"Irish" names on wikipedia

Míshásta · 05-09-2013 12:58AM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

why can't all the gaelgoirs just die already

And may you also have a long and happy life, my friend.

My name is URL · 05-09-2013 01:00AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What about others taking it upon themselves to change how to refer to someone?

Yeah, that's obviously a bit fcuked up. I'd like to see some examples of it happening, unchallenged; on Wikipedia though.. before getting too worked up about it.

feargale · 05-09-2013 01:10AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We had to learn Irish. .

I've always believed it a terrible mistake to impose it on peopke who had no interest in it. But do you think the teacher should therefore have treated you differently to others, or let you and others dictate how the class should be conducted?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A person's name and identity is by definition a very important part of who they are. A teacher or any other person for that matter has no right to call the child by a name they do not want to be called. .

So the German teacher must always refer to the pupil by the English version of their name?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By your logic if you were working for me I could call you anything I like because I'm your boss in the workplace. .

Come now. Adults have rights, as well as responsibilities and obligations, that children don't have,

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They will eventually.

So will the corncrake and much else that we grew up with if some people have their way.
I have to get some sleep now. Good night,

feargale · 05-09-2013 01:16AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

@feargale, Actually I had an Irish teacher who used to insist on calling us by the translation of our names no matter how much I wouldn't respond to him. Anyway I kicked up a fuss with the principal and the teacher dropped it. Obviously didn't think it was worth the effort.

It wouldn't be the first time a teacher gave up on a pupil.
I'm happy for you if that's the biggest problem you ever had with Irish class or any other class. Re. Irish I had a primary teacher who beat the livin' bejaysus out of us day after day, and one or two secondary teachers who weren't very nice either. If it weren't for one inspiring teacher that I was lucky to have I would possibly be as antagonistic as some of you to Irish. None of my family, incidentally, has the slightest interest in Irish. Consequently I don't eat and drink it but like the occasional opportunity that presents itself to practice it, We live and let live. I don't tell them that they are grievously lacking and they don't tell me that I'm a fanatic.

Iwasfrozen · 05-09-2013 02:55AM

feargale wrote: »

I've always believed it a terrible mistake to impose it on peopke who had no interest in it. But do you think the teacher should therefore have treated you differently to others, or let you and others dictate how the class should be conducted?

It's not a case of disrupting the class on the pupil's behalf but preserving his right to self identification. The right to maintain my cultural and linguistic identity thrumps whatever ideology my teacher was pushing.

So the German teacher must always refer to the pupil by the English version of their name?

That's different though because the german student chooses to be there. On the other hand I did German for 6 years with many different teachers and not one of them felt the need to change my name. They seem to be a lot less zealous then Irish teachers. Perhaps because they know their language isn't nearing extinction. I don't know but it was a much nicer atmosphere in that classroom.

Come now. Adults have rights, as well as responsibilities and obligations, that children don't have,

I would have thought he right to a cultural and linguistic identity was a human, not an adult right. Also there are adults in secondary school.

Iwasfrozen · 05-09-2013 03:00AM

feargale wrote: »

It wouldn't be the first time a teacher gave up on a pupil.

Meh, I got to where I needed to. No thanks to him. I wouldn't give him the time of day today.

feargale wrote: »

I'm happy for you if that's the biggest problem you ever had with Irish class or any other class. Re. Irish I had a primary teacher who beat the livin' bejaysus out of us day after day, and one or two secondary teachers who weren't very nice either. If it weren't for one inspiring teacher that I was lucky to have I would possibly be as antagonistic as some of you to Irish.

Christ I'm glad I didn't live in your day.

feargale wrote: »

None of my family, incidentally, has the slightest interest in Irish. Consequently I don't eat and drink it but like the occasional opportunity that presents itself to practice it, We live and let live. I don't tell them that they are grievously lacking and they don't tell me that I'm a fanatic.

If only others would follow your example.

COYVB · 05-09-2013 03:01AM

Míshásta wrote: »

It may be the name on your birth cert. but it's not your name in Irish anymore than it's your name in Russian or Greek.

It is. My name is Peter. In Irish it's Peter too. In French it's Peter. In Martian, it'd be Peter as well.

However, the French equivalent for my name is Pierre and the Irish one is Peadar. Neither of those are my name though. If I moved to France, my name would still be Peter

AngryHippie · 05-09-2013 03:12AM

I was pretty surprised when I discovered that I had an Irish spelling of my name. Saorbhreathach. I had always been called Justin in roll call at Primary school even though they changed everyone else to their Irish name.
At a guess I would think that the teacher who enlightened me was pretty familiar, as he studied at the Sorbonne,and spoke about 8 languages with relative fluidity.
The translation of names doesn't really bother me either way tbh, but it might alienate some of our more recent arrivals...

Insect Overlord · 05-09-2013 04:29AM

I still haven't seen any links to edited Wikipedia articles...

FanadMan · 05-09-2013 05:17AM

On my birth cert my name is John but as soon as I went to primary school (a gaelscoil) I was named Sean. And my surname was translated to Gaelic too. To this day there are still people that greet me by my Gaelic name. Doesn't bother me too much. However, when I went to secondary school, I refused to respond to friends from primary school when they greeted me as Sean

LordSutch · 05-09-2013 07:04AM

Neither my Surname or Christian name are of gaelic origin, yet in primary school I was given 'gaelic' equivalents, neither of which stuck, than God. I remember at the time being annoyed at my Christian name in particular being changed into something it wasn't. My Surname got the usual O' treatment.
As regards Wiki, I think it can be used as a manipulative tool by people who want to make 'their' point.

brandon_flowers · 05-09-2013 07:07AM

Whatever about wikipedia it is fierce handy to have your name written in Irish on FB and Twitter so recruiters and companies can't find you...

Grayson · 05-09-2013 07:14AM

The name changing pisses me off. I have a Jewish (biblical) first name but of course in school it was changed. My surname is norman. It's the only surname in the english language that hasn't changed spelling in 800 years. That doesn't matter to an irish teacher. They'll just take some vowels, mess them around a bit and say that's my name.

Grayson · 05-09-2013 07:16AM

Míshásta wrote: »

Well you may be confused.

Do you know anything of your history? Names have been hopping from Irish to English, and English to Irish on this island for 800 years.

I don't know if you're really looking for an answer to your questions - but here goes. There are various ways names are changed from one language to another: a translation of the meaning, a simple change of orthography, or a change of pronunciation to suit the second language and a suitable spelling.

As I pointed out in another post it is not nowadays the convention to change names from another language, but it could be done. Of the list you gave there are already long established Irish forms of some.

Neville for instance could have come from the original Irish "Ó Nía" or it could be the English surname "Neville" which actually comes from the French Neue Ville.

Devereux derives from Norman French as well "De Evreux " - Irish form "Déarbhrús"

Cromwell has been "Cromaill" to Irish speakers since his famous visit to our fair isle some time ago.

"Chin" - I assume you're talking about our friend down in the Chinese. I wonder how they anglicised that? But if you wanted an authentic Irish version I suppose you could go with "Ór" as the name means "gold"

Not mine.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2013 09:30AM

awec wrote: »

I find this pretty weird / outright nuts tbh.

I don't think you can just translate your name to Irish and then pretend that's your name. The opposite doesn't work either.

A name is a name, it is exactly the same in every language. If you're called John then you're called John in English, Irish, French, German, Russian etc. It doesn't magically change to Sean at any point.

No one is pretending its their name.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2013 09:31AM

COYVB wrote: »

It is. My name is Peter. In Irish it's Peter too. In French it's Peter. In Martian, it'd be Peter as well.

However, the French equivalent for my name is Pierre and the Irish one is Peadar. Neither of those are my name though. If I moved to France, my name would still be Peter

You've contradicted yourself but I get your point.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2013 09:51AM

Míshásta wrote: »

John, English version/form/translation of Jean

Jean, French version/form/translation of Juan

Juan, Spanish version/form/translation of Ivan

Ivan, Russian version/form/translation of Hans

Hans, German version/form/translation of Evan

Evan, Welsh version/form/translation of blah, blah, blah......

And it's nearly one am.

Thats a relevant point.

Are we principally talking about surnames or Christian names.

Most common Irish language Christian names, especially for boys, are Irish language translations of names that came here via the English or the Normans.

So we have Sean, Peadar, Seamus, Tomas (with a fada) and so on. And Aine, Maire, Caitlin etc.

Then there are Irish names that originate in Ireland, (and I'm not exactly sure of the provenance of these but I think they are all of Irish origin)
Boys: Darragh, Conor, Rory, Brian, Aiden, Fergal
Girls: Deirdre, Grainne, Maeve, Niamh, Eithne, the much derided Gobnait, a name that doesnt suit English but in my view sounds very nice in Irish.

Here is what I think.

The guy who says his name in Peter, whether in Irish or English or French.....thats fair enough.

But if your name is in the latter category - say Rory - and you wanted people talking Irish to you to call you Rory instead of Ruairi.....which is the original form of the name that Rory derives from.....
.....to me, that would be like a French person taking a name that is originally French like Antoine or Alain, and asking instead that in France he be known as Anthony or Alan. In other words, denying your heritage.

Thats a personal choice.

purplepanda · 05-09-2013 12:57PM

Míshásta wrote: »

Well you may be confused.

Do you know anything of your history? Names have been hopping from Irish to English, and English to Irish on this island for 800 years.

Neville for instance could have come from the original Irish "Ó Nía" or it could be the English surname "Neville" which actually comes from the French Neue Ville.

Devereux derives from Norman French as well "De Evreux " - Irish form "Déarbhrús"

Cromwell has been "Cromaill" to Irish speakers since his famous visit to our fair isle some time ago.

"Chin" - I assume you're talking about our friend down in the Chinese. I wonder how they anglicised that? But if you wanted an authentic Irish version I suppose you could go with "Ór" as the name means "gold"

Actually all of those names are prominent in South Wexford & it's actually Lee Chin a Wexford Hurling player who has a Wexford mother & Chinese father.

If people lived in the Gaeltacht then there might be a reason to change peoples surnames but many people in other parts find it patronising including
family of mine. Many have memories of Irish being beaten into them at school by sadistic brutal teachers brought in from outside.

Ireland also has a long established culture of English speaking, in the case of South Wexford Yola, but according to the Gaelic Language tendency we should forget about our historical past & pretend we are on the west coast of Ireland.

Speaking Irish doesn't make you more Irish than those that speak only English in Ireland, English is an official language of Ireland. Much to the horror of some. :pac:

Irish patriots in 1798 executed Irish speaking Loyalist troops for atrocities carried out against the local population in Wexford. Those patriots spoke Yola & English.

I'd wager that more Irish patriots have spoke English over the last 300 years than Irish.

Welsh speakers don't have the same patronising attitudes & the numbers speaking the language are increasing. I've learnt more Welsh phrases than Irish because people there are more welcoming to those that express an interest.

I have a cousin married to a local living in the Dingle Gaeltacht who can't speak a word of Irish. She's lived there 30 years :rolleyes:

brandon_flowers · 05-09-2013 02:14PM

purplepanda wrote: »

I have a cousin married to a local living in the Dingle Gaeltacht who can't speak a word of Irish. She's lived there 30 years :rolleyes:

Sorry but that says more about your cousin than the language.

Iwasfrozen · 05-09-2013 02:58PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

But if your name is in the latter category - say Rory - and you wanted people talking Irish to you to call you Rory instead of Ruairi.....which is the original form of the name that Rory derives from.....
.....to me, that would be like a French person taking a name that is originally French like Antoine or Alain, and asking instead that in France he be known as Anthony or Alan. In other words, denying your heritage.

Thats a personal choice.

Oh come now what nonsense is this, if Irish was his mother language you may have a point. But how can a native English speaker, choosing to use the English version of his name possibly be considered denying his heritage? It's not denying your heritage to refuse to take up another language.

My name is of Latin origin, as such there's a translation of the name in nearly every European language, Irish included. But I am not an Irish or Latin speaker, I'm an English speaker and that defines my cultural and linguistical identity. By insisting my name be changed whilst speaking Irish you are effectively dictating to me what my linguistical and cultural identity should be. And because of that you can shove your pretentious domineering ideals.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2013 03:04PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh come now what nonsense is this, if Irish was his mother language you may have a point. But how can a native English speaker, choosing to use the English version of his name possibly be considered denying his heritage? It's not denying your heritage to refuse to take up another language.

My name is of Latin origin, as such there's a translation of the name in nearly every European language, Irish included. But I am not an Irish or Latin speaker, I'm an English speaker and that defines my cultural and linguistical identity. By insisting my name be changed whilst speaking Irish you are effectively dictating to me what my linguistical and cultural identity should be. And because of that you can shove your pretentious domineering ideals.

Its just an opinion, lighten up.

My point is - Rory is an anglicized version of an Irish name - therefore if one is speaking Irish, one should use the Irish version. I'm not coming around to people's houses and beating it into them. I'm just expressing an opinion.

You disagree, thats fine. No need for the aggression.

Iwasfrozen · 05-09-2013 03:14PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its just an opinion, lighten up.

My point is - Rory is an anglicized version of an Irish name - therefore if one is speaking Irish, one should use the Irish version. I'm not coming around to people's houses and beating it into them. I'm just expressing an opinion.

You disagree, thats fine. No need for the aggression.

Fair enough I just know the frustration when some pompous gaelgeoir tries to tell me what my name is.

But what about if people aren't speaking Irish, what if the name that is changed is between two other people speaking Irish? For example the poster who a few posts back claimed the Irish army referred to Queen Elizabeth during her visit as Banríon Eilís. A woman who has no connection with the Irish language.

Similarly in several classes we have problems where English speaking students names are being forcibly translated from English to Irish. Denying the child their cultural and linguistical identities as English speakers.

Wibbs · 05-09-2013 03:56PM

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Sorry but that says more about your cousin than the language.

Yes and no. It also shows that she doesn't require it enough to learn it even in that environment. It would be significantly more difficult to live in say Brazil for 30 years married to a local and not be able to speak at least some Portuguese.

P. Breathnach · 05-09-2013 04:34PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes and no. It also shows that she doesn't require it enough to learn it even in that environment....

There still are pockets in the Dingle Gaeltacht where Irish is truly the first language of the people (and others, including Dingle, where it hasn't been so for several generations). If she lives in a genuine Gaeltacht community and insists on using English, she is as much deserving of criticism as are those gaelgóirí who seek to impose Irish on people in the Galltacht.

Iwasfrozen · 05-09-2013 04:37PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There still are pockets in the Dingle Gaeltacht where Irish is truly the first language of the people (and others, including Dingle, where it hasn't been so for several generations). If she lives in a genuine Gaeltacht community and insists on using English, she is as much deserving of criticism as are those gaelgóirí who seek to impose Irish on people in the Galltacht.

Genuine Gaeltachts are very hard to find these days.

P. Breathnach · 05-09-2013 04:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Genuine Gaeltachts are very hard to find these days.

Sure. But not impossibly so.

Davidius · 05-09-2013 06:14PM

Wikipedia generally doesn't give Irish names unless the name is in popular use or is given by the person in question. This is far from militant Gaelgóirism, it's a pretty standard Wikipedia practice. If anything they are actually somewhat resistant to appending it, and often default to English names for historical Irish people who didn't speak English at all.

With respect to somebody using their Irish name: Mandating that somebody's only real name is their legal/birth name is just silly. It's not as though people didn't have names before writing or documentation. The act of gaelicising (which often means de-anglicising an ancestral name) is a legitimate cultural practice.

COYVB · 05-09-2013 07:58PM

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Whatever about wikipedia it is fierce handy to have your name written in Irish on FB and Twitter so recruiters and companies can't find you...

Or just put your profile onto private?

feargale · 05-09-2013 10:03PM

An Coilean wrote: »

There are many Historical Irish figures who are referenced in books, source material etc by their Irish name, even though the English version of their name might be more commonly used when discussing them today.
Michael Collins for example was commonly refered to and indeed signed stuff using the Irish version of his name though today it is quite uncommon to hear him refered to as anything other than Michael Collins today.
It may be the case that someone will come accross a historical figure who is referenced using the Irish version of their name and would then go looking up further information on them using that version, this being reflected in a wikipedia article about them is just common sense.

A non-Irish OP asked a question in a non-controversial way and it seems to me that the above post answers it concisely and correctly. I did a spot check, of O'Connell, Parnell, Lemass, Davis, Beckett, Walton, Heaney, Yeats, Carson, Best, Katie Taylor, Delany, Paisley, Shaw, Cusack and Hyde. The Irish version was given only re Cusack and Hyde. As Coilean suggests this would assist those researching Hyde or Cusack.But some are not content with that. We have had allegations of people with an agenda inserting this info to make a point, the very thing some people unsympathetic to Irish have done here. Perhaps it has escaped these people that Wiki's editorial policy is very strict in the matter of making points. Of course, it is open to those people to complain to Wiki about the inclusion of Irish names. Why haven't they done so? It is also open to those who have been called Padraig instead of Paddy in school, and who carry the resulting scars through life, to go to the European Court of Human Rights. Please do. Because it has been harped on more than once in these threads and some of us are beginning to feel your pain.

feargale · 05-09-2013 10:50PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

why can't all the gaelgoirs just die already

I was at a funeral service on the mainland recently where half the attendance consisted of Aran Islanders, nothing to do with language, just that the deceased was for other reasons well-known and respected by them. Irish was to be heard all around me, but even when others spoke to them in Irish they invariably replied in English, undoubtedly out of politeness. Sir Digby's crass post is a savage insult to those good people. And some people would have you believe that all the extremists and bigots are Irish speakers!

"Irish" names on wikipedia

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