbour (though since he is a resident of Portugal I fail to see how that can be).

    I trust that once Judge Laffoy becomes aware of the nature of these allegations she will take action on them.


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    #43
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Those two statements are disgraceful especially the latter which clearly seeks to impugn the integrity of the Judge and clearly infers that she swayed by the fact the she is allegedly Mr O'Brien's neighbour (though since he is a resident of Portugal I fail to see how that can be).
    O Brien took up residence in Ballsbridge around 2003 or 2004. The fact that Laffoy is his neighbour is incidental; the fact that many judicial appointments are political is not.


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    #44
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    O Brien took up residence in Ballsbridge around 2003 or 2004. The fact that Laffoy is his neighbour is incidental; the fact that many judicial appointments are political is not.

    But not so incidental that you needed throw it out there as a poorly veiled inference of Judicial misconduct.
    I'm very surprised Cody, usually I welcome your posts, but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about this particular judge and I believe you have crossed a line.


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    #45
    ucd.1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 875 ✭✭✭ucd.1985


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    In my opinion, Judge laffoy placed inappropriate emphasis on the discretionary nature of the improvements made to the house in deciding that the house on Raglan Road was not a permanent home "available to" Denis O Brien.

    I disagree, and obviously his advisors were comfortable that a house under rennovation could not be classed a habitable home, never mind a permanent home available to DO'B.

    If there was a possibility of this they would have ensured that the house was rented out for the period concerned.


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    #46
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    I'm sure the story will be examined in full in tomorrow's Sunday Independent. And on Today fm and Newstalk during the week.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #47
    Hootanany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,479 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    I wonder what Football team she supports now?


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    #48
    user040913
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 17 ✭user040913


    bleg wrote: »

    There are still plenty of reasons to dislike Denis O'Brien though. He's from Cork and was found to have bribed politicians.

    This country would be nothing without Cork.


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    #49
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    Excellent judgement.

    Best thing for the economy is to have the individual keep the money he/she earned.

    Government will just end up wasting it on some garbage/overpriced public program or put it to that black hole of debt.


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    #50
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    Excellent judgement.

    Best thing for the economy is to have the individual keep the money he/she earned.

    Government will just end up wasting it on some garbage/overpriced public program or put it to that black hole of debt.

    Did you ever think of having a reality check.


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    #51
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    user040913 wrote: »
    This country would be nothing without Cork.

    That is the problem, we had an idiot from Cork who was elected Tshirt, he and Martin O'Donahue made a complete bolli(k$ out of the country. Look after your own little town. Ye are not capable of leadership.


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    #52
    Elbaston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 443 ✭✭Elbaston


    Theres one thing he cant play his way out of.


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    #53
    Hootanany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,479 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    Elbaston wrote: »
    Theres one thing he cant play his way out of.

    Which is?


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    #54
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,120 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    Excellent judgement.

    Best thing for the economy is to have the individual keep the money he/she earned.

    Government will just end up wasting it on some garbage/overpriced public program or put it to that black hole of debt.

    yup, some overpriced/garbage public program, like say disabalities services for adults - alot of adult day services being cut all over ireland through lack of funding- €57m would go a long long way..

    (although agree that chances are would just gone straight into our bottomless pit of debt)


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    #55
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    wprathead wrote: »
    yup, some overpriced/garbage public program, like say disabalities services for adults - alot of adult day services being cut all over ireland through lack of funding- €57m would go a long long way..

    (although agree that chances are would just gone straight into our bottomless pit of debt)


    They closed a ward in Our Lady's Hospital for sick children back in 2008, because the government refused to allocate €9.5 million needed to keep it open.

    Thats just one of approx 1,000 examples Im sure we could all think of.


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    #56
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    No it's not, but ridiculous decisions like this (and this is not the woman's first absurd judgement), create that impression and deplete confidence in the justice system.

    Laffoy caused a constitutional crisis in 2006 when she let a sex offender out of prison, and said she was unconcerned with the "appalling vista" of other sex offenders being similarly released. Thankfully that decision that was later overturned by the Supreme Court.

    But it's OK, Fine Gael have installed her in the Supreme Court now too.

    On both occasions she applied the law as it stood without regard to the unpopular nature of the decisions. That's good judging.

    If hate to live in a world where judges just ignored the law in favour of popularity, because once they've finished with the businessmen, sex offenders and any other group they don't like, what's to stop them coming after me?

    We either live in a nation of laws or we don't, and I think Ms Justice Laffoy is one of our best judges because she understands this.

    Besides, it's not her making this decision for the first time - the revenue commissioners own appeals system have already made this decision and she is merely affirming that it is correct in law.


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    #57
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    wprathead wrote: »
    yup, some overpriced/garbage public program, like say disabalities services for adults - alot of adult day services being cut all over ireland through lack of funding- €57m would go a long long way..

    (although agree that chances are would just gone straight into our bottomless pit of debt)

    But that €57 was never ours nor ever going to be ours. DOB lives abroad for tax purposes but comes back here as often as he can within the rules. You tighten up those rules and he's not going to decide to pay tax here - he's just not going to come here as often.


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    #58
    Marcusm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    There's no doubt but that Laffoy has enough intellectual acuity to hold office as a Judge. But, of course, there are lots of able and intelligent people of whom you could say the same thing, who have not been appointed to the bench. Laffoy, of course, is a FGer and was appointed to both the High Court and the Supreme Court by Fine Gael Governments. That's more of a criticism of Fine Gael's lazy decision making than it is, necessarily, a dismissal of the woman's own abilities.

    I'm not trying to suggest she is not competent. I'm just suggesting that she has arrived at some really unfortunate, highly questionable decisions. In some cases... Fyffe, Mr A, we have been saved from those decisions by the Supreme Court. I think her appointment to the Supreme Court is bewildering for a number of reasons.


    I have no doubt about this either. The difficulty is not with Denis O'Brien's initial appeal, but with the determination of the Revenue Appeal Commissioner and the High Court's emphatic vindication of that decision , including the basis upon which the decision was arrived at.

    The previous occupiers of 6 Raglan Road outlined in their testimony how, when they sold their home (reluctantly, I gather), it was a comfortable, very habitable mansion.

    The Double taxation convention applies"



    In my opinion, Judge laffoy placed inappropriate emphasis on the discretionary nature of the improvements made to the house in deciding that the house on Raglan Road was not a permanent home "available to" Denis O Brien. It was a house in his possession which by his will he was in the process of making more desirable to his taste. And yes, that includes turfing out the Aga and the kitchen units.

    This is an unrealistic and frankly silly interpretation of the law, including when taken in light of the case law opened to the court, by Mr O'Brien's neighbour Judge Laffoy.

    Even if the house was habitable, would it not also be necessary to pierce the corporate veil to determine that it was available to him? If you can get that far, I'm sure he had plenty of other habitable investment properties in Ireland at the time. None I suspect would have approached the nature of permanent home. Indeed it's surprising that, in the circumstances, he did not ensure that the Raglan Road home was let out at the time.


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    #59
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    But that €57 was never ours nor ever going to be ours. DOB lives abroad for tax purposes but comes back here as often as he can within the rules. You tighten up those rules and he's not going to decide to pay tax here - he's just not going to come here as often.

    If he doesnt pay tax here, why would we want him here? To hover up state contracts that should go to people who do actually pay tax here? (and not dance the Avoidance shuffle)


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    #60
    Weevil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Weevil


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »

    We either live in a nation of laws or we don't, and I think Ms Justice Laffoy is one of our best judges because she understands this.

    :eek:


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    #61
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    ucd.1985 wrote: »
    I disagree, and obviously his advisors were comfortable that a house under rennovation could not be classed a habitable home, never mind a permanent home available to DO'B.

    If there was a possibility of this they would have ensured that the house was rented out for the period concerned.
    She should have used the definition of a habitable home used by the revenue commissioners, namely being able to get access to running water and connected to electricity. Not actually connected but the capacity to be connected.


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