Ladies your opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes

MaxWig · 30-08-2013 03:09PM

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

The myth that's been propagated by the internet is that there are sex-slaves in Ireland, and a considerable amount of them at that.

Carl it is pretty well known that there are trafficked sex slaves in Ireland.

And prostitutes that are tied to pimps and crime lords for fear of God knows what.

It is not a myth.

This is the problem with this debate.

The above is not a myth.

That there are scummy punters is not a myth.

That there are pleasant or respectful punters is not a myth.

That there are prostitutes operating freely, and contently is not a myth.

That there are prostitutes operating to feed crack-cocaine and heroin habits is not a myth.

That there are prostitutes who make very little money is not a myth.

That there are prostitutes who make reasonably big amounts of money is not a myth.

All true.

None mutually exclusive of the others

30-08-2013 03:20PM

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

You think some customers at Tesco or any other establishment providing any kind of service aren't disrespectful people too? What do you mean "as anyone would like to think.", most feminist-leaning individuals in this thread clearly want punters to be nothing but crude, abusing cretins in order to moralize them.

The average escort gets 4 - 6+ customers a day, yet only gets at most a couple of reviews a month. So only a tiny minority of punters are leaving reviews, and the vast majority of these reviews do not display any sort of malice whatsoever. Escorts provide a service and reviews are an excellent way of evaluating which escort will provide a good service rather than a bad one.

That's a massive assumption on your part, and one I'd say is inaccurate. Most feminists on this thread seem to have rather disparate opinions on the industry.

Also prostitution includes but is not limited to escorting.

I also think the moralising and preaching on this thread isn't coming from the people you're alluding to.

With that, I'm out. Another thread in the LL ruined.

30-08-2013 03:25PM

Mod

CarlDunn1979 has been permanently banned from the Ladies' Lounge and will not be able to respond to your posts.

strobe · 30-08-2013 05:48PM

mariaalice wrote: »

MaxWig, look at the escorts Ireland site and see what you think you self, look at how the women are reviewed and how many reviews some "punter" put up then tell us what you think.

The vast majority seem to read along the lines of "all services stated were on offer. Photos are genuine. More expensive than others but price is justified" etc.

I'm not sure what the issue is with the idea of reviews tbh.

Is it that they aren't being spoke about in a personal way? "Mary had a lovely sense of humour and..."

Take a look a tradsemen.ie or similar sites...

The Th!ng · 30-08-2013 08:43PM

Recently a bill in the Scottish parliament to criminalise the purchase of sex was defeated. I went looking around for some links on the issue when I found a letter from a sex worker responding to Rhoda Grant's proposed bill. It makes for interesting reading if anyone is interested.

http://prostitutescollective.net/2012/12/19/response-to-rhoda-grant-msp%E2%80%99s-proposal-to-criminalise-the-purchase-of-sex-in-scotland-by-amy-vergnes-administrator-of-saafe-info/

Pug160 · 30-08-2013 10:43PM

Candie wrote: »

Here's an interesting article from The Guardian from 2010, with a link to the research it references at the top of the article

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Be warned, it's not nice reading.

You might want to do a background check on the author of that article.

It's probably fair to say that she's a little bit biased when it comes to topics like that.

fits · 31-08-2013 04:38PM

Why are these questions never posed in something like the gentlemans club?

I don't like prostitution and I don't have to like it. When you enter into these threads this type of opinion of prostitution is often attacked.

I think some men could do with asking themselves hard questions and soul searching as to why some men seem to think it is ok.

cantdecide · 31-08-2013 05:09PM

fits wrote: »

Why are these questions never posed in something like the gentlemans club?

Nothing stopping you posing over there.

fits wrote: »

I don't like prostitution and I don't have to like it

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

fits wrote: »

When you enter into these threads this type of opinion of prostitution is often attacked.

Can it not be concluded that other peoples' opinions aren't valid? Plenty grey area on this thread between the black and white stance you have taken. For both genders, I would add.

fits wrote: »

I think some men could do with asking themselves hard questions and soul searching as to why some men seem to think it is ok.

What exactly do you mean by this? I'm not sure that garnishing your sentences with "some" a couple of times does enough to disspell that what you're implying is that men that don't completely disagree with prostitution in it's entirety, all the time have issues with their moral compass. I believe that this is what you're implying. Am I wrong?

Do you not differentiate between agreeing with something and maybe not disagreeing with some of it some of the time? What would you say to a woman that has a more greyish stance?

PS- you don't know my opinion on prostitution at this stage.

fits · 31-08-2013 05:41PM

cantdecide wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by this? I'm not sure that garnishing your sentences with "some" a couple of times does enough to disspell that what you're implying is that men that don't completely disagree with prostitution in it's entirety, all the time have issues with their moral compass. I believe that this is what you're implying. Am I wrong?

I am implying that there are serious ethical issues with prostitution. It isn't women who use prostitutes as a whole, its men who drive the industry. And yet I have never seen a good examination of it from a male point of view. It is seen somehow as a women's issue, a feminist issue. EG in the guardian Why isn't it men asking why men use prostitutes?

As for that other forum I don't post over there as it is very unwelcoming.

Do you not differentiate between agreeing with something and maybe not disagreeing with some of it some of the time? What would you say to a woman that has a more greyish stance?

PS- you don't know my opinion on prostitution at this stage.

You don't really know mine either. As regards legalisation of it, I am undecided.

B0jangles · 31-08-2013 06:29PM

cantdecide wrote: »

Nothing stopping you posing over there.

Not true. I've more than once seen women told off by mods over there for posting in, say the "Sexism" thread for disregarding the fact that it's the Gentleman's Lounge and thus specifically aimed and seeking the opinion of men.

(Which is fair enough in my opinion, I just wish the same courtesy was more regularly enforced over here)

Yamanoto · 31-08-2013 07:28PM

Candie wrote: »

Here's an interesting article from The Guardian from 2010, with a link to the research it references at the top of the article

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Be warned, it's not nice reading.

Hmm...

Blindel's a controversial figure to say the least.

Her previous report for the Eaves / Poppy project (The Big Brothel Report) was labelled 'inaccurate' & 'unethical' by 27 leading academics involved in international sex-work research. Its methodology was also heavily criticised. I wouldn't discount what you've linked to above out of hand, but you've gotta be wary of someone who's habitually accused of using sex research as a means of political propaganda.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/oct/03/research.women

GalwayGuy2 · 31-08-2013 09:46PM

Not true. I've more than once seen women told off by mods over there for posting in, say the "Sexism" thread for disregarding the fact that it's the Gentleman's Lounge and thus specifically aimed and seeking the opinion of men.

(Which is fair enough in my opinion, I just wish the same courtesy was more regularly enforced over here)

Hmmm, do you think you're being told off because of your sex, or because of what you're posting?

I'd like to say that I disagree with this gender segregate approach. I wouldn't have a problem with a single sexism thread, but I would expect my definition of sexism to be questioned and debated.

But whatever, the damage is done.

Tbh, this whole thread is just turning into a re-run of any thread on prostitution.

Tom M · 31-08-2013 11:09PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

Hmm...

Blindel's a controversial figure to say the least.

Her previous report for the Eaves / Poppy project (The Big Brothel Report) was labelled 'inaccurate' & 'unethical' by 27 leading academics involved in international sex-work research. Its methodology was also heavily criticised. I wouldn't discount what you've linked to above out of hand, but you've gotta be wary of someone who's habitually accused of using sex research as a means of political propaganda.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/oct/03/research.women

Do you have any criticism of her views yourself. So far all you've let us know is people have disagreed with her viewpoint, that does nothing to prove her views are flawed.

Caonima · 01-09-2013 05:26AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Not true. I've more than once seen women told off by mods over there for posting in, say the "Sexism" thread for disregarding the fact that it's the Gentleman's Lounge and thus specifically aimed and seeking the opinion of men.

(Which is fair enough in my opinion, I just wish the same courtesy was more regularly enforced over here)

Being my first time in this forum, I was shocked to see one of the earlier posters, CarlDunn1979, being banned for saying something pretty innocuous (even if it was juvenile) and having one of the other posters, Candie, pull a strop at it.

I've checked the charter here and it does say male opinions are welcome, but shouldn't be the central focus, which is fair enough.

I think the mods of these respective forums should have a chat about this, as it seems like a turf war going on between the Ladies' and Gentlemen's lounges.

fits · 01-09-2013 06:47AM

Girls going wild in red light district.

http://www.upworthy.com/who-doesnt-like-to-watch-half-naked-girls-dancing-these-guys-after-they-see-why-its-happening

Sauve · 01-09-2013 08:33AM

Mod

This is not the place to make petty digs at the moderation of this or any other forum. It's unfair, and dragging the thread off-topic.
If you have a problem with a decision or way of doing things in here, feel free to take it up with the moderators or Cmods. There is also a feedback thread stickied at the top of this forum.

B0jangles · 01-09-2013 10:05AM

Apologies, I reread what I wrote and is does come across as a dig at tLL mods, which is not what I intended.

CK73 · 01-09-2013 09:00PM

claypigeon777 wrote: »

Most prostitutes are the victims of years of child sexual abuse, are drug or alcohol dependent or have been forced into sex slavery by criminals for a combination of all three. Prostitution is therefore rape and sexual exploitation of women.
Any man who uses a prostitute is a rapist and a scumbag.
Consider the life of a prostitute who is being forced to have sex with dozens of men day after day.
How about if it was your sister, daughter, friend etc etc?
Many of these prostitutes are kept in line through fear and violence and many of them are murdered by pimps or by men who feel they have entitlement to have sex.
That is what prostitution is really about.
Men who feel they have an entitlement to defile women.
The hypocrisy involved is also revolting.
Women are seen as "whores" and "dirty" while men are seen as legends for how many women they can have sex with.
I am a man and I would sooner be celibate than use a prostitute like a piece of meat.

I'd love to know where you get these hard facts from, as I assume they are hard facts? I mean you wouldn't just assume this from what you read in the papers would you?

Did you know that there were just 7 cases of 'possible' trafficking in Ireland last year? The stats are out there if you care to ask for them from the authorities. It's much better to go direct than rely on hearsay.

Many Sex Workers are not in the situation you have discussed and many are educated up to or beyond degree level, with other careers behind or in front of them.

Sex Work is not all about infidelity either. People have a habit of judging others by their own lifestyles and standards. They forget that some are not in relationships, some are disabled, some are working on their careers and not in a position to be in a relationship and don't want one night stands and some may be married on paper, but may not have had as much as a hug for several years within that marriage.

Humans need interaction, we were designed to be sociable creatures. It's not all about 'using' people, it's about closeness, being able to feel like a whole person. Sex Workers are not 'used', they are 'booked' and provide 'time' that many don't otherwise get to feel, 'alive' and not just existing.

I'm sure my words will be twisted, as anything remotely pro Sex Workers always is, but I am tired of hearing all the anti and how easily the positives and real stats are ignored.

CK73 · 01-09-2013 09:11PM

starling wrote: »

Yeah, but a person working as a cleaner has legal rights and protections, whereas a prostitute is basically on her own as far as any crimes committed against her. If she gets raped she's going to be afraid to go to the police in case she's the one who ends up being arrested. The chances of her complaint being taken seriously are also pretty low.

I don't have a problem with sex work in theory. If you choose to do it of your own free will then I've no right to judge you. But in practice it's often very problematic and dangerous. There are people who think that because they're paying, they don't have to treat a sex worker like a human being at all, and there so many scumbags who profit off sex work like pimps and traffickers who are just the lowest of the low IMO. It's often the last resort of someone desperate for money as opposed to a genuine choice.

If you go somewhere like that bunny ranch place in America where the business is run legally and safely, that's one thing, but if you go to a random prostitute or brothel where the workers have been trafficked or otherwise forced into it then yeah, you're basically a rapist.

At the moment the way the law stands if a Sex Worker is raped, she can and will go to the Police and they (in some areas more than others) can be very supportive and helpful. However, if the law changes and clients become criminals, this will change, as they won't be able to admit what they are doing, for fear of being targeted or run out of their accommodation, as landlords will also be targeted.

Currently if a client feels a lady he has met may be trafficked he can ring a hot line and make an anonymous call to make the Police aware. If the Swedish model is adopted in Ireland, this link will cease to exist and the 'real' trafficked people will be even more vulnerable, as clients will be too scared to pick up the phone.

It can only make the situation worse and more so for the few poor unfortunate people who are working against their will. As they will be driven even further underground where their voices will never be heard.

MaxWig · 03-09-2013 10:32AM

The Th!ng wrote: »

Recently a bill in the Scottish parliament to criminalise the purchase of sex was defeated. I went looking around for some links on the issue when I found a letter from a sex worker responding to Rhoda Grant's proposed bill. It makes for interesting reading if anyone is interested.

http://prostitutescollective.net/2012/12/19/response-to-rhoda-grant-msp%E2%80%99s-proposal-to-criminalise-the-purchase-of-sex-in-scotland-by-amy-vergnes-administrator-of-saafe-info/

Always amazed how such posts are never responded to.

Hi The Th!ng, I guess the silence says it all.

Kinda deafening

CK73 · 03-09-2013 12:29PM

fits wrote: »

Why are these questions never posed in something like the gentlemans club?

I don't like prostitution and I don't have to like it. When you enter into these threads this type of opinion of prostitution is often attacked.

I think some men could do with asking themselves hard questions and soul searching as to why some men seem to think it is ok.

I don't like football, but I don't ask for it to be scraped under the carpet or hidden from view.

These are real issues that impact on people's lives, be that positively or negatively, so why shouldn't they be discussed freely? Also if in the Gentleman's club, how do the ladies get to share their opinion? Is that not a tad sexist exclude the gender that most people associate Sex Work with?

Lastly... What about the women that think it is ok?

fits · 03-09-2013 08:08PM

So first we have prostitution being compared to massage and now football. It is not comparable to either. Like I said before.. I am not convinced prohibition is the way forward but I reserve the right to dislike an industry which thrives on exploitation of vulnerable people (of any gender). And no matter what argument you try and put forward that will remain the truth.

I never said it should not be discussed here but that I would also like to see an honest discussion of it in a male dominated forum. After all men are the consumers of prostitution. If there was no demand, it wouldn't happen and I don't think people (men or women) would be mourning its loss as a career option.

CK73 · 03-09-2013 09:14PM

fits wrote: »

So first we have prostitution being compared to massage and now football. It is not comparable to either. Like I said before.. I am not convinced prohibition is the way forward but I reserve the right to dislike an industry which thrives on exploitation of vulnerable people (of any gender). And no matter what argument you try and put forward that will remain the truth.

I never said it should not be discussed here but that I would also like to see an honest discussion of it in a male dominated forum. After all men are the consumers of prostitution. If there was no demand, it wouldn't happen and I don't think people (men or women) would be mourning its loss as a career option.

Well I would be, as it would be taking away my current occupation and I think many like me would too, which is why they are fighting to stop the Swedish model coming through and get their voices heard. Who has the right to tell another human being how they should live their life, as long as they are hurting no one else and consenting adults?

Oh and I have a degree and a post grad. I have never smoked or taken drugs and I may have a glass of wine at the end of the day when I put my feet up and no I am not unique, as I have many friends in the same occupation in similar situations to myself. You see we choose this occupation, as others may choose to work in the hotel industry or factories, which are the 2 other industries that have far more trafficking than Sex Work, but I don't see anyone trying to close their industries down.

Of course it is wrong to take it to a male dominated forum. Men talking about a predominantly female dominated industry and deciding if it should be allowed or not? Is that really what the suffragettes died for? I don't think so. Yet again the voice of the Sex Worker would be ignored.

citytillidie · 03-09-2013 09:46PM

fits wrote: »

Why are these questions never posed in something like the gentlemans club?

I don't like prostitution and I don't have to like it. When you enter into these threads this type of opinion of prostitution is often attacked.

I think some men could do with asking themselves hard questions and soul searching as to why some men seem to think it is ok.

Can i ask you your views on woman using gigolos, there was a tv show done about it and it seemed to be fine for woman to be using them but then that was in Las Vegas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigolos

Czarcasm · 03-09-2013 10:06PM

CK73 wrote: »

Well I would be, as it would be taking away my current occupation and I think many like me would too, which is why they are fighting to stop the Swedish model coming through and get their voices heard. Who has the right to tell another human being how they should live their life, as long as they are hurting no one else and consenting adults?

CK with the greatest of respect to you personally, but your profession isn't actually a profession, as you don't need any qualifications to become a sex worker, and there are no standards or certificates of competency you can achieve in sex work. But the biggest difference is that society generally has no respect for your current occupation.

Oh and I have a degree and a post grad. I have never smoked or taken drugs and I may have a glass of wine at the end of the day when I put my feet up and no I am not unique, as I have many friends in the same occupation in similar situations to myself. You see we choose this occupation, as others may choose to work in the hotel industry or factories, which are the 2 other industries that have far more trafficking than Sex Work, but I don't see anyone trying to close their industries down.

The exploitation of employees in the above two industries you mention are much easier to stamp out than exploitation in sex work because the law has the power to close down the hotel or the factory. If they close down a brothel, the owner can open a new one ten yards down the road and carry on where they left off. Sexploitation is much harder than just employment law could ever cover and I think you're being facetious to try and compare the two.

Of course it is wrong to take it to a male dominated forum. Men talking about a predominantly female dominated industry and deciding if it should be allowed or not?

And your customers are predominantly...?

This is why any discussions regarding sex work should include the opinions of it's predominantly male service users in a predominantly male oriented industry.

Is that really what the suffragettes died for? I don't think so.

Ehh? Women's suffrage was about equality, not exploitation? That was a bit left field!

Yet again the voice of the Sex Worker would be ignored.

At least the affluent sex worker has a voice to be ignored by the wrong audience... the exploited sex worker has no voice, and is ignored by everybody.

EvanCornwallis · 03-09-2013 10:19PM

Cheating happens in ninty percent of relationships I know, through golf and other circles I have a wide number of people I would associate with. Honestly , its worse than ever and only getting more common.

CK73 · 03-09-2013 10:24PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

CK with the greatest of respect to you personally, but your profession isn't actually a profession, as you don't need any qualifications to become a sex worker, and there are no standards or certificates of competency you can achieve in sex work. But the biggest difference is that society generally has no respect for your current occupation.

The exploitation of employees in the above two industries you mention are much easier to stamp out than exploitation in sex work because the law has the power to close down the hotel or the factory. If they close down a brothel, the owner can open a new one ten yards down the road and carry on where they left off. Sexploitation is much harder than just employment law could ever cover and I think you're being facetious to try and compare the two.

And your customers are predominantly...?

This is why any discussions regarding sex work should include the opinions of it's predominantly male service users in a predominantly male oriented industry.

Ehh? Women's suffrage was about equality, not exploitation? That was a bit left field!

At least the affluent sex worker has a voice to be ignored by the wrong audience... the exploited sex worker has no voice, and is ignored by everybody.

I beg to differ. There are far more men and women trafficked and exploited in the hotel industry and factories and I think it totally unjust to suggest being forced to work all hours for next to nothing is an easier or better life for the person doing it.

The fact is that there are raids in brothels and apartments regularly and no trafficked victims are found, because they are a rare beast and you can not blame the entire industry for a few corrupt people. If this were to be made totally legal, it would be a lot easier to police and a lot less interesting for those to take advantage of.

You say it is mainly a male industry and again I beg to differ. The majority of the providers are female, so of course they should be included in this debate. Exclusion is not the answer.

Equality is exactly what I'm talking about. The fact that women are allowed to enjoy their bodies as much as a man may crave to enjoy a female body and if she chooses to make a living in this way, it is her right to do so, as an equal. Why is it always portrayed as the man being a predator and the female as a victim? Can she not be in control of her sexuality? It is rather condescending to assume so.

03-09-2013 11:18PM

CK73 wrote: »

I beg to differ. There are far more men and women trafficked and exploited in the hotel industry and factories and I think it totally unjust to suggest being forced to work all hours for next to nothing is an easier or better life for the person doing it.

The fact is that there are raids in brothels and apartments regularly and no trafficked victims are found, because they are a rare beast and you can not blame the entire industry for a few corrupt people. If this were to be made totally legal, it would be a lot easier to police and a lot less interesting for those to take advantage of.

You say it is mainly a male industry and again I beg to differ. The majority of the providers are female, so of course they should be included in this debate. Exclusion is not the answer.

Equality is exactly what I'm talking about. The fact that women are allowed to enjoy their bodies as much as a man may crave to enjoy a female body and if she chooses to make a living in this way, it is her right to do so, as an equal. Why is it always portrayed as the man being a predator and the female as a victim? Can she not be in control of her sexuality? It is rather condescending to assume so.

Its noting to do with being in control of your own sexuality, its about money and you have picked what you think is a quicker easy way to make money.
I don't have a lot of time for the woman = victim and man = perdition theory either.
How did you become a prostitute.

Czarcasm · 03-09-2013 11:34PM

CK73 wrote: »

I beg to differ. There are far more men and women trafficked and exploited in the hotel industry and factories and I think it totally unjust to suggest being forced to work all hours for next to nothing is an easier or better life for the person doing it.

I'll be perfectly honest CK trafficking isn't really the main focus of my issues with sex work as I know only too well just how little a proportion of sex workers in the sex industry are trafficked. The reason though trafficking statistics are easier to collate in the industries you mention is because those industries aren't as unregulated as the sex industry. It's much harder to pin down a moving target.

The fact is that there are raids in brothels and apartments regularly and no trafficked victims are found, because they are a rare beast and you can not blame the entire industry for a few corrupt people. If this were to be made totally legal, it would be a lot easier to police and a lot less interesting for those to take advantage of.

Making it legal wouldn't do anything to end the exploitation of less affluent sex workers who don't have your education or opportunities, and it wouldn't mean either that at the stroke of a pen all sex workers would suddenly become tax compliant, etc. The vast majority of sex workers don't have the business knowledge to become self-employed, let alone self sufficient, and so they would have to work in legal brothels which would severely curb their earning potential and where they would still be open to exploitation by their employer.

You say it is mainly a male industry and again I beg to differ. The majority of the providers are female, so of course they should be included in this debate. Exclusion is not the answer.

I didn't say it was a mainly male industry, I countered your opinion that it is predominantly a female dominated industry with the fact that it is predominantly a male ORIENTED industry. The majority of your customers are male, but it was rather YOU that was putting forward the notion that the male opinion was irrelevant.

Equality is exactly what I'm talking about. The fact that women are allowed to enjoy their bodies as much as a man may crave to enjoy a female body and if she chooses to make a living in this way, it is her right to do so, as an equal. Why is it always portrayed as the man being a predator and the female as a victim? Can she not be in control of her sexuality? It is rather condescending to assume so.

When CK in all the conversations we've had have I ever portrayed men as being predators and women as victims? It's also very condescending to assume I ever suggested a woman shouldn't be in control of her own sexuality and her own choices.

You are in a minority as a self-employed sex worker with a third level education and clearly the intelligence and the smarts to be self sufficient and to be able to speak for yourself, BUT-

The majority of sex workers have very basic education and are only second level educated on paper. They lack your education and your opportunities and see sex work as easy and fast money and more of it. They think that the fact they enjoy sex is the only qualification they need.

This naivety means they are easily exploitable, that's how they fail in the sex industry, and the same vast majority never move on from that failure, destined to stay at rock bottom. Their future employment prospects after sex work and with little or no education means their future employment prospects are virtually zero.

But you don't have to concern yourself with them because you're doing alright for yourself, even broadening your horizons into new markets! Business is booming for the cream of the crop, but for the vast majority of not so affluent sex workers, well, let's not talk about them, right?

"In control of their sexuality" my ass.

Czarcasm · 03-09-2013 11:49PM

Sonic13579 wrote: »

You do realise all evidence suggests that sex trafficking is extremely rare in The first world.

I realise all too well what the evidence suggests. I'm glad you realise too just how hard it is to quantify the issue when the definition of trafficking itself has so many different meanings depending on who you ask, and even then brothel keepers and sex workers aren't exactly known for their coming forward and admitting that they participate in trafficking or that they were trafficked. It's made all the more harder to quantify because you're trying to pin down a moving target.

So yes, I do realise what the evidence suggests, but I also think that the media and anti sex work agencies tend to blow the issue way out of proportion by focussing solely on the issue of trafficking in relation to sex work.

Ladies your opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes

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