"Irish" names on wikipedia

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

Hands up all of you who refer to Peter the Great as Pyotr Velikiy

Very few but if Pyotr introduced himself to me I would not call him Peter!

Míshásta

purplepanda wrote: »

How do you translate names like Wickham, Pettitt, Sunderland, Devereux, Sutton Codd, Neville / Reville Flood, Stamp or Chin into Irish?

Even better try Cromwell, Ireton or Tottenham? :pac:

Well you may be confused.

Do you know anything of your history? Names have been hopping from Irish to English, and English to Irish on this island for 800 years.

I don't know if you're really looking for an answer to your questions - but here goes. There are various ways names are changed from one language to another: a translation of the meaning, a simple change of orthography, or a change of pronunciation to suit the second language and a suitable spelling.

As I pointed out in another post it is not nowadays the convention to change names from another language, but it could be done. Of the list you gave there are already long established Irish forms of some.

Neville for instance could have come from the original Irish "Ó Nía" or it could be the English surname "Neville" which actually comes from the French Neue Ville.

Devereux derives from Norman French as well "De Evreux " - Irish form "Déarbhrús"

Cromwell has been "Cromaill" to Irish speakers since his famous visit to our fair isle some time ago.

"Chin" - I assume you're talking about our friend down in the Chinese. I wonder how they anglicised that? But if you wanted an authentic Irish version I suppose you could go with "Ór" as the name means "gold"

sasta le

Noticed this trend on Facebook people using there irish names.Why???

ceegee

sasta le wrote: »

Noticed this trend on Facebook people using there irish names.Why???

Potential employers googling them wont find photos of them smashed/misbehaving

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Very few but if Pyotr introduced himself to me I would not call him Peter!

So would I. A thread ran recently on this issue of teachers imposing Irish names on kids. Someone made the point that e.g. if your name were Michael you would probably be called Michel in a French class and someone countered that that's ok, but you would be entitled to your chosen name outside of class. I think both points taken together adequately address that particular issue. It'a about respect for one's wishes, something we haven't been very good at in the past.
There is in this thread a second issue, the fact that some people seem to be upset at Irish translations of Irish peopke's names in Wiki. If I got upset at the dissemination in Wikipedia of information that does not interest me, a great deal of Wikipedia would have to be deleted to pacify me. Respect is a right, and also an obligation, and not just to those we agree with.

Míshásta

feargale wrote: »

Hands up all of you who refer to Peter the Great as Pyotr Velikiy

And who calls Charlemagne "Karl der Große"?

sasta le

ceegee wrote: »

Potential employers googling them wont find photos of them smashed/misbehaving

Could find them with email search?
I think it a snob thing too for some

xrob

wazky wrote: »

GRA (Gaelgoir Reunification Army) do it.

They also place Gaelgoirs from the "Whest" onto TV for propaganda purposes.

ARE THEY FROM CASHELBAR

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

So would I. A thread ran recently on this issue of teachers imposing Irish names on kids. Someone made the point that e.g. if your name were Michael you would probably be called Michel in a French class and someone countered that that's ok, but you would be entitled to your chosen name outside of class. I think both points taken together adequately address that particular issue. It'a about respect for one's wishes, something we haven't been very good at in the past.
There is in this thread a second issue, the fact that some people seem to be upset at Irish translations of Irish peopke's names in Wiki. If I got upset at the dissemination in Wikipedia of information that does not interest me, a great deal of Wikipedia would have to be deleted to pacify me. Respect is a right, and also an obligation, and not just to those we agree with.

But what about in class when the student doesn't like their name to be translated? Surely then it's wrong for the teacher to insist?

COYVB

Your name is what's on your birth cert. If it says David on there, your name in Irish is David, not Daithi

Maximus Alexander

This reminds me of one of my pet hates. Irish people, who don't speak a word of Irish, using their "Irish name" on Facebook.

That's not your name pal.

awec

feargale wrote: »

Ask your solicitor to tell you about Deed Poll. Even that isn't necessary. How many people do you know who were christened say Patrick James and are known to all and sundry as James or Jim?

I am not talking about people who change their name through deed poll, I thought that was obvious?

P. Breathnach

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

This reminds me of one of my pet hates. Irish people, who don't speak a word of Irish, using their "Irish name" on Facebook.

That's not your name pal.

It is, if you want it to be. Just as you are entitled to call yourself Maximus Alexander here, whatever your birth certificate says.

I suggest that you find a more worthwhile pet hate.

Maximus Alexander

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I suggest that you find a more worthwhile pet hate.

Not to worry, I have tons of them. I don't think pet hates are ever worthwhile though.

Victor

feargale wrote: »

Hands up all of you who refer to Peter the Great as Pyotr Velikiy

Only the ship.

Míshásta

awec wrote: »

I find this pretty weird / outright nuts tbh.

I don't think you can just translate your name to Irish and then pretend that's your name. The opposite doesn't work either.

A name is a name, it is exactly the same in every language. If you're called John then you're called John in English, Irish, French, German, Russian etc. It doesn't magically change to Sean at any point.

Why do you find a common custom 'nuts'?

How many Edwards are called Ted. Jack used to be a nickname for people called John. James can be Jim etc.

There's a certain irony in the example of the name 'John' you used. In many European languages they have difficulty pronouncing 'J' as in English. If they tried to say 'John' it would sound more like our 'Seán'

awec

Míshásta wrote: »

Why do you find a common custom 'nuts'?

How many Edwards are called Ted. Jack used to be a nickname for people called John. James can be Jim etc.

There's a certain irony in the example of the name 'John' you used. In many European languages they have difficulty pronouncing 'J' as in English. If they tried to say 'John' it would sound more like our 'Seán'

I think you're mixing up nicknames and this notion of a name having an irish "version".

Names don't have "versions". A name is a name - it doesn't translate.

John and Sean are two completely distinct names.

If you are born Sean, and that is the name you were given then your name is Sean. If you move to England your name doesn't magically morph to John. If instead of Sean, you decide to call yourself Horatio that doesn't magically mean your name is Horatio.

Míshásta

COYVB wrote: »

Your name is what's on your birth cert. If it says David on there, your name in Irish is David, not Daithi

It may be the name on your birth cert. but it's not your name in Irish anymore than it's your name in Russian or Greek.

It was the custom not too long ago to record names on birth certs in English in Irish speaking parts of the country even if the English name was never used in the community. Was the name on the birth cert. their real name?

awec

Míshásta wrote: »

It may be the name on your birth cert. but it's not your name in Irish anymore than it's your name in Russian or Greek.

Yes it is. It's David in Irish, Russian and Greek. And every other language.

That is exactly the point.

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But what about in class when the student doesn't like their name to be translated? Surely then it's wrong for the teacher to insist?

Firstly I think that's extremely precious and nit picking. If Johnny doesn't want to be called Juan in a Spanish class what on earth is he studying Spanish for? I sstudied a language in schoo,. The teacher always called me by that language's version of my name. Every day we started by writing the day, date, month and year on our notebooks. I have forgotten alot but I'll never forget how to date something, or how to say my name in that language.
Secondly, I thought the teacher was the boss in class, but admittedly it's a while since I was in school and from what I hear and read that may now be modified in some places, or even bloody well turned upside down.

feargale

COYVB wrote: »

Your name is what's on your birth cert. If it says David on there, your name in Irish is David, not Daithi

Wrong. Your name is what you wish to be called.

Maximus Alexander

feargale wrote: »

Wrong. Your name is what you wish to be called.

Wrong. That's your nickname.

awec

feargale wrote: »

Wrong. Your name is what you wish to be called. You called.

No it isn't. Your name is what is on the documentation that you must present when you have to properly identify yourself.

Your passport will display your actual name - if your passport says your name is James then you aren't going to book plane tickets under the name Jim or any other nickname.

You can call yourself whatever you wish but that doesn't change what your name is. If you actually want to change your name you must do it via deed poll.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

why can't all the gaelgoirs just die already

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

Firstly I think that's extremely precious and nit picking. If Johnny doesn't want to be called Juan in a Spanish class what on earth is he studying Spanish for? I sstudied a language in schoo,. The teacher always called me by that language's version of my name. Every day we started by writing the day, date, month and year on our notebooks. I have forgotten alot but I'll never forget how to date something, or how to say my name in that language.

We had to learn Irish.

feargale wrote: »

Secondly, I thought the teacher was the boss in class, but admittedly it's a while since I was in school and from what I hear and read that may now be modified in some places, or even bloody well turned upside down.

A person's name and identity is by definition a very important part of who they are. A teacher or any other person for that matter has no right to call the child by a name they do not want to be called.

By your logic if you were working for me I could call you anything I like because I'm your boss in the workplace.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

why can't all the gaelgoirs just die already

They will eventually.

feargale

wazky wrote: »

GRA (Gaelgoir Reunification Army) do it.

They also place Gaelgoirs from the "Whest" onto TV for propaganda purposes.

Have you a problem with the West too? Are you one of the people who refers to Gaelic football as "bogball"?

Míshásta

awec wrote: »

Names don't have "versions". A name is a name - it doesn't translate.

John and Sean are two completely distinct names.

.

John, English version/form/translation of Jean

Jean, French version/form/translation of Juan

Juan, Spanish version/form/translation of Ivan

Ivan, Russian version/form/translation of Hans

Hans, German version/form/translation of Evan

Evan, Welsh version/form/translation of blah, blah, blah......

And it's nearly one am.

Iwasfrozen

@feargale, Actually I had an Irish teacher who used to insist on calling us by the translation of our names no matter how much I wouldn't respond to him. Anyway I kicked up a fuss with the principal and the teacher dropped it. Obviously didn't think it was worth the effort.

Míshásta

feargale wrote: »

Have you a problem with the West too? Are you one of the people who refers to Gaelic football as "bogball"?

No doubt. And of course can never write "Irish speaker" without adding "extremist" or "fanatic"

Iwasfrozen

Míshásta wrote: »

No doubt. And of course can never write "Irish speaker" without adding "extremist" or "fanatic"

If you didn't go around changing people's names they might not call you a fanatic.