Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 Mod request post#5808

T-K-O · 05-09-2013 02:05PM

Gerrard / Lucas / Henderson is fine for now. Moses can fight it out for a front 3 position.

billy2012 · 05-09-2013 02:11PM

Tiago Ilori 1st interview -

I am pie · 05-09-2013 02:15PM

I hope Allen follows this recent trend of having a prolonged dodgy spell and suddenly starting to improve a la Henderson and Lucas before him. Maybe he scudded his chances of an Anfield career turnaround by being half decent in his first few months whereas the other were rotten at first.

Grayditch · 05-09-2013 02:30PM

"I hope I can keep winning at Anfield" Ya cheeky baxter, haha.

Kerrigooney · 05-09-2013 02:41PM

Sturridge is out of the England game. Hopefully he's ok for the Swansea game.

mike65 · 05-09-2013 02:44PM

He was never going to make that match. He'll be grand by the 16th, I'm sure. *cough*

slingerz · 05-09-2013 02:53PM

5starpool wrote: »

On future team lineups, surely a midfield comprising of Gerrard and Lucas only with Moses, Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho in some kind of attacking foursome, would be quite exposed? It may work against some teams, but I feel that an extra midfield body in a lot of the away games, and some of the home games will be needed. I'm hoping that Henderson doesn't get immediately dropped in favour of Moses (especially before Suarez comes back) as his energy will be missed. Even when not playing especially well, he is a constant buzz and annoyance in the middle third and adds a threat as well.

I think this is why I'm not convinced on Moses. He can do a job alright, but I don't think he is sufficient in quality to make up for the absence of a Henderson (or playing well Allen) in the side. I know they don't work in the same areas, but it is that extra midfield position that will be sacrificed when Suarez/Coutinho/Sturridge are all available if they want to bring in Moses. It could fix what isn't broke essentially.

I think when playing at Anfield a combo of Lucas/Gerrard with the front 4 of Coutinho, Moses, Suarez and Sturridge is fine unless its one of the stronger teams. In fairness both Coutinho and Suarez put in a shift when they play and Im sure Moses will as well.

I think its when playing away to a rival that Moses might be used over Coutinho

KingJamsie · 05-09-2013 02:58PM

billy2012 wrote: »

Tiago Ilori 1st interview -

good signing...seems like an arsehole??

Grayditch · 05-09-2013 03:17PM

Some people were saying Sakho would be sufficient back up for Lucas.

What about back up for Mignolet? :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzENhOhowiw

05-09-2013 03:19PM

5starpool wrote: »

On future team lineups, surely a midfield comprising of Gerrard and Lucas only with Moses, Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho in some kind of attacking foursome, would be quite exposed? It may work against some teams, but I feel that an extra midfield body in a lot of the away games, and some of the home games will be needed. I'm hoping that Henderson doesn't get immediately dropped in favour of Moses (especially before Suarez comes back) as his energy will be missed. Even when not playing especially well, he is a constant buzz and annoyance in the middle third and adds a threat as well.

I think this is why I'm not convinced on Moses. He can do a job alright, but I don't think he is sufficient in quality to make up for the absence of a Henderson (or playing well Allen) in the side. I know they don't work in the same areas, but it is that extra midfield position that will be sacrificed when Suarez/Coutinho/Sturridge are all available if they want to bring in Moses. It could fix what isn't broke essentially.

I have mentioned this a few times. Agree entirely.

Nuri Sahin · 05-09-2013 03:36PM

G.K. wrote: »

Esp when they're poor stats like the ones that we heard were used by Comolli to look at players.

Indeed. Think the basis of signing Downing was centered around a couple of stats was it not?

Morzadec · 05-09-2013 03:52PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

I have mentioned this a few times. Agree entirely.

For me Moses comes in for Aspas initially, who has been easily our least impressive outfield starter in the 3 matches so far.

When Suarez comes back, I would hop it's at Henderson's expense for the majority of home games and away games where we feel we have enough in midfield.

Otherwise, Coutinho or Moses (depending on form) would have to make way for Henderson against bigger teams.

Lucas and Gerrard are doing a sterling job so far in terms of keeping things ticking over when on the ball, and being strong, disciplined and effective off it

G.K. · 05-09-2013 04:03PM

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Indeed. Think the basis of signing Downing was centered around a couple of stats was it not?

Indeed. My aeging mind forgets which particular ones were involved, but I remember thinking at the time that they were the kind of stats that were useless without context, and Comolli was purchasing without taking into account the different playing styles of Liverpool and the other clubs.

Charlie Adam was the main one. He got such favourable stats in terms of numbers of chances created and long passes and whatever because everything went through him constantly, he had 2 DM's including the very underrated (in my book) David Vaughan doing dirty work for him so he was free to do whatever he liked, and he had set pieces.

Morzadec · 05-09-2013 04:08PM

G.K. wrote: »

Indeed. My aeging mind forgets which particular ones were involved, but I remember thinking at the time that they were the kind of stats that were useless without context, and Comolli was purchasing without taking into account the different playing styles of Liverpool and the other clubs.

Charlie Adam was the main one. He got such favourable stats in terms of numbers of chances created and long passes and whatever because everything went through him constantly, he had 2 DM's including the very underrated (in my book) David Vaughan doing dirty work for him so he was free to do whatever he liked, and he had set pieces.

'Chance creation' I think was the stat that Adam, Henderson and Downing were all really high on the season previous to signing them.

Kess73 · 05-09-2013 04:20PM

G.K. wrote: »

Indeed. My aeging mind forgets which particular ones were involved, but I remember thinking at the time that they were the kind of stats that were useless without context, and Comolli was purchasing without taking into account the different playing styles of Liverpool and the other clubs.

Charlie Adam was the main one. He got such favourable stats in terms of numbers of chances created and long passes and whatever because everything went through him constantly, he had 2 DM's including the very underrated (in my book) David Vaughan doing dirty work for him so he was free to do whatever he liked, and he had set pieces.

Your ageing mind?

Would hate to know what you regard as old. Actually I don't want to know what you regard as being old as it might hurt my feelings.

Good post though, and one I completely agree with.

I think all the six main purchases during the Kenny/Comolli were based on stats without any other sort of context around them.

Suarez
Carroll
Downing
Adam
Henderson
Enrique

All six were players who would have scored very well in terms of stats for their position for the six to 12 months prior to being bought by Liverpool. But it would appear checking to see what, if anything, aided each player in getting those stats was overlooked.

I love stats myself, and can spend hours just pouring over facts and figures, but without an attempt to understand how exactly the stats came about in the first place, stats in themselves are often just window dressing.

Jason Todd · 05-09-2013 04:22PM

I'm not 100% but weren't Downing, Adam, Carroll and Henderson all voted POTY for their respective clubs just before we bought them too?

G.K. · 05-09-2013 04:22PM

Oh yeah, Adam 'created a chance' every 38 minutes. No small surprise given that Blackpool's only move was to play through him.

Oranage2 · 05-09-2013 04:27PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Your ageing mind?

Would hate to know what you regard as old. Actually I don't want to know what you regard as being old as it might hurt my feelings.

Good post though, and one I completely agree with.

I think all the six main purchases during the Kenny/Comolli were based on stats without any other sort of context around them.

Suarez
Carroll
Downing
Adam
Henderson
Enrique

All six were players who would have scored very well in terms of stats for their position for the six to 12 months prior to being bought by Liverpool. But it would appear checking to see what, if anything, aided each player in getting those stats was overlooked.

I love stats myself, and can spend hours just pouring over facts and figures, but without an attempt to understand how exactly the stats came about in the first place, stats in themselves are often just window dressing.

Stats are all well and good until you wake up to a team with adam, Henderson, Carroll and downing.

Though like you said kess, stats are a dangerous thing, look at someone like kalou, excellent stats, rubbish player.

G.K. · 05-09-2013 04:29PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Your ageing mind?

Would hate to know what you regard as old. Actually I don't want to know what you regard as being old as it might hurt my feelings.

Wondered who'd pick up on that. :P

Mickalus · 05-09-2013 04:29PM

Courtesy Flush wrote: »

Hes not particularly cut out for captain either
I wish the club would unburden him and just let him play

I'd love to hear your reasoning for that.

billy2012 · 05-09-2013 04:36PM

Nuri Sahin · 05-09-2013 04:40PM

billy2012 wrote: »

Popped up in my timeline last night. Ended up watching the MOTD highlights soon after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOpLPed4ngc

As much as I've criticised Reina over the past few years, that save in extra time is my favourite save of his. No right to get his fingertips to it.

Both Gerrard's goals were stunners, Cisse didn't get the credit he deserved. Unreal finish.

I miss Cardiff

Thrill · 05-09-2013 04:42PM

Apologies if posted already, Alan Hansen is retiring from MOTD after 22 years

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/news/a512748/alan-hansen-to-retire-from-match-of-the-day-after-22-years.html

Hansen said: "I've been in football for 41 years and I'm going out right at the top, just as I did at Liverpool.

"The plan was always that I would retire at 55. I kept going, but I finally decided to retire during Euro 2012."

The commentator will depart the programme following next year's World Cup in Brazil.

I am pie · 05-09-2013 04:53PM

The problem with moneyball stats and football is that in baseball players operate in a more individualistic way, a pitcher works alone, a batter hits alone, field positions are much more static and interaction with team mates is more limited. Football is too dynamic for stats to work without context and traditional scouting. Context is everything, may times on a football pitch a players stats are augmented artificially by unseen work of players around them. An extremely talented player can often leave space for a less talented player whose stats benefit or a team can lean to heavily on using one player pushing everything through them. Also, the criteria for a successful pass (sideways to and direct to player with 3 men around him, in trouble as soon as he gets the ball vs the same pass in the same area of the pitch played into space allowing the player to run onto it and past his 3 markers) or a chance (a cross belted with so much pace it clips off the head of a CF and goes high and wide vs the same cross with less pace goes into space but the CF made the wrong run) are often not 100% refective of what good play is.

TLDR. Agreed, stats are irrelevant without understanding of how they work in a team context. We'll never see a truly successful moneyball operation in football with solid scouting and understanding how failed passes, dribbles, crosses etc might not be failures in another team with more intelligent players playing a different system. Buy players, not stats.

Blo0dy Downing & Adam.

Agueroooo · 05-09-2013 04:53PM

Oh its easy to forget just how good Steven Gerrard is/was.

What I wouldn't do to have that Gerrard this season with the creative talent we have now around him .
I am not saying he aint any good now (far from it) but that Gerrard in that cup final video was the best in the World in '05/'06.

joe123 · 05-09-2013 04:55PM

Can someone point me in the right direction to watch the highlights of the liverpool united game again?

Agueroooo · 05-09-2013 05:00PM

joe123 wrote: »

Can someone point me in the right direction to watch the highlights of the liverpool united game again?

http://www.101greatgoals.com/goals/england/liverpool-v-manchester-united-team-sheets/

Nuri Sahin · 05-09-2013 05:03PM

Ibe just scored on his Englad U19 debut.

05-09-2013 05:05PM

Adam cost little compared to others, under £7m iirc and we got back £4m.

Should never have been signed but as mistakes go, he was far from the worst.

Also the way we set up never suited him.

Remember him in a 2 man midfield? :eek:

Pilsbury Doughboy · 05-09-2013 05:12PM

Knex. wrote: »

I'm still pissed at Downing for that stupid fucking "Shh" celebration he did, tbh.

This must have passed me by, what game was this? Any footage about?

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 Mod request post#5808

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